Questions about alignment and tires

[Dark Lord]

I finished my lift install on Wednesday this week. Here's my setup:

Icon extended travel coilovers with remote reservoirs

Icon 2.0 rear shocks with remote reservoirs

Overland rear springs

Rokmen UCA

SCS F-5 wheels wrapped in Cooper ST Maxx's 255/80-17


After I got everything installed, I took it to a local shop and got an alignment done for $99. The original specs were as follows:

As you can see the passenger side caster was at 2.8. The vehicle did not feel stable at highway speeds. I'm no stranger to driving a lifted vehicle either since I drove a lifted 3rd Gen for years.

I took it back and requested that they increase the caster based on reading I did on this forum and what the Rokmen directions recommend. I requested they get me to 4 degrees or slightly more. They weren't able to get to 4 degrees in the standard UCA position. They were only able to get me to 3.6 on both sides (reason I don't have the print out is because they had printer issues, but they showed me in person).

I don't know anything about alignment. Will I be OK at 3.6, or should I push the issue, move my spacers forward to get an extra degree of caster and set the caster higher? Reason I'm asking is because the UCA bolt was a pain to remove, and if I'm going to do that, I'm just going to pay the shop to do it this time (they said they'd charge me a half hour labor). 3.6 feels OK, but it also leaves more to be desired in my opinion. I don't believe they changed anything else on the sheet, so do those numbers look correct as well?


On a side note, I took my 4Runner to Discount Tire to mount the Cooper's. I'm experiencing a lot of vibrations contributed to the wheel/tire combination. I took it back to get it rebalanced and they tried to tell me the tires will cause vibrations due to the aggressive tread, is that true? My 3rd Gen had Falken Rocky Mountain AT's mounted on the 16" SCS F-5's, which although don't appear to be as aggressive as the Cooper's, they never vibrated. The Discount Tire tech was telling me that the offset of the wheels makes it more difficult to get an accurate balance.

I made them rebalance anyway, and after they finished they told me the fronts were out of balance so they fixed the fronts. I still get the same if not worse vibrations. Should I take it somewhere else, or is this normal for these tires? I'm getting vibration at all speeds if that helps. In fact at slow speed, sometimes it feels like my tires are hitting a small bump every rotation(in this example I'm referring to less than 5MPH stop and go slow roll traffic).

Sorry for the long post, I just need some clarification before I take further action. Any insight is much appreciated! [emoji16]

 

[Vulgarian]

I just had my Icon Stage 7 put on and had my Cooper ST Maxx 255 80 17 put on my stock TEP wheels. I had mine done at Demello but, they took it to Big O for the tire install and alignment. My truck handles differently for sure. It's a little drifty on the steering, but not horrible. I'm going to experiment a bit more.

My tires make no vibrations as yours are but it is pulling to the right and goes back to Big O tomorrow morning to be fixed. They also scratched almost all of my wheels, one being gouged. Describe your concern about the handling. I want to compare notes as we're set up pretty much the same.

 

[05Rrunner]

I would like to see more caster 4+, Also generally we like to add a little more caster .25 or .50 to the passenger-side to account for the crown in the road. That's the problem with all these aftermarket control arms you can't get the caster you need . that's why i use the light racing I have 6° castor and it drives straight and solid . I like to keep the camber zero both sides maybe -1

 

[Dark Lord]

I just had my Icon Stage 7 put on and had my Cooper ST Maxx 255 80 17 put on my stock TEP wheels. I had mine done at Demello but, they took it to Big O for the tire install and alignment. My truck handles differently for sure. It's a little drifty on the steering, but not horrible. I'm going to experiment a bit more.

My tires make no vibrations as yours are but it is pulling to the right and goes back to Big O tomorrow morning to be fixed. They also scratched almost all of my wheels, one being gouged. Describe your concern about the handling. I want to compare notes as we're set up pretty much the same.

Mine doesn't pull either way which is good. Tracks perfectly straight, that's not the issue. It just doesn't feel as planted (I know, lifted vehicle bla bla, but my 3rd Gen felt better and it didn't have Icon suspension). Everything I read said Icon should feel awesome, which it does, but not at all speeds. The steering feels delayed at times, and if I hit a bump sometimes the truck jolts. It doesn't feel safe at times which is far from what I've experienced in the past. It has a flighty and light feeling to it, especially after the first alignment. After I had them change the passenger from 2.8 to 3.6, it improved, but as I said, isn't perfect yet. Maybe I'm not used to it yet and been spoiled by the Limited XREAS??

Yeah one of my wheels was scratched at the shop too.... So when you drive, you don't experience any vibrations at all?

 

[mrevilandy]

Tire pressure? When I had my ko2 put on it was set at 35 n it had crazy vibrations, I'm now at 44 n it has stopped

 

[Vulgarian]

Mine doesn't pull either way which is good. Tracks perfectly straight, that's not the issue. It just doesn't feel as planted (I know, lifted vehicle bla bla, but my 3rd Gen felt better and it didn't have Icon suspension). Everything I read said Icon should feel awesome, which it does, but not at all speeds. The steering feels delayed at times, and if I hit a bump sometimes the truck jolts. It doesn't feel safe at times which is far from what I've experienced in the past. It has a flighty and light feeling to it, especially after the first alignment. After I had them change the passenger from 2.8 to 3.6, it improved, but as I said, isn't perfect yet. Maybe I'm not used to it yet and been spoiled by the Limited XREAS??

Yeah one of my wheels was scratched at the shop too.... So when you drive, you don't experience any vibrations at all?

Your words "flighty and light feeling" sounds like what I'm experiencing. I get this on the freeway. I too am used to an almost sporty feeling response from the KDSS. I get no continuous vibrations but I did get this weird thing off road today that almost felt like the abs vibrating for less than a second. It did it multiple times going around corners or when braking. I gotta say for the money I've shelled out this shouldn't be part of the experience. It's a bit of a letdown. On the bright side, the Icons feel pretty good.

 

[Sleeter]

Your words "flighty and light feeling" sounds like what I'm experiencing. I get this on the freeway. I too am used to an almost sporty feeling response from the KDSS. I get no continuous vibrations but I did get this weird thing off road today that almost felt like the abs vibrating for less than a second. It did it multiple times going around corners or when braking. I gotta say for the money I've shelled out this shouldn't be part of the experience. It's a bit of a letdown. On the bright side, the Icons feel pretty good.

Check your a-arms they might be rubbing, or you could very lightly rubbing on your mudflapps. My K02s slightly rub on my a-arms and mud flaps at certain times.

 

[gm350reratliff]

I finished my lift install on Wednesday this week. Here's my setup:

Icon extended travel coilovers with remote reservoirs

Icon 2.0 rear shocks with remote reservoirs

Overland rear springs

Rokmen UCA

SCS F-5 wheels wrapped in Cooper ST Maxx's 255/80-17


After I got everything installed, I took it to a local shop and got an alignment done for $99. The original specs were as follows:

As you can see the passenger side caster was at 2.8. The vehicle did not feel stable at highway speeds. I'm no stranger to driving a lifted vehicle either since I drove a lifted 3rd Gen for years.

I took it back and requested that they increase the caster based on reading I did on this forum and what the Rokmen directions recommend. I requested they get me to 4 degrees or slightly more. They weren't able to get to 4 degrees in the standard UCA position. They were only able to get me to 3.6 on both sides (reason I don't have the print out is because they had printer issues, but they showed me in person).

I don't know anything about alignment. Will I be OK at 3.6, or should I push the issue, move my spacers forward to get an extra degree of caster and set the caster higher? Reason I'm asking is because the UCA bolt was a pain to remove, and if I'm going to do that, I'm just going to pay the shop to do it this time (they said they'd charge me a half hour labor). 3.6 feels OK, but it also leaves more to be desired in my opinion. I don't believe they changed anything else on the sheet, so do those numbers look correct as well?


On a side note, I took my 4Runner to Discount Tire to mount the Cooper's. I'm experiencing a lot of vibrations contributed to the wheel/tire combination. I took it back to get it rebalanced and they tried to tell me the tires will cause vibrations due to the aggressive tread, is that true? My 3rd Gen had Falken Rocky Mountain AT's mounted on the 16" SCS F-5's, which although don't appear to be as aggressive as the Cooper's, they never vibrated. The Discount Tire tech was telling me that the offset of the wheels makes it more difficult to get an accurate balance.

I made them rebalance anyway, and after they finished they told me the fronts were out of balance so they fixed the fronts. I still get the same if not worse vibrations. Should I take it somewhere else, or is this normal for these tires? I'm getting vibration at all speeds if that helps. In fact at slow speed, sometimes it feels like my tires are hitting a small bump every rotation(in this example I'm referring to less than 5MPH stop and go slow roll traffic).

Sorry for the long post, I just need some clarification before I take further action. Any insight is much appreciated! [emoji16]

You should be OK at 3.6° caster but if it doesn't feel right, take it back.

As for balancing tires, I would recommend they try to Road Force Balance them. I just had my 255/80/17 ST Maxx installed by a mom and pop shop on TE wheels for my 4th gen. These same wheels gave DT fits when I had KO2's installed there. So far my ST Maxx are smooth as butter so it can be done. Have you checked tire pressure? They may be too high. I have mine at 40 and I may drop them a little more. Aggressive tread only makes it more difficult if using a Road Force balancer, it doesn't affect a normal spin balance.

I just had my Icon Stage 7 put on and had my Cooper ST Maxx 255 80 17 put on my stock TEP wheels. I had mine done at Demello but, they took it to Big O for the tire install and alignment. My truck handles differently for sure. It's a little drifty on the steering, but not horrible. I'm going to experiment a bit more.

My tires make no vibrations as yours are but it is pulling to the right and goes back to Big O tomorrow morning to be fixed. They also scratched almost all of my wheels, one being gouged. Describe your concern about the handling. I want to compare notes as we're set up pretty much the same.

Sounds like new wheels are in your future. I would be pissed but shit happens.

I would like to see more caster 4+, Also generally we like to add a little more caster .25 or .50 to the passenger-side to account for the crown in the road. That's the problem with all these aftermarket control arms you can't get the caster you need . that's why i use the light racing I have 6° castor and it drives straight and solid . I like to keep the camber zero both sides maybe -1

This how I would set it up. This guy knows what he talking about ^^^!

Your words "flighty and light feeling" sounds like what I'm experiencing. I get this on the freeway. I too am used to an almost sporty feeling response from the KDSS. I get no continuous vibrations but I did get this weird thing off road today that almost felt like the abs vibrating for less than a second. It did it multiple times going around corners or when braking. I gotta say for the money I've shelled out this shouldn't be part of the experience. It's a bit of a letdown. On the bright side, the Icons feel pretty good.

I would start with checking pressure. As for the ABS kicking in, you may need to recalibrate the Yaw sensor.

 

[Dark Lord]

Check your a-arms they might be rubbing, or you could very lightly rubbing on your mudflapps. My K02s slightly rub on my a-arms and mud flaps at certain times.

Yeah, that's most likely your tires hitting the plastic on your wheel wells or the mud flaps. Removing my mud flaps mostly solved that issue.

 

[wfo9]

It will feel a little better with more caster. At about 4.0 mine drives fine. Some people like a little more + on passenger side, but I don't notice the difference myself. I would install the UCAs in the +1 position.

As for the vibration... sounds more like out of round. Try a road force balance or try returning the tires... Each batch is different. Sometimes you get lucky, other times.... Where did you buy the tires...? The bottom tier retailers often get the bad ones.

 

[Dark Lord]

It will feel a little better with more caster. At about 4.0 mine drives fine. Some people like a little more + on passenger side, but I don't notice the difference myself. I would install the UCAs in the +1 position.

As for the vibration... sounds more like out of round. Try a road force balance or try returning the tires... Each batch is different. Sometimes you get lucky, other times.... Where did you buy the tires...? The bottom tier retailers often get the bad ones.

I bought the tires new on Discount Tire Direct on eBay. Got a great deal on them. Set of five for about $800. What shops use the Road Force?

 

[gm350reratliff]

I bought the tires new on Discount Tire Direct on eBay. Got a great deal on them. Set of five for about $800. What shops use the Road Force?

Road Force locator: GSP9700 Locator

 

[Dark Lord]

Road Force locator: GSP9700 Locator

Thank you sir.

It appears the Discount Tire I took it too has a Road Force. Don't they typically use that for balancing?

 

[wfo9]

I bought the tires new on Discount Tire Direct on eBay. Got a great deal on them. Set of five for about $800. What shops use the Road Force?

Discount has the road force machines, but they never want to use it... It's very labor intensive to do it right...

Go raise hell with them. Tell them you purchased their crappy out of round tires and you want it fixed or a return. They usually offer really good customer service.

For future reference... Try a toyo or nitto tire. You will never have out of round issues with them. Heavy as hell, but smooth as silk.

 

[gm350reratliff]

The DT stores I've been to typically don't use the Road Force balancer unless they encounter a "problem tire/wheel" or the customer demands it. I took my KO2's back a few times for a rebalance before they finally agreed to use the RF machine. It also depends on who is using the machine and how well they have been trained on it.

 

[Dark Lord]

Ahhhh! Very good information. I will try that tomorrow most likely. I appreciate it gentlemen.

[MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] I went with the Cooper's based on the reviews I read about them, and to get the 255/80-17 size tires. Toyo has a great reputation from what I've read. Never tried either brand though unfortunately. I just know I won't get the Falkens ever again since they suck in inclement weather. If the KO2's came in the pizza cutter size, is would have gone with those.

 

[catrains]

Thank you sir.

It appears the Discount Tire I took it too has a Road Force. Don't they typically use that for balancing?

this all came about with the tire change ? if so the tires are the problem.

I admit that Cooper tires are not a brand I use any more. I found these tires are low quality and perform poorly.

as was mentioned the road force balancing is best but the person must be skilled . it is expensive because of the time . the tire shops do not want to use it because , more time is lost profit.

 

[wfo9]

Ahhhh! Very good information. I will try that tomorrow most likely. I appreciate it gentlemen.

[MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] I went with the Cooper's based on the reviews I read about them, and to get the 255/80-17 size tires. Toyo has a great reputation from what I've read. Never tried either brand though unfortunately. I just know I won't get the Falkens ever again since they suck in inclement weather. If the KO2's came in the pizza cutter size, is would have gone with those.

Nothing wrong with cooper, nothing wrong with any brand as long as you get lucky. The mfg process Toyo uses allows them to be 100% consistent... but at the same time... it makes the tires very heavy (that is why I don't run them)

Tires are usually produced in big runs. They test each one for consistency and throw them into batches. Grade A, B, C.... The A Grades go to OEMs and high dollar retail outlets like dealerships... The C grade tires often get special discounts if you know what I mean.

As far as KO2's go. They come in a very similar size. It is listed as 34x10.5 (metric equivalent is 260/80 R17). They measure out at 33.5.

Another thing to consider is your rims. I assume they have a matching center bore 106mm. But I bet they also have acorn style lug seats. This makes them both lug and hub centric in terms of centering the wheel. In theory it should be fine to put them on the balance machine with a cone adapter for the center bore, but I've heard of some people getting better results with a flange adapter that uses the lugs to properly center them. Maybe check with SCS just to make sure the center bore balancing is always adequate for the rims.

Most likely issue is the tires though.

 

[Dark Lord]

As far as KO2's go. They come in a very similar size. It is listed as 34x10.5 (metric equivalent is 260/80 R17). They measure out at 33.5.

Well I was not aware of that.... Oh well, I guess those might be my next tire once these are worn out.

 

[Dark Lord]

@wfo9

I took the 4Runner back to Discount Tire today and requested a Road Force since the Discount Tire I go to was on the Hunter wheel balancer locator. When I got there and they started to rebalance, I noticed the machine they were using wasn't a Hunter Road Force is was a Hunter Quick Match. I looked it up, and it doesn't appear it's the same thing.

Do I specifically need to go to a place with a Road Force, or is the Hunter Quick Match going to be relatively the same thing? It's the GSP9600 not the GSP9700.

After they were done they told me they balanced it differently this time, but I'm still having the same issue.