Questions for manual owners

[nathanroyse]

I just recently swapped my automatic transmission out for a manual 5-speed and it’s doing a few weird things. This is my first manual vehicle so I’m not used to driving one but I don’t think these things are normal.

- Rpm’s will sometimes stay high when cruising downhill in neutral. Around 1,000-1,600rpm even when the car is warm (I cleaned the AIC valve and MAF.)
- Grinding/vibration in clutch only when shifting gears above 3,500rpm (replaced clutch and flywheel)
- Clutch grab point seems to almost change sometimes (new master cyl and slave cyl)
- A lot of heat coming from the center console/gear shift area

Also, if somebody has a picture or can take a picture of how their clutch petal is adjusted that would be greatly appreciated. I know there are instructions but it was hard to get the correct measurements.

What do you guys think?

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Don't know what the issue is but mine isn't doing any of that except it will take a few seconds for the revs to come down if I'm shifting into neutral coming up on a stop light.

 

[pluton]

- Rpm’s will sometimes stay high when cruising downhill in neutral. Around 1,000-1,600rpm even when the car is warm (I cleaned the AIC valve and MAF.)
- Grinding/vibration in clutch only when shifting gears above 3,500rpm (replaced clutch and flywheel)
- Clutch grab point seems to almost change sometimes (new master cyl and slave cyl)
- A lot of heat coming from the center console/gear shift area

I've never owned an automatic trans vehicle, though I've driven zillions of them.
RPMs staying somewhat high during coasting is normal for most Japanese vehicles in the emission control era. One of the advantages of a manual trans is that you can keep the engine engaged to the wheels while going downhill.

Grinding gears is not good. Other than driver error, it's sometimes caused by incomplete disengagement of the clutch. Adjustment at the pedal isn't the only possible cause. I still occasionally grind the gears through inattentive operation.

Changing gears at 3500 RPM is questionable: Is this during upshift or downshift? Are you trying to drive this mini truck as if it is a small, good-handling, "sporty" sedan?

Vibration I assume means *chatter*. It often occurs in the later life of a clutch that's had a hard life. It can also be caused by loose attachment of bell housing to engine and other substandard assembly practices. Remedy is to tighten things up or a new clutch + flywheel...both of decent quality.

I haven't dealt with a variable grab point; Air in the master or line? Clutch line is easy to bleed.

The heat along the center line is normal. Some is radiated heat from engine and trans, but I think It's mostly from hot air from the engine being blown back along the trans tunnel.

 

[St Runner]

Its a good idea to always have it in gear when going downhill. You don't save any fuel in neutral because above 1500 rpm in gear with no throttle the ecu shuts the fuel down in half, giving more engine braking and of course using less fuel. Also it is safer in gear because you know exactly where the shift knob is and a quick shift is easier. Try putting it in 4th or 5th downhill as long as the rpm is above 1500

 

[JohnMc]

I've always noticed that the idle speed on mine will be a bit higher when coasting up to a stop, once the vehicle stops, the idle speed drops down. I'm assuming it's some ECU thing, possibly for emissions so you don't pull as much vacuum on engine braking?

I've had worse bogs and hanging high idles in the past that were related to a dirty MAF, the readings were a bit delayed, so it had lean bogs off idle, and a rich higher idle coming off the throttle. A little MAF cleaner spray (and getting rid of the over oiled K&N filter the previous owner had put on it) fixed that.

Not exactly sure what you're describing in terms of grinding when shifting above 3500 rpm. Is it the gears grinding? Or some noise from the clutch? Manual transmissions are generally somewhat sensitive to oil viscosity for proper syncro operation. Too slippery is bad, not slippery enough is bad, viscosity matters too. And it's a truck transmission, occasionally I'll try to shift mine quickly (usually after I've been snick-snick-snicking through my Miata's 6-spd) and... it just doesn't appreciate it. Shift it slowly and sedately, it's a truck.

I've never really noticed any issues with a varying engagement point. I did replace the master/slave cylinders in mine years ago, the symptom then was that the pedal would occasionally stick DOWN, and I'd awkwardly have to reach my toe under it and pull it upward at a stoplight. I initially replaced the slave, which made a small improvement, replacing the master made it all back to normal.

No unusual amount of heat coming off the center console. I'd wonder if you have the large foam pad that sits on top of the transmission and insulates the two boots (rubber lower and vinyl decorative upper) from the drivetrain. It's fairly large, dense foam, and I'm not sure you can remove or replace it with the transmission in place. But with that not in place, you'll def get more heat and noise.

 

[sportscarfan]

I just recently swapped my automatic transmission out for a manual 5-speed and it’s doing a few weird things. This is my first manual vehicle so I’m not used to driving one but I don’t think these things are normal.

- Rpm’s will sometimes stay high when cruising downhill in neutral. Around 1,000-1,600rpm even when the car is warm (I cleaned the AIC valve and MAF.)
- Grinding/vibration in clutch only when shifting gears above 3,500rpm (replaced clutch and flywheel)
- Clutch grab point seems to almost change sometimes (new master cyl and slave cyl)
- A lot of heat coming from the center console/gear shift area

Also, if somebody has a picture or can take a picture of how their clutch petal is adjusted that would be greatly appreciated. I know there are instructions but it was hard to get the correct measurements.

What do you guys think?

I have a '97 factory 5-speed...

The RPM hanging may be a residual factor from the original automatic config.

I can say that Redline MT-90 trans. fluid did make a world of difference in shifting from when I first bought mine 13 years ago.

As for clutch engagement point - like just about the rest of the 4runner, I have never had a reason to look at or touch it.

 

[Bad Luck]

I just recently swapped my automatic transmission out for a manual 5-speed and it’s doing a few weird things. This is my first manual vehicle so I’m not used to driving one but I don’t think these things are normal.

- Rpm’s will sometimes stay high when cruising downhill in neutral. Around 1,000-1,600rpm even when the car is warm (I cleaned the AIC valve and MAF.)
- Grinding/vibration in clutch only when shifting gears above 3,500rpm (replaced clutch and flywheel)
- Clutch grab point seems to almost change sometimes (new master cyl and slave cyl)
- A lot of heat coming from the center console/gear shift area

Also, if somebody has a picture or can take a picture of how their clutch petal is adjusted that would be greatly appreciated. I know there are instructions but it was hard to get the correct measurements.

What do you guys think?

I have the same "issue" with my rpm's. I never did figure out a cause for it either. Everything seems to be functioning fine. You can check out the video of my rpm's while coasting here: Bad Luck's Boring Build Biography

The grinding/vibration could be a lot of things from user error shifting too fast/not disengaging the clutch fully, worn synchros, not enough shift pressure, gear oil too thin, gear oil too thick, etc. I would suggest MT-90 like others have said and try shifting slower.

I don't have any ideas on the clutch grab point changing.

It's fairly common for the transmission tunnel to be warm. If you are missing the lower shift boot then it will be much hotter than you are used to.

Its a good idea to always have it in gear when going downhill. You don't save any fuel in neutral because above 1500 rpm in gear with no throttle the ecu shuts the fuel down in half, giving more engine braking and of course using less fuel. Also it is safer in gear because you know exactly where the shift knob is and a quick shift is easier. Try putting it in 4th or 5th downhill as long as the rpm is above 1500

I tried driving like that the first few months I had my manual and got worse fuel economy than coasting in neutral. I guess geography probably plays a big part in that. I have a lot of hills that I coast in neutral, and I coast in neutral to stops and turns. To each their own

 

[phattyduck]

Idle while the vehicle is moving will be high - it is part of the ECU programming (even my '89 Camry would do it - and with the '95 GT4 engine and ECU still does it). It is to make shifting back into gear easier/safer for the trans. You generally shouldn't be coasting in neutral anyway... (technically against the law in many places, even) Easiest on the trans is to just keep it in whatever gear (foot off clutch) while braking until it you are going fairly slow (1000-1500 rpm), then go to neutral or maybe 2nd gear for a bit before stopping.

Assuming clutch is working right, crunching gear changes will be 1/3 driver technique (learn to double clutch downshifts, wait correctly on upshifts, etc), 1/3 worn trans, 1/3 fluid... learn to drive 'around' it so you don't hurt your trans more and check different fluids to find one that makes the trans happy.

Make sure the center console has the lower sealing boot in good shape without leaks. There's not reason a manual trans should be hotter than an auto.

-Charlie

 

[nathanroyse]

I've never owned an automatic trans vehicle, though I've driven zillions of them.
RPMs staying somewhat high during coasting is normal for most Japanese vehicles in the emission control era. One of the advantages of a manual trans is that you can keep the engine engaged to the wheels while going downhill.

Grinding gears is not good. Other than driver error, it's sometimes caused by incomplete disengagement of the clutch. Adjustment at the pedal isn't the only possible cause. I still occasionally grind the gears through inattentive operation.

Changing gears at 3500 RPM is questionable: Is this during upshift or downshift? Are you trying to drive this mini truck as if it is a small, good-handling, "sporty" sedan?

Vibration I assume means *chatter*. It often occurs in the later life of a clutch that's had a hard life. It can also be caused by loose attachment of bell housing to engine and other substandard assembly practices. Remedy is to tighten things up or a new clutch + flywheel...both of decent quality.

I haven't dealt with a variable grab point; Air in the master or line? Clutch line is easy to bleed.

The heat along the center line is normal. Some is radiated heat from engine and trans, but I think It's mostly from hot air from the engine being blown back along the trans tunnel.

Thank you for the in-depth response. The grind occurs when upshifting. The car has 33in tires on it so sometimes shifting above 3500rpm is my only chance of making up long hills… lol. It’s like really in the petal though. I hear and feel it from the clutch petal. It has a brand new oem clutch from Aisin and flywheel from a reputable brand off Yotashop.com. I didn’t use any loctite when assembling the bell housing bolts so I will go re-torque them to the best of my abilities.

 

[nathanroyse]

I have the same "issue" with my rpm's. I never did figure out a cause for it either. Everything seems to be functioning fine. You can check out the video of my rpm's while coasting here: Bad Luck's Boring Build Biography

The grinding/vibration could be a lot of things from user error shifting too fast/not disengaging the clutch fully, worn synchros, not enough shift pressure, gear oil too thin, gear oil too thick, etc. I would suggest MT-90 like others have said and try shifting slower.

I don't have any ideas on the clutch grab point changing.

It's fairly common for the transmission tunnel to be warm. If you are missing the lower shift boot then it will be much hotter than you are used to.



I tried driving like that the first few months I had my manual and got worse fuel economy than coasting in neutral. I guess geography probably plays a big part in that. I have a lot of hills that I coast in neutral, and I coast in neutral to stops and turns. To each their own

I am currently running 75w-90 in the transmission, as the owners manual calls for so I dont think that would be a factor. Unfortunately I think one if not more of the bearings inside the transmission are failing because i get a loud whining sound at all times, especially on cold starts. I suppose this could have something to do with it but im not sure. I dont try and shift fast at all, if its above 3500 rpm i can ease on to the clutch as slowly as possible and it grinds in the petal.

 

[nathanroyse]

I have a '97 factory 5-speed...

The RPM hanging may be a residual factor from the original automatic config.

I can say that Redline MT-90 trans. fluid did make a world of difference in shifting from when I first bought mine 13 years ago.

As for clutch engagement point - like just about the rest of the 4runner, I have never had a reason to look at or touch it.

I thought this too but there is nothing left in the car that would make it think that it is still an automatic besides the wiring harness. It would be weird for the manual ecu to still be making it do auto things. As far as the clutch part im more so interested in where the clutch petal sits relative to the floor/brake petal. Right now, mine is slightly higher than the brake petal which seems a little weird.

 

[Bad Luck]

I am currently running 75w-90 in the transmission, as the owners manual calls for so I dont think that would be a factor. Unfortunately I think one if not more of the bearings inside the transmission are failing because i get a loud whining sound at all times, especially on cold starts. I suppose this could have something to do with it but im not sure. I dont try and shift fast at all, if its above 3500 rpm i can ease on to the clutch as slowly as possible and it grinds in the petal.

Grinding felt in the pedal would lead me to suspect the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel.

If you are hearing whining noises at all times then it's not your transmission. Does it ever not whine?

 

[JohnMc]

I thought this too but there is nothing left in the car that would make it think that it is still an automatic besides the wiring harness. It would be weird for the manual ecu to still be making it do auto things. As far as the clutch part im more so interested in where the clutch petal sits relative to the floor/brake petal. Right now, mine is slightly higher than the brake petal which seems a little weird.

Mine is a factory manual, and the idle will hang higher as I'm rolling to a stop, as you slow to zero the idle drops to normal. I think it's part of the ECU programming on all cars, related to the vehicle speed sensor and the engine ECU, and not really anything to do with the transmission. I'm not sure why it does that, but I've certainly noticed mine doing exactly that.

My clutch pedal site even with the brake pedal. I think there's an adjustment between it and the master cylinder - you just want to make sure the pedal comes back off the master cylinder piston by a tiny bit (it needs to come back all the way to interact with the fluid reservoir. I don't think that adjustment controls how far up the pedal comes, though. I think there's a stop on the pedal itself.

 

[gamefreakgc]

These Toyotas have a VERY long pedal travel to disengage the clutch. I was so used to my manual 91 Pickup that when I drove a manual sedan I was shocked at how quickly the clutch disengaged without having to press the clutch pedal nearly as far. This would be my first thought - that and pedal height adjustment. I would adjust it forward just a bit more to be sure that you're getting it 100% disengaged before shifting.

Because of the very long clutch pedal travel it's difficult to shift quickly. It can be done but takes some time to learn. Also I noticed that when downshifting into high RPM (3500+) my manual would also 'lurch' and not like it too much so I learned to really feather it in when down shifting. Your issues to me don't seem like issues at all, just a learning curve.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Mine is a factory manual, and the idle will hang higher as I'm rolling to a stop, as you slow to zero the idle drops to normal. I think it's part of the ECU programming on all cars, related to the vehicle speed sensor and the engine ECU, and not really anything to do with the transmission. I'm not sure why it does that, but I've certainly noticed mine doing exactly that.

My clutch pedal site even with the brake pedal. I think there's an adjustment between it and the master cylinder - you just want to make sure the pedal comes back off the master cylinder piston by a tiny bit (it needs to come back all the way to interact with the fluid reservoir. I don't think that adjustment controls how far up the pedal comes, though. I think there's a stop on the pedal itself.

You also want it to come back off the master cylinder because otherwise it's going to always slightly engage the clutch and wear out your throwout bearing. That's what I was told anyway when I almost decided to go without a spring on my clutch because of those stupid bushings on the torsion spring. Ended up doing the taco linear spring mod.

 

[nathanroyse]

Grinding felt in the pedal would lead me to suspect the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel.

If you are hearing whining noises at all times then it's not your transmission. Does it ever not whine?

The trans was a little difficult to get lined up with engine but I made sure to loctite and torque all clutch/flywheel bolts. Is it easy to misalign something when putting the transmission back on? The whining is all the time except when the clutch petal is pressed in


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[nathanroyse]

Mine is a factory manual, and the idle will hang higher as I'm rolling to a stop, as you slow to zero the idle drops to normal. I think it's part of the ECU programming on all cars, related to the vehicle speed sensor and the engine ECU, and not really anything to do with the transmission. I'm not sure why it does that, but I've certainly noticed mine doing exactly that.

My clutch pedal site even with the brake pedal. I think there's an adjustment between it and the master cylinder - you just want to make sure the pedal comes back off the master cylinder piston by a tiny bit (it needs to come back all the way to interact with the fluid reservoir. I don't think that adjustment controls how far up the pedal comes, though. I think there's a stop on the pedal itself.

I have the petal stop adjustment all of the way out, setting the petal as far downwards as possible but it still sits above the brake petal. When I installed it I drilled the holes in the firewall near perfect since I had a donor car to reference


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[nathanroyse]

These Toyotas have a VERY long pedal travel to disengage the clutch. I was so used to my manual 91 Pickup that when I drove a manual sedan I was shocked at how quickly the clutch disengaged without having to press the clutch pedal nearly as far. This would be my first thought - that and pedal height adjustment. I would adjust it forward just a bit more to be sure that you're getting it 100% disengaged before shifting.

Because of the very long clutch pedal travel it's difficult to shift quickly. It can be done but takes some time to learn. Also I noticed that when downshifting into high RPM (3500+) my manual would also 'lurch' and not like it too much so I learned to really feather it in when down shifting. Your issues to me don't seem like issues at all, just a learning curve.

I hope it’s a learning curve thing as well but I just want to make sure I am setting myself up for success. I have a couple friends who have manual cars and I seem to be able to drive them without complaint. I’ll try adjusting the rod that comes from the master cyl to give it a little more play at the top of the travel


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[Pyral]

Check your clutch pedal spring. When I bought mine, the original was so worn out that it didn't return. Felt like the clutch was going out because it would whine and grab suddenly. Once I replaced the spring the first time it felt great (I did the linear spring mod later)

Which gears are grinding? If it's just 1st or 2nd gear then I'd suspect worn synchro, if it's all of them then it seems unlikely that all of them would be worn. If it goes away with double clutching then that could be an indicator.

Manual 4runners had a foam matting under the shifter boot to insulate the transmission tunnel. I was once adding noise insulation in that area after I had driven, and it was uncomfortable hot to touch. It's normal for heat to come from there, especially if you don't have insulation.


The manual 4runners drive quite well, I came from a manual Jeep which has double the pedal travel (or not far off) so it felt like a downright sports car. I never had problems stalling it or grinding gears when learning, but it took a week for me to get the same level of confidence as I had on the Jeep. I test drove many manual Toyota pickups and 4runners by the time I bought mine though.

 

[pluton]

The whining is all the time except when the clutch petal is pressed in

This is typical for a worn input shaft bearing in the trans. My worn input shaft bearings---once on a Land cruiser, once recently on my present 4Runner--- have produced what I would describe as a whirring sound.

BTW, Toyota says either GL4 gear oil (like Redline MT90) OR GL-5 gear oil is OK in the R150/R151 series transmissions; I've mostly used MT90, but it came with Mobil 1 75W-90, and the service place recently put BG 75W-90 in it, and I have perceived no difference in shifting or synchro behavior. Maybe this trans is less sensitive to trans oil type than the transmissions of yesteryear?