Rear Brake Issue-5th Gen Swap

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

So long story but, my runner had a bunch of braking issues since the day I bought it.
At first it was just the driver side front caliper being frozen and not applying any braking force. I would hit the brakes and the runner will pull hard to the right side. Gradually this problem got more pronounced. A few weeks ago I started to notice brake pad smell from the rear.
I drove for a bit on it like this because my job is only about 4-6 mins from my house and I didnt have the money for new brakes at the time.
Last week it ended up getting bad...on the way to work, my runner started making a very pronounced clicking from the driver side rear. I was about 30 secs from work when this happened so I just continued to drive. Once I pulled into the parking lot I noticed that the driver rear caliper was smoking.
At this point I knew it was time to order all new brakes and I decided to bite the bullet.
I ended up ordering all 5th gen components to do the swap. I limped it home that night and started disassembly. I had it all striped by about 9:30. Come to find out, somehow my driver side rear caliper piston rubber skirt thing had gotten torn severely and let sand and debris get all inside of it. I figured that this is the reason it was locked up and smoking :shrug:
My parts came in for the front on Friday afternoon and I went at putting them on immediately. Didn't have any issues other than trimming the dust shields a bit. I didn't have rear stuff yet so I was done for the time being. Saturday morning I busy but by the time the parts got there around noon I was ready to get them on. I proceeded to put everything on being as methodical as I could be.
On Sunday I bled all the air out of the brakes. At this point I was getting excited to have it back on the ground. I re-installed the wheels and took it off jack stands.
Immediately after taking it down and backing out of the driveway I could feel that something wasn't right in the driver side rear ONCE AGAIN!!! I was utterly frustrated and pretty disheartened as well. All my effort was seemingly worthless. If I had to describe the effects I would say that it felt like the wheel was not tightened enough and that it was hopping almost. I also noticed a VERY pronounced clicking. It really felt like I had broken an axle shaft or something.
I put it back up on jack stands and put it in gear just to see if I could see what exactly was going on. I could definitely tell that the brakes were warm on that corner and I also heard very pronounced clicking too. Kind of sounded like a metal tab hitting a certain spot on something as it spun by. Upon further disassembly I noticed that the noise seemed to stop when I took off the rotor and caliper. At this point it was just spinning freely with no weight or brakes on that side of the axle.
I reinstalled the brakes to see if I could visually see the problem. I put it in gear after I was done and this time I noticed that the caliper and pads seemed to be pulsating?? Seems weird I know but there was definitely a rhythmic movement going on with them and I'm not sure what could be causing it other than maybe the rotor contacting something on the inside with the e-brake assembly?? At this point I was pretty stumped and late for dinner with my gf so I just left it alone for the time being. I will go back this afternoon and continue, but I wanted to know what you guys think about where to start troubleshooting? I am pretty much drawing a blank and I am not sure what to look for. Also...are the caliper slide pins identical on top and bottom? I seem to remember one of them being round all the way and the other having a flat spot cut into it the entire way down the shaft. Could this be part of the issue? Maybe I was sent the wrong hardware or maybe I installed the bolts incorrectly?
Any and all help is greatly appreciated, I just want my runner back and driving ASAP

Also when I get home I will try and take a video to show the issue I am having, maybe that will help out with the diagnosis?

 

[BackOff]

The parking brake is a drum brake on the inside of the rotor...sounds like it blew up. Can you back off the little star-wheel adjuster?... push in on the bottom.

Are a few threads here about what a pain it is.

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

The parking brake is a drum brake on the inside of the rotor...sounds like it blew up. Can you back off the little star-wheel adjuster?... push in on the bottom.

Are a few threads here about what a pain it is.

Yeah I took off the rotor thinking the same thing and it seemed like everything was in order. I actually had to replace the retaining springs and pins on the other side recently, but I could clearly see the issue on that side and I cant on this side. So I am pretty familiar with the system and I know exactly what you mean when you say its a pain haha. Took me about an hour the first time just to do the springs

 

[BackOff]

Right pics/vid might help.

I was just guessing...maybe motivate someone that knows something. :gun6:

Bad brakes are really annoying. Not to mention dangerous.
I had not backed off my parking brake enough and it really made the wheels warm. Probably add to future fail of seals or some such.

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

Right pics/vid might help.

I was just guessing...maybe motivate someone that knows something. :gun6:

Bad brakes are really annoying. Not to mention dangerous.
I had not backed off my parking brake enough and it really made the wheels warm. Probably add to future fail of seals or some such.

Yeah i'm going to try and get vids and pics tonight...no promises though
Its definitely not that the shoes are too tight inside the drum, because the rotor is pretty freely moving and doesn't get hung up at all. Plus the adjuster at the bottom is threaded all the way in to be as short as possible, only because I wanted to get rid of that possibility. A part of me wonders if I broke the axle shaft? Or maybe a bad bearing?? I feel like those are worst case scenario and I am probably overreacting right?? Also thanks for any/all input you have given so far, I really appreciate it. Even if they are guesses I still appreciate it!

 

[BackOff]

Yeah i'm going to try and get vids and pics tonight...no promises though
Its definitely not that the shoes are too tight inside the drum, because the rotor is pretty freely moving and doesn't get hung up at all. Plus the adjuster at the bottom is threaded all the way in to be as short as possible, only because I wanted to get rid of that possibility. A part of me wonders if I broke the axle shaft? Or maybe a bad bearing?? I feel like those are worst case scenario and I am probably overreacting right?? Also thanks for any/all input you have given so far, I really appreciate it. Even if they are guesses I still appreciate it!

Worst case...seemed like one guy here had a bent axle tube.

 

[cbelisle]

i know you said you redid the e brake assembly. I ended up taking mine apart and ended up bending a pin which cause a slight rubbing sound, and very loud clicking sound as the wheel rotated. it was because the pin was bent and hitting the rotor. beyond that, i don't have any answers for the other issues you're talking about.

 

[AuSeeker]

You need to better pinpoint where the "clicking" is coming from, this seems to be the issue and sound like it's something in the brakes/rotor/caliper since you say the clicking is gone with the rotor and caliper off, does that axle turn freely in neutral, I doubt very seriously that the axle is broken.

When you removed the caliper and rotor and noticed the clicking was gone did it still click with just the rotor on and the claiper removed?

You need to do this all in little steps to determine when the clicking stops, remove only one item at a time until it stops, the last item you removed is the most likely the culprit, also make sure that you install at least one lugnut after the wheel is removed (2 would be better) so the rotor remains fully seated against the axle flange, if the rotor isn't fullly seated and the clicking stops you still won't know for sure if it's the rotor causing the clicking or not.

 

[inscarguy]

I just went through this, except it just happened on its own. The retaining pins for the ebrake shoes got rusty and failed. So I got a new set and they made this clicking noise, the retainers on top of the pin were just contacting the metal shim on the axle shaft hub.. They were a/m replacements and come to find out that they were a tiny hair longer than the oem ones. They are a PITA to replace. When i got some time I got another set from a different company and they were the same as the other a/m set.

Instead of doing it for a 3rd time I got a flat washer, notched it so it could slide in between the head of the pin and the backing plate. It worked perfectly by pulling the spring tighter and away from the axle hub.

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

i know you said you redid the e brake assembly. I ended up taking mine apart and ended up bending a pin which cause a slight rubbing sound, and very loud clicking sound as the wheel rotated. it was because the pin was bent and hitting the rotor. beyond that, i don't have any answers for the other issues you're talking about.

Yeah the exact same thing happened on the other side and had to redo the pins, but I can't see any contacting point on this side, and it's all still stock hardware on this side. So thats whats making me scratch my head. Also when the other side was contacting pieces it wasn't acting at allllll like this side is. This side legitimately feels like its hopping. The other side was only making noise at about 5-15 mph and was not accompanied by any feelings like this one is

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

You need to better pinpoint where the "clicking" is coming from, this seems to be the issue and sound like it's something in the brakes/rotor/caliper since you say the clicking is gone with the rotor and caliper off, does that axle turn freely in neutral, I doubt very seriously that the axle is broken.

When you removed the caliper and rotor and noticed the clicking was gone did it still click with just the rotor on and the caliper removed?

You need to do this all in little steps to determine when the clicking stops, remove only one item at a time until it stops, the last item you removed is the most likely the culprit, also make sure that you install at least one lugnut after the wheel is removed (2 would be better) so the rotor remains fully seated against the axle flange, if the rotor isn't fullly seated and the clicking stops you still won't know for sure if it's the rotor causing the clicking or not.

Maybe the axle isn't broken, but could the wheel bearing be causing this?? Maybe during the week I was driving with sticking/overworking caliper it created enough heat to distort and damage the bearing? I know sometimes bad wheel bearing will manifest in different ways, but I was under the impression that they typically roaring and whirred and not clicked like this. But maybe that would explain the feeling that I was having? I will definitely try and do some more research into this issue, but the rain is holding me off right now since its not in the garage. I may put all the wheels back on, and have someone else drive while I walk beside it to see if the wheel has any travel/play in it while driving. I really don't think the pins are causing the issue, because i've seen that problem before and it was the first thing I looked for this time. Also last time that happened it didn't sound or feel like this at all.

 

[Mike07SE]

Parking brake.

Even more so if you're using a 5th gen rotor on the rear of a 4th.

Is it like this?

YouTube

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

Parking brake.

Even more so if you're using a 5th gen rotor on the rear of a 4th.

Is it like this?

YouTube

DUDE. That is exactly it!! I swear I thought it was just my imagination that the wheel seemed hard to turn, but from your video I can tell that it wasn't just my imagination. Also yours seemed to make more noise in reverse just like mine did....what ended up being the fix?? And yeah I thought the 5th gen rotors were the way to go but I still have my 4th gen ones and they were not in too bad of shape, should I just use those??

 

[Mike07SE]

DUDE. That is exactly it!! I swear I thought it was just my imagination that the wheel seemed hard to turn, but from your video I can tell that it wasn't just my imagination. Also yours seemed to make more noise in reverse just like mine did....what ended up being the fix?? And yeah I thought the 5th gen rotors were the way to go but I still have my 4th gen ones and they were not in too bad of shape, should I just use those??

Fix???

I just gutted the PB assembly to eliminate possibilities. At the time in that video I was running 5th gen rotors and learned that the hub diameter is not quite the same as the 4th (tapered or something like that), so in theory the rotor is not spinning true on the hub. This would also explain why - like you - when I would take the wheel off the issue would go away.

I've since gone back to 4th gen rotors in the rear. In the meantime I haven't since put it back together - more out of frustration of the hassle of it. I'll get to it soon as the weather warms up.

I'm investigating a possible alternative of adapting a combination brake caliper to use in the rear. Wilwood makes one where the brake cable pulls a lever on the back of the piston to engage e-brake.

 

[inscarguy]

Parking brake.

Even more so if you're using a 5th gen rotor on the rear of a 4th.

Is it like this?

YouTube

My 5th gen upgrade works fine.

 

[That_Titanium_4RNR]

Fix???

I just gutted the PB assembly to eliminate possibilities. At the time in that video I was running 5th gen rotors and learned that the hub diameter is not quite the same as the 4th (tapered or something like that), so in theory the rotor is not spinning true on the hub. This would also explain why - like you - when I would take the wheel off the issue would go away.

I've since gone back to 4th gen rotors in the rear. In the meantime I haven't since put it back together - more out of frustration of the hassle of it. I'll get to it soon as the weather warms up.

I'm investigating a possible alternative of adapting a combination brake caliper to use in the rear. Wilwood makes one where the brake cable pulls a lever on the back of the piston to engage e-brake.

So answer me this....should I be able to run 4th gen rotors on the rear, and 5th gen calipers?

I'm definitely not going to do any additional brake modification though. I have already spent a fortune on this stuff and I was honestly just looking for a replacement and not necessarily an upgrade. I have seen these style calipers before but I'm honestly not that interested.

I definitely did notice that it seemed like the rotor (and whole brake assembly) was going up and down (VERY SLIGHTLY) and not completely centered on the studs when I took the wheel off. The clicking was going on during this time too.

 

[Mike07SE]

My 5th gen upgrade works fine.

Most seem OK. Not everyone is lucky.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Mike07SE]

So answer me this....should I be able to run 4th gen rotors on the rear, and 5th gen calipers?

Calipers should be fine. It's the center bore of the rotor that's the issue.

I'm definitely not going to do any additional brake modification though. I have already spent a fortune on this stuff and I was honestly just looking for a replacement and not necessarily an upgrade. I have seen these style calipers before but I'm honestly not that interested.

I understand. I'm just investigating other possibilities.

I definitely did notice that it seemed like the rotor (and whole brake assembly) was going up and down (VERY SLIGHTLY) and not completely centered on the studs when I took the wheel off. The clicking was going on during this time too.

All the same for me. It wasn't until the rotor was off that all noise was gone. It was with the wheel on that this was the result. Long story short this was costly for me as well as I thought I had a busted diff and had it rebuilt.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[99Runnr]

I am using 4th gen rear rotors with 5th gen rear calipers. 110% bolt up, no trimming, no modification necessary.

 

[robaroni]

When I upgraded to 5th Gen set up I stuck with 4th gen rotors in the back. According to the write up I followed the 5th gen rotors would not fit in the back.