Rear axle seal/bearing replacement

[RS Dude]

Having completed the axle job on the driver's side a few weeks ago, I just finished the passenger side axle the other day. I was surprised to find it too was leaking, but much slower rate, with no oil getting onto the wheel rim and tire, coating only the brake shoes and drum. I find it amazing that both bearings/seals both blew up at the exact same time!!!!:boink:

 

[Drcoffee]

All you need to know is right here

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/114743-possible-solution-leaking-axle-seals.html

 

[Arnezie]

Do the extended breather mod to reduce the chances of it happening again anytime soon.


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[RS Dude]

My bearings died of old age (294k miles) and then they destroyed the seals. The machine shop that pressed the bearings out and in had extensive experience with our axles, doing hundreds per year! Luckily I didn't have a problem with the seal lip riding on the ring bevel rather than in the center of ring. Also, I will be replacing the diff. breather valve because it is cheap and easy to do, although mine does not seem to be clogged. I am a girly-man with 2wd and never go off-roading.:nod:

 

[nobb]

If you're replacing with the new Toyota seal design, the retainer position will have to be adjusted or it will likely leak again. It's not necessary to flip the retainer...it just needs to be positioned 2mm further inboard.

 

[kolelt]

Do the extended breather mod to reduce the chances of it happening again anytime soon.


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Any links to this ?

I only did my passenger side rear wheel bearing/seal. All I replaced was seal and bearing. Drive side is fine.

I think the common side is passanger.

I didn't adjust the retainer position or anything just put it back as it was. Seems fine!

 

[Arnezie]

Any links to this ?

I only did my passenger side rear wheel bearing/seal. All I replaced was seal and bearing. Drive side is fine.

I think the common side is passanger.

I didn't adjust the retainer position or anything just put it back as it was. Seems fine!

http://4runners.org/writeups/typerdiff/index.html




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[DK327]

Do the extended breather mod to reduce the chances of it happening again anytime soon.

Extended breather mod should definitely keep it nice and dry. If you don't offroad or cross high water regularly, I think just replacing the breather should suffice too, although it might eventually get clogged/rusted overtime from exposure like everything else under the truck...

 

[RS Dude]

If you're replacing with the new Toyota seal design, the retainer position will have to be adjusted or it will likely leak again. It's not necessary to flip the retainer...it just needs to be positioned 2mm further inboard.

I talked to three machine shop mechanics who have done several HUNDRED of our Toyota axle bearings about your predicament and they said they have never heard of any problems with the seal lip riding on the bevel. They said they never have any returns with problems of oil seal leakage. It leads me to believe that you may have inadvertently used faulty or damaged components. My original seal lip was riding exactly in the middle of the retainer ring. Also, it is unlikely that the Toyota engineers would redesign the seal lip to ride 2mm closer to the bevel.:wave:

 

[nobb]

I'm not sure if I understand your last sentence. You just said in your posts that you finished your axle job, but it was pressed in a way that the seal is riding on the bevel and now it leaks. Doesn't that just prove that the original retainer position does not work with the new Toyota seal design? You might want to read up more in the Ultimate Axle Seal thread here. It's well known that many people have had their seals leak again by not re-adjusting their retainer. The flipped retainer method works, the only disadvantage is you need to be careful with the install because the chamfered edge is there to aid in the install.

The seal likely will work at first riding on the bevel, but it only takes minor pressure buildup in the axle to cause seepage over time. Not to mention that the beveled edge doesn't have the same smooth machining, it may start chewing the seal. The bevel is only there for the install, it's not meant to be a sealing surface.

If you want to trust what the mechanics say, go ahead. Their definition of not having any problems/returns may only apply to the warranty period of their work (1 year). It takes a while for the minor seepage to leak through to the hubs, cause bearing wear, then a bigger leak.

 

[Run 4 Fun]

I'm not sure if I understand your last sentence. You just said in your posts that you finished your axle job, but it was pressed in a way that the seal is riding on the bevel and now it leaks. Doesn't that just prove that the original retainer position does not work with the new Toyota seal design? You might want to read up more in the Ultimate Axle Seal thread here. It's well known that many people have had their seals leak again by not re-adjusting their retainer. The flipped retainer method works, the only disadvantage is you need to be careful with the install because the chamfered edge is there to aid in the install.

The seal likely will work at first riding on the bevel, but it only takes minor pressure buildup in the axle to cause seepage over time. Not to mention that the beveled edge doesn't have the same smooth machining, it may start chewing the seal. The bevel is only there for the install, it's not meant to be a sealing surface.

If you want to trust what the mechanics say, go ahead. Their definition of not having any problems/returns may only apply to the warranty period of their work (1 year). It takes a while for the minor seepage to leak through to the hubs, cause bearing wear, then a bigger leak.

I don't think he said that it is leaking after being installed on the bevel. He said it was fine. I also had a rear leak on one side. To my knowledge the guy that pressed it on didn't move it over and I haven't had a problem since. Granted it has only been close to a year since done. IMO I don't think there is enough legitimate information to definitively say one way is better.

 

[RS Dude]

I'm not sure if I understand your last sentence. You just said in your posts that you finished your axle job, but it was pressed in a way that the seal is riding on the bevel and now it leaks. Doesn't that just prove that the original retainer position does not work with the new Toyota seal design? You might want to read up more in the Ultimate Axle Seal thread here. It's well known that many people have had their seals leak again by not re-adjusting their retainer. The flipped retainer method works, the only disadvantage is you need to be careful with the install because the chamfered edge is there to aid in the install.

The seal likely will work at first riding on the bevel, but it only takes minor pressure buildup in the axle to cause seepage over time. Not to mention that the beveled edge doesn't have the same smooth machining, it may start chewing the seal. The bevel is only there for the install, it's not meant to be a sealing surface.

If you want to trust what the mechanics say, go ahead. Their definition of not having any problems/returns may only apply to the warranty period of their work (1 year). It takes a while for the minor seepage to leak through to the hubs, cause bearing wear, then a bigger leak.

You and two other people who have had a problem with the seal lip riding on the bevel is a statistically insignificant number to conclude that a new style oil seal is the culprit. My machine shop services several huge Toyota dealers as well as numerous independent shops to do these axle bearing jobs. Hundreds of axle jobs that remain leak free is a much more accurate statistical example than yours. All due respect to you and your positive contributions to this website.

 

[mtbtim]

You and two other people who have had a problem with the seal lip riding on the bevel is a statistically insignificant number to conclude that a new style oil seal is the culprit. My machine shop services several huge Toyota dealers as well as numerous independent shops to do these axle bearing jobs. Hundreds of axle jobs that remain leak free is a much more accurate statistical example than yours.

Dude, do yourself a favor and look at the research [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] has done for us. He shows in a short video that the lip of the new seal design sits a little more inboard towards the differential compared to the original design. If you keep the retainer in the same spot on the axle, based off FSM spec, you DO run the risk of having a leak again. I stupidly let my local Toyota dealership do my rear axle seal job and one of their top mechanics for this job screwed it up. Luckily, again due to [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION], I knew how to check if the axle seal was holding by pulling the ABS sensor and looking inside the axle. After only 500 miles, there was already a little gear oil accumulating on my driver's side where it shouldn't be. The mechanic didn't even know about the grease test. I had them do the grease test right in front of me and it showed the lip of the seal was riding right on the edge of the bevel. Per my request, they flipped the retainers and did the grease test to verify where the lip of the seal was riding. I now have around 10,000 miles on this repair with no problems.

I think most people don't realize their axle seal repair is already leaking because they don't know about the ABS sensor trick and it takes time for the gear oil to finally make it's way into the brakes and start giving you symptoms that something isn't right.

Whatever way you chose to go, make sure you do the grease test before you bolt everything back together.

 

[RS Dude]

Dude, do yourself a favor and look at the research [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] has done for us. He shows in a short video that the lip of the new seal design sits a little more inboard towards the differential compared to the original design. If you keep the retainer in the same spot on the axle, based off FSM spec, you DO run the risk of having a leak again. I stupidly let my local Toyota dealership do my rear axle seal job and one of their top mechanics for this job screwed it up. Luckily, again due to [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION], I knew how to check if the axle seal was holding by pulling the ABS sensor and looking inside the axle. After only 500 miles, there was already a little gear oil accumulating on my driver's side where it shouldn't be. The mechanic didn't even know about the grease test. I had them do the grease test right in front of me and it showed the lip of the seal was riding right on the edge of the bevel. Per my request, they flipped the retainers and did the grease test to verify where the lip of the seal was riding. I now have around 10,000 miles on this repair with no problems.

I think most people don't realize their axle seal repair is already leaking because they don't know about the ABS sensor trick and it takes time for the gear oil to finally make it's way into the brakes and start giving you symptoms that something isn't right.

Whatever way you chose to go, make sure you do the grease test before you bolt everything back together.

If the seal lip rides on the bevel it will leak IMMEDIATELY !!! Not after 366 days when the warranty period expires. Three people with this problem is STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT!

 

[nobb]

You and two other people who have had a problem with the seal lip riding on the bevel is a statistically insignificant number to conclude that a new style oil seal is the culprit. My machine shop services several huge Toyota dealers as well as numerous independent shops to do these axle bearing jobs. Hundreds of axle jobs that remain leak free is a much more accurate statistical example than yours. All due respect to you and your positive contributions to this website.

In none of my posts did I actually say I had a problem with the new seal design + old retainer position because I didn't install it that way. When I DID have a leak on my ORIGINAL seal and had to service it, I read up on all the people that DID have problems shortly after putting in the new seal, did the grease test myself and saw firsthand that the retainer needed adjustment.

Everyone here is just giving you valid suggestions. The reason why I don't let shops touch my vehicles anymore is because many of them are staffed by people who act like they know better, won't accept suggestions, then make excuses when their worksmanship does go bad. If you're just a shop that services the dealership, how do you know that many of those "hundreds" of axles aren't actually dealer returns for the same problem? Your shop is only servicing the axle, not doing the actual install or seeing the problem first hand. Here's a newsflash, dealerships aren't always right. They blindly follow the FSM, and in this case, the FSM is incorrect when the new seal design is used. There is a difference to being a tech blindly following FSM instructions versus taking the time to understand the engineering and design behind how the parts are supposed to function.

 

[mtbtim]

If the seal lip rides on the bevel it will leak IMMEDIATELY !!! Not after 366 days when the warranty period expires. Three people with this problem is STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT!

It won't leak enough for most people to notice until it's too late. Oil will leak out slowly and finally accumulate enough in the space near the bearing to wash out the grease, destroy the bearing and ultimately get through the outside seal and into the brakes. I didn't know I had an axle seal problem until I detected my brakes pulling to the left. When I inspected my brakes, I found the passenger side rear shoes coated in gear oil which made sense why the vehicle was pulling left because the truck was braking stronger on the left side due to the compromised passenger side rear brakes shoes.

If I didn't know about the ABS sensor trick to see if my axle seal was holding, I most likely would have gotten past the year warranty and stuck either paying to fix it again or tackle the job myself.

No need for exclamation points. Like me and others commenting on your post, we're just trying to help you out with our own research and personal experience with this issue. There's nobody here saying you have to take our advice.

 

[RS Dude]

In none of my posts did I actually say I had a problem with the new seal design + old retainer position because I didn't install it that way. When I DID have a leak on my ORIGINAL seal and had to service it, I read up on all the people that DID have problems shortly after putting in the new seal, did the grease test myself and saw firsthand that the retainer needed adjustment.

Everyone here is just giving you valid suggestions. The reason why I don't let shops touch my vehicles anymore is because many of them are staffed by people who act like they know better, won't accept suggestions, then make excuses when their worksmanship does go bad. If you're just a shop that services the dealership, how do you know that many of those "hundreds" of axles aren't actually dealer returns for the same problem? Your shop is only servicing the axle, not doing the actual install or seeing the problem first hand. Here's a newsflash, dealerships aren't always right. They blindly follow the FSM, and in this case, the FSM is incorrect when the new seal design is used. There is a difference to being a tech blindly following FSM instructions versus taking the time to understand the engineering and design behind how the parts are supposed to function.

Toyota dealerships maintain the highest level of service possible. Also, they have a massive database of all the repair work done at all dealerships. If a continuing problem is discovered (like your seal on bevel) they will correct it ASAP. If someone pays $1000 to $1500 to do this axle job and it leaks soon after or even after the warrant period, they are going to raise HELL at the dealership. If the dealership has to make good on a repair within the warranty period, then they have to eat that cost. If they are re-doing $1000 to $1500 jobs without being paid, heads are going to roll and a solution the problem will be found.

 

[thegipper]

Has anyone ever just gone to a junkyard and used a donor axle/hub assembly (one that wasn't leaking) so all they had to do is install a new seal in the housing?

My seals aren't leaking (that I know of but maybe I should check since I'm at 206k) but if they were, wouldn't this be a much cheaper solution?

Granted you would be installing used equipment so who knows how good the bearings are but assuming it was from a donor with no signs of previous leakage, it could be repaired for much cheaper? Or is this not possible?

This would just be for us that are penny pushers....

 

[Drcoffee]

Toyota dealerships maintain the highest level of service possible. Also, they have a massive database of all the repair work done at all dealerships. If a continuing problem is discovered (like your seal on bevel) they will correct it ASAP. If someone pays $1000 to $1500 to do this axle job and it leaks soon after or even after the warrant period, they are going to raise HELL at the dealership. If the dealership has to make good on a repair within the warranty period, then they have to eat that cost. If they are re-doing $1000 to $1500 jobs without being paid, heads are going to roll and a solution the problem will be found.
:cheer2:

Okie dokie
ound:ound:ound:ound: So why are we having this conversation 17 frickin years later.

You are so right. You studied it and you know best.
:ybrick::ybrick::ybrick:

 

[RS Dude]

Okie dokie
ound:ound:ound:ound: So why are we having this conversation 17 frickin years later.

You are so right. You studied it and you know best.
:ybrick::ybrick::ybrick:

No one else has experienced your problem. Therefore, you alone are the problem. Perhaps you installed defective or counterfeit parts. Perhaps you installed the parts incorrectly. Everytime someone posts anything about rear axle seal leaking, you and your two other disciples scare everybody into flipping their seal ring around so the lip doesn't ride on the bevel. Stop producing this hysteria and submit proof of all the victims of this problem. :ybrick: