ok I need help, I give up.....

B

berner

New member
I have a 96 4x4 with the 3.4l that I just put 5100 series bilstien struts in the fornt with OME 2" springs and in the rear I have OME 2" springs and OME shocks...... I have been having a problem with getting it aligned first of all... The camber on the passenger side according to the aligment machine says its within .02(pos) of spec and same with the driver side. when I get it home the passenger tire is obviously sticking out on the top and it grabs every line in the road when that tire touches it, especially braking!!!! I have had it aligned by 3 diff shops now. turning out to be very expensive with no help... Also, before I lifted it I had the driveline rebuilt cause I just bought it and wanted it to be in good shape(never should have touched it) I have had the driveline retubed and all new rebuild and rebalanced twice. as soon as I hit 70MPH the truck sounds horrible! I know its the drive line cause it never did this til I messed with it..... Im into this 4runner way too much money now and it seems like everytime I try fix the driveline or the alignment it gets worse..... SO question..... I need a driveline shop and pronto and anyone know whats up with the alignment? no signs of being in a wreck either.

sorry such a long read... Thanks
 
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Sorry you are having so many problems... All of these issues have fixes! They just might take a little time and effort but don't give up, one thing at a time.

Front End: How much did you lift it? If you are at 3" or higher then I would highly recommend getting an adjustable upper control arm like a Light Racing one, or one with some built in adjustment like All-Pro or Camburg. All of these have alignment adjustments built in for being lifted above 2" and will help the shops get you fixed up. Either that or bring your lift down below 2" if you don't have the money to spend on it yet. A lot of these companies that sell the 3" lifts never tell you that it's practically impossible to align correctly after 2" of lift without help from an UCA. There are people that say "I got my 3" lift aligned" but I assure you, just because the tire is straight doesn't mean it's correct or anywhere near factory specs. The UCA will also help you with your steering and get it back to where you can just let go on the freeway and it will track nice and straight.

Drive Line: I am not as versed with drive shafts but it really sounds like your drive shaft angle is messed up because of the height of your lift. As you go higher your pinion angle continues to point down towards the ground more and more because the short upper links can only do so much. Again the magic number of 3" lift, haha. If you are 3" or higher I would highly suggest longer or adjustable upper link arms. Also a longer or adjustable pan hard bar is recommended to center your axle and may help. If you take a tape measure out to your 4runner and just do a simple measurement of your tire from the fender (width not height) you can see if your axle is off to the side one may. It's not an emergency type thing, a lot of people run it like this, but if you are doing new upper links and getting an alignment you might as well do the pan hard bar at the same time to save that money. If you do this you can get your rear diff situated so that the pinon angle is back to factory spec and should really help your drive shaft from making noise and also last longer! Check out [MENTION=98153]MStudt[/MENTION] he has a group buy going on links and is also much more versed on this topic than me and can help with specifics!

Keep posting on here as you fix things. This is great info that helps new people, and if you post your problems and follow through with solutions for everyone to see, it makes it a lot easier for people in the future when they search for answers and can find your thread that has both the problems and the solutions on it!
 
You shouldn't have any kind of drive line issues with a 2" lift and stock drive shaft. The stock shafts on ours come from the factory as double carden, and that should work just fine with about 4" of lift. I'm not totally sold on the fact that it's your shaft though (unless they sold you a single carden). From all the experience I've had with out of balance shafts or poor pinion angles comes a slower speeds. You're also not giving much detail on how it "sounds horrible". Drive shafts don't make sounds unless they're missing needles, caps, or binding up. One thing to look at is your pinion angle. The shop could have made you a crappy single carden shaft, and that would cause issues. Look at the shaft, or take a picture of.
 
sorry for the rant post guys, just super frustrated cause I have been working on this rig for 4 months now and its been rough.

Anyway, went to the driveline shop today and made them go on a ride with me to prove to them my runner is not driving right. we decided we are going to do a straight driveline with no double cardon cause they just cant get it right and the angle of the shaft isn't bad being its only lifted 2"..... so they are atleast trying something...

the alignment shop put the rig back on the rack for me today and we also rechecked it and rechecked it......... they cant find anything wrong so I guess im just going to drive it til the tires wear, if they don't then its an optical illusion and I bad for being such a crappy customer. anyway thanks for the help guys and go from here.

pretty curious to see if the if the straight driveline works or not............
 
berner said:
sorry for the rant post guys, just super frustrated cause I have been working on this rig for 4 months now and its been rough.

Anyway, went to the driveline shop today and made them go on a ride with me to prove to them my runner is not driving right. we decided we are going to do a straight driveline with no double cardon cause they just cant get it right and the angle of the shaft isn't bad being its only lifted 2"..... so they are atleast trying something...

the alignment shop put the rig back on the rack for me today and we also rechecked it and rechecked it......... they cant find anything wrong so I guess im just going to drive it til the tires wear, if they don't then its an optical illusion and I bad for being such a crappy customer. anyway thanks for the help guys and go from here.

pretty curious to see if the if the straight driveline works or not............
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I'm lifted more than 2" with my stock cardan and I don't have any vibration issues. Granted my cardan took a shit and needed rebuilt but that's besides the point. I'm thinking it's either not the driveline or the driveline shop is completely incompetent.
 
berner said:
sorry for the rant post guys, just super frustrated cause I have been working on this rig for 4 months now and its been rough.

Anyway, went to the driveline shop today and made them go on a ride with me to prove to them my runner is not driving right. we decided we are going to do a straight driveline with no double cardon cause they just cant get it right and the angle of the shaft isn't bad being its only lifted 2"..... so they are atleast trying something...

the alignment shop put the rig back on the rack for me today and we also rechecked it and rechecked it......... they cant find anything wrong so I guess im just going to drive it til the tires wear, if they don't then its an optical illusion and I bad for being such a crappy customer. anyway thanks for the help guys and go from here.

pretty curious to see if the if the straight driveline works or not............
Click to expand...

You didn't actually say what the readings were, but .02 OUT of spec is nothing, however I think the spec is .5 Positive to 1.0 negative, so if it is .7 Positive, it would look as you described. If you can do some very simple fab you could check camber with a level. What size wheels and tires are you running. I hate when people say the alignment shop can't solve their issues, it's so simple really.
 
Yeah, the way the suspension set up works you should be using the double cardan joint. To properly use a single joint the pinion and t-case outputs need to be parallel in both planes (longitudinal and horizontal), and should have a very minimal pinion angle change as the suspension cycles. With short upper links, like on these trucks the pinion will point further down as the suspension droops, and thats no bueno with a single joint shaft. With a double joint the pinion should start out pointing at the t-case output.

I would hope the drive shaft shop should know that. This suspension setup needs to run a double jointed shaft. Really toyota engineers had it right, and there is no reason to change it up unless you are building a new suspension setup, IMHO.

Not to be overly technical....
 
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Red October said:
Yeah, the way the suspension set up works you should be using the double cardan joint. To properly use a single joint the pinion and t-case outputs need to be parallel in both planes (longitudinal and horizontal), and should have a very minimal pinion angle change as the suspension cycles. With short upper links, like on these trucks the pinion will point further down as the suspension droops, and thats no bueno with a single joint shaft. With a double joint the pinion should start out pointing at the t-case output.

I would hope the drive shaft shop should know that. This suspension setup needs to run a double jointed shaft. Really toyota engineers had it right, and there is no reason to change it up unless you are building a new suspension setup, IMHO.

Not to be overly technical....
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No, I agree and I have tried to have the shop rebuild my cardon shaft. they balanced and straightened one then I bought one from the junkyard and had them rebuild it and when I hit 70mph this morning(I put it on last night) it started vibrating the truck to death. My truck is a street queen and wont be wheeling much at all except when it snows. That's kinda why I wrote this thread cause I wanted to know if anyone knew of a good driveline shop that can get this driveline right the first time and have no issues.......
 
IBallEngineer said:
You didn't actually say what the readings were, but .02 OUT of spec is nothing, however I think the spec is .5 Positive to 1.0 negative, so if it is .7 Positive, it would look as you described. If you can do some very simple fab you could check camber with a level. What size wheels and tires are you running. I hate when people say the alignment shop can't solve their issues, it's so simple really.
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Well if you can lead me in the right direction on aligning this baby im all game..... Right now I have 255/70.16's on the truck..... I was thinking about it last night and wanted to look up some threads on aligning it myself but I have never done it so I don't know where to start.. It looks pretty dang complicated considering all the adjustments and all and every adjustment affects the other.............
 
Pauly Walnuts said:
I'm lifted more than 2" with my stock cardan and I don't have any vibration issues. Granted my cardan took a shit and needed rebuilt but that's besides the point. I'm thinking it's either not the driveline or the driveline shop is completely incompetent.
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I know its the driveline cause I didn't have any issues until I took it off to change the u joint and ever since then its been a nightmare.... I have over 500 bux into this damn driveline and im still shaking at freeway speed..... If this one vibrates when im done imma get my money back and they can have the damn things and Ill try to find a driveline shop that can actually build me a driveline....... Im pulling my hair out, I kinda wish I would have just gone to Toyota and had them order me a brand new ( ridiculously priced) driveline.....
 
berner said:
Well if you can lead me in the right direction on aligning this baby im all game..... Right now I have 255/70.16's on the truck..... I was thinking about it last night and wanted to look up some threads on aligning it myself but I have never done it so I don't know where to start.. It looks pretty dang complicated considering all the adjustments and all and every adjustment affects the other.............
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Still haven't said what the readings were!

Do you have a level, a nail, a string the width of your truck? You can do it! Now if you have a Caster issue, this gets harder, but if you have a graduated level, we'd be golden. Or an electronic level!

:couch2:
 
IBallEngineer said:
Still haven't said what the readings were!

Do you have a level, a nail, a string the width of your truck? You can do it! Now if you have a Caster issue, this gets harder, but if you have a graduated level, we'd be golden. Or an electronic level!

:couch2:
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sorry about the measurements..... the right front camber is .2 positive. left front .2 positive....... I don't get it cause their machine says it should be golden, but even my girlfriend can see its off....... weird ...... castor on the right is 2.0 and left is 1.9 and toe on both sides says its .14 on both sides. total toe is .28 and steer head is .00 everything is in the green. ill take a pic of the front end tomorrow and post it so you can see it...
 
Are you aware that the pinion needs almost zero angle on it or the double cardan shaft will vibrate? I'm not the first to bring this up..

The most perfectly built/balanced driveshaft in the world will vibrate like crazy if the angles at each end aren't correct.

The devil is in the details with this stuff!

cv_angle.gif
 
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csp said:
Are you aware that the pinion needs almost zero angle on it or the double cardan shaft will vibrate? I'm not the first to bring this up..

The most perfectly built/balanced driveshaft in the world will vibrate like crazy if the angles at each end aren't correct.

The devil is in the details with this stuff!
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This.

Maybe try looking at things that could affect pinion angle change. Like if both of your upper link have worn bushings they could allow the pinion snout to move up and down when the truck is driving, causing drive-line vibes, or t-case/ trans mounts letting them wander around a bit. Things like that will move a good bit under acceleration, engine braking, etc.

:vader:

This kinda stuff can be a battle man. It kinda sounds like something else could be going on, especially if you put a second stock shaft on and had the same problem.
 
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Red October said:
This.

Maybe try looking at things that could affect pinion angle change. Like if both of your upper link have worn bushings they could allow the pinion snout to move up and down when the truck is driving, causing drive-line vibes, or t-case/ trans mounts letting them wander around a bit. Things like that will move a good bit under acceleration, engine braking, etc.

:vader:

This kinda stuff can be a battle man. It kinda sounds like something else could be going on, especially if you put a second stock shaft on and had the same problem.
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I will take a look at the bushings a little bit more.... when I put the new rear springs in I didnt notice anything out of place but I just took a quick glance and threw it back together. I will look a little bit harder....

The driveline shop totally admitted guilt yesterday though.... he put it up on jack stands and ran it @70mph while he checked the undercariage and totally admitted its their problem.. They are trying to make it right.... I am going to call this morning and talk to them about the straight driveline and let them know its probly not the best idea.......

This is bumming me out as we have a road trip next wednesday 8hrs on the road and I need her running like a well oiled machine... damn vehicles anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Glad you hopefully got it figured out. Now you know. Though Id demand a refund for labor and find a competent driveline shop before they screw something up again.
 
If your drive line shop can't figure out a simple Toyota 4runner, one that has been on the road since 1996, then I say try to get your money back and RUN!!! This should be child's play for a shop with any real experience...

Maybe go to the junk yard, get a used drive shaft, service it and give that a try... There are a few guys that part out runners on here too. I am sure they can find you one. There are a lot of things people replace on 3rd gens, and upgrade and all that. But on these rigs, I never see people needing any sort of special drive shafts other than SAS guys. Should be an issue where we just need to go back to Toyota's 101. Look at the very basic stuff (U-Joints, proper service, getting everything clocked correctly), do a good solid job making sure those things are right, and things *should be ok...

Oh and don't let the alignment shop tell you that you are wrong and it's dialed in... If it feels like crap to you, then it's crap! As mentioned above, a simple string and a weight held next to the tire can tell you if your tire is out of alignment or not. The machines are great sometimes, but sometimes you need to follow the KISS method. Also, I know it's expensive, but maybe take it to a reputable Toyota dealer for an alignment.
 
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berner said:
The driveline shop totally admitted guilt yesterday though.... he put it up on jack stands and ran it @70mph while he checked the undercariage and totally admitted its their problem.. They are trying to make it right.... I am going to call this morning and talk to them about the straight driveline and let them know its probly not the best idea....
Click to expand...


If they admit they did something wrong, ask them to explain what it was.
 
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