Rear drums - what needs to be done here?

[ShooterMcGavin]

I've owned my 4Runner for 2.5 years and the e-brake has never worked. I suspect that the rear brakes might not be working at all via the brake pedal, but I haven't tested. Please take a look at my photos and give me some advice?

1. There is a good amount of grime and grease-looking buildup. Do the pictures show that I am having issues/leakage from the axle seals? Do I need to address replacing the axle seals before I fix the brakes?

2. If I am not having issues caused by failing axle seals, should I still replace the axle seals before doing the brake work anyways? I am on a tight budget right now.

3. Can I buy a rear brake rebuild kit from O'Reilly's or should I get something specifically OEM?

*Edit: Should I take some more clear pictures to help diagnose the problems here?

Pics...

 

[mtbtim]

Definitely looks like your axle seals are leaking. If you have ABS, pull the sensors, turn the hub and see if the ABS gear is picking up gear oil like a water wheel. If it is, your axles seals are toast because there shouldn't be any gear oil in that location.
[MENTION=44220]BigFishAllDay[/MENTION], [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] and others on different forums have done good write-ups on the subject. You can easily pull the axles yourself and replace the seals but the hard part is getting all the hardware off the axles and new parts put back on. It's advisable to replace your bearings for sure but some reuse the seal retainers and ABS gears. You could either bring your axles to a good machine shop that knows what they are doing or buy yourself an affordable press like Harbor Freight sells and go for it yourself. After hearing how people had problems with machine shops screwing up their axles or not putting the parts on right, and the fact I didn't own a press, I decided to let the dealership do it which was a big mistake. I wish I would have done more research before letting the dealership do it for me, because if I knew I could get a harbor freight press for around $200, I would have done it myself. The dealership of course screwed it up the first time and I had to bring it back. I got bent over for $1500 for this job which included replacing the rear brakes. They fixed their screw-up but I'm still kicking myself for not doing this repair myself.

Definitely address the leaking axle seals first and then replace the brakes.

 

[TheDurk]

I agree with above. I also notice the adjuster is screwed in almost all the way, leading me to wonder if the adjustment system is working at all. This is probably the fault of the e-brake issue. You need to check that the cable is operational and that the bellcranks (pivot on back of drum that e-brake cable connects to) work properly and are adjusted.

I'd say those brakes did nothing even before the axle leak. The shoes probably never touch the drum.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Thanks for all the info Tim. I will take your advice, but that means I will probably need to wait a little while before jumping into this whole job. I'll use the time to research how I want to go about doing it.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I agree with above. I also notice the adjuster is screwed in almost all the way, leading me to wonder if the adjustment system is working at all. This is probably the fault of the e-brake issue. You need to check that the cable is operational and that the bellcranks (pivot on back of drum that e-brake cable connects to) work properly and are adjusted.

I'd say those brakes did nothing even before the axle leak. The shoes probably never touch the drum.

Thanks Durk. I'm not a fan of working on drum brakes. I'm also not very familiar with all the components of drums.

 

[fourfive]

How snug do your drums fit around your brake shoes?

It looks like you could adjust the star/adjuster wheel to expand the diameter of the brake shoes to have a more snug fit with the drum. I've noticed that a snugger fit of the drum on the brake shoes helps a lot with the parking brake engagement, brake pedal feel, & braking response.

Before spending $, you could...
-Use 1 can of brake cleaner on each side to clean everything up and let it dry.

-Adjust both driver & passenger side brakes by rotating the star wheel (I prefer to do it with the drum off b/c it's easier to get to)

-Put the drum back on to make sure you have a good fit.

-With moderate force, spin the drum/wheel assembly to see if you get a full 360 rotation. If you get more then 360 of rotation then increase the diameter of the shoes, if you get less, decrease the diameter. This should get you in the ballpark.

-Then slowly pull up on your parking brake to full engagement. If the brakes are properly adjusted, you should get around 8 clicks before full engagement.

-Drive it around and see if the parking brake functions & if there is any improvements in your braking response. Then remove the drum to see if there is any signs of fluid on the brakes. This will at least rule out if adjusting your brakes is part of your brake issue & won't cost anything.


It does look like your axle seals are leaking fluid because it shouldn't look wet like that when you pull off the drum. If it is leaking, then definitely replace the seals & probably the bearings since you'll have everything apart before replacing the brakes

As far as brake parts, I tend to go OEM on just about everything. Not saying OEM is the best, I just like having OEM and minimizing fitment issues.

 

[Roc Doc]

How snug do your drums fit around your brake shoes?

It looks like you could adjust the star/adjuster wheel to expand the diameter of the brake shoes to have a more snug fit with the drum. I've noticed that a snugger fit of the drum on the brake shoes helps a lot with the parking brake engagement, brake pedal feel, & braking response.

Before spending $, you could...
-Use 1 can of brake cleaner on each side to clean everything up and let it dry.

-Adjust both driver & passenger side brakes by rotating the star wheel (I prefer to do it with the drum off b/c it's easier to get to)

-Put the drum back on to make sure you have a good fit.

-With moderate force, spin the drum/wheel assembly to see if you get a full 360 rotation. If you get more then 360 of rotation then increase the diameter of the shoes, if you get less, decrease the diameter. This should get you in the ballpark.

-Then slowly pull up on your parking brake to full engagement. If the brakes are properly adjusted, you should get around 8 clicks before full engagement.

-Drive it around and see if the parking brake functions & if there is any improvements in your braking response. Then remove the drum to see if there is any signs of fluid on the brakes. This will at least rule out if adjusting your brakes is part of your brake issue & won't cost anything.


It does look like your axle seals are leaking fluid because it shouldn't look wet like that when you pull off the drum. If it is leaking, then definitely replace the seals & probably the bearings since you'll have everything apart before replacing the brakes

As far as brake parts, I tend to go OEM on just about everything. Not saying OEM is the best, I just like having OEM and minimizing fitment issues.

Yup.

And inspect the brake hoses for swelling or hardening. Might also be a good time to flush the fluid.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

How snug do your drums fit around your brake shoes?

It looks like you could adjust the star/adjuster wheel to expand the diameter of the brake shoes to have a more snug fit with the drum. I've noticed that a snugger fit of the drum on the brake shoes helps a lot with the parking brake engagement, brake pedal feel, & braking response.

Before spending $, you could...
-Use 1 can of brake cleaner on each side to clean everything up and let it dry.

-Adjust both driver & passenger side brakes by rotating the star wheel (I prefer to do it with the drum off b/c it's easier to get to)

-Put the drum back on to make sure you have a good fit.

-With moderate force, spin the drum/wheel assembly to see if you get a full 360 rotation. If you get more then 360 of rotation then increase the diameter of the shoes, if you get less, decrease the diameter. This should get you in the ballpark.

-Then slowly pull up on your parking brake to full engagement. If the brakes are properly adjusted, you should get around 8 clicks before full engagement.

-Drive it around and see if the parking brake functions & if there is any improvements in your braking response. Then remove the drum to see if there is any signs of fluid on the brakes. This will at least rule out if adjusting your brakes is part of your brake issue & won't cost anything.


It does look like your axle seals are leaking fluid because it shouldn't look wet like that when you pull off the drum. If it is leaking, then definitely replace the seals & probably the bearings since you'll have everything apart before replacing the brakes

As far as brake parts, I tend to go OEM on just about everything. Not saying OEM is the best, I just like having OEM and minimizing fitment issues.

Thanks for the details! I will read through it a few times. I think my brake shoes contact the drum enough that I can't spin the drum a full revolution - with the wheel removed (no inertia). With the wheel on, I think I can spin the drum probably more than a full rotation. I'll need to lift it again to check.

How much would I be looking at spending to do this whole job? Assume that I get OEM parts for bearings, seals, and ABS rings, and I get aftermarket brake shoes, brake parts, and hopefully can resurface the drums?

 

[22argh]

I just replaced my frozen bell cranks because my e-brake didn't work, found out then that my e-brake cable was also frozen, a little penetration oil and works perfectly now

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I just replaced my frozen bell cranks because my e-brake didn't work, found out then that my e-brake cable was also frozen, a little penetration oil and works perfectly now

Thanks. That'll probably help me.

 

[22argh]

no problem good luck!

 

[fourfive]

Thanks for the details! I will read through it a few times. I think my brake shoes contact the drum enough that I can't spin the drum a full revolution - with the wheel removed (no inertia). With the wheel on, I think I can spin the drum probably more than a full rotation. I'll need to lift it again to check.

If you're not quite sure about how snug the drum to brake shoe fit is, you can keep adjusting the star wheel until the brake shoes are wide enough to barely let you get the drum fully back on.

At that point, remove the drum and decrease the diameter of the drums by adjusting the star wheel 8-10 clicks at a time until you can get the drum back on without as much resistance but still getting a good fit. Then spin the wheel with the tire off to see if you get a full revolution. Once you get the rear brakes adjusted to get a full revolution, do a final check of the parking brake by lifting it up slowly and count the number of clicks the parking brake makes before it is fully engaged, 8 total clicks is about where you want to be.

How much would I be looking at spending to do this whole job? Assume that I get OEM parts for bearings, seals, and ABS rings, and I get aftermarket brake shoes, brake parts, and hopefully can resurface the drums?

If I remember correctly, the OEM bearings, seals, ABS ring, etc came out to around $500-550 and the brake shoe kit was around $80 from a local dealer. Sounds bad BUT, call a couple toyota dealers and get a price quote for that job and you'll feel better about the price for the parts if you decided to go OEM.

I was actually considering buying a 20 ton harbor freight press or getting one off craigslist to remove the old parts when doing this on my friends 4runner but after calling around to various machine/service shops, I found Pep boys that offered to remove the old parts and install the new parts for $20 per axle.

The main reason I decided to have a shop press off the old parts was that I didnt have a way of making a "special service tool" to use with the press to remove the old parts.

 

[gamefreakgc]

A few tips:

You don't need to replace the ABS rings unless they are damaged. I took mine to a local machine shop (NAPA) and they reused the old ones just fine. I returned them. He did have to use some of the retaining rings, if you know what I am talking about. What you do want to measure is how far the ABS ring is pressed down the axle. Some places press it flush against the brake assembly and then it doesn't match up right with the ABS sensor and you get error codes. Also, if you know you have a bad leak then you will need new bearings (about $60 each) otherwise you'll find yourself doing this again in a year.

I used aftermarket drum springs and aftermarket pads, they work just fine. All together with parts and labor I paid $250 for replacing one seal along with bearings and both sides with new pads & drum springs and the kit. My local Toyota dealership won't even fix a rear axle seal on a Toyota without changing the bearings.

 

[mtbtim]

If you're not quite sure about how snug the drum to brake shoe fit is, you can keep adjusting the star wheel until the brake shoes are wide enough to barely let you get the drum fully back on.

At that point, remove the drum and decrease the diameter of the drums by adjusting the star wheel 8-10 clicks at a time until you can get the drum back on without as much resistance but still getting a good fit. Then spin the wheel with the tire off to see if you get a full revolution. Once you get the rear brakes adjusted to get a full revolution, do a final check of the parking brake by lifting it up slowly and count the number of clicks the parking brake makes before it is fully engaged, 8 total clicks is about where you want to be.



If I remember correctly, the OEM bearings, seals, ABS ring, etc came out to around $500-550 and the brake shoe kit was around $80 from a local dealer. Sounds bad BUT, call a couple toyota dealers and get a price quote for that job and you'll feel better about the price for the parts if you decided to go OEM.

I was actually considering buying a 20 ton harbor freight press or getting one off craigslist to remove the old parts when doing this on my friends 4runner but after calling around to various machine/service shops, I found Pep boys that offered to remove the old parts and install the new parts for $20 per axle.

The main reason I decided to have a shop press off the old parts was that I didnt have a way of making a "special service tool" to use with the press to remove the old parts.

Wow, Pep Boys did the axle work for $20/side. That's a freaking deal! I wonder if my local Pep Boys does that kind of service.

 

[fourfive]

What you do want to measure is how far the ABS ring is pressed down the axle. Some places press it flush against the brake assembly and then it doesn't match up right with the ABS sensor and you get error codes.

Good tip and this is something that's not mentioned enough.

 

[fourfive]

Wow, Pep Boys did the axle work for $20/side. That's a freaking deal! I wonder if my local Pep Boys does that kind of service.

A couple other pep boys and machine shops i called quoted anywhere from $40-80 per side. I think it just depends on who you talk to and how busy they are when you call them.

 

[Roc Doc]

Wow, Pep Boys did the axle work for $20/side. That's a freaking deal! I wonder if my local Pep Boys does that kind of service.

You don't need to replace the ABS rings unless they are damaged. I took mine to a local machine shop (NAPA) and they reused the old ones just fine. I returned them. He did have to use some of the retaining rings, if you know what I am talking about. What you do want to measure is how far the ABS ring is pressed down the axle. Some places press it flush against the brake assembly and then it doesn't match up right with the ABS sensor and you get error codes. .

I would mark the location of the ABS ring and make sure the Pep Boyz understand that this is critical, and also inspect it after they hand it back to you. I don't trust the quality of work from that place...I haven't been to them all of course, but there does seem to be a pattern of substandard work.

 

[Beaumont67]

I purchased my 2000 4Runner SR5, from a garage owner friend with used car lot.
- he assigned his top mechanic, and replaced most brake components
- the rear drums, didn't need turned / I will NEVER have my Rotors/Drums turned...always replace with new instead.
This all stemmed from doing an in-house government safety check and upon inspection, the rear axles were leaking gear oil onto the brake shoes.
- luckily my shop owner friend, used quality parts (no white box, China crap)
- as I bought the SUV certified / all repairs, were performed free of charge
^^ All said & done, with decent parts / typically a $1,500 job.

PS - when I need a disk brake kits, I always get:
- ELITE xDS Series http://maxbrakes.com/c-1002950-brake-kits-elite-xds-series-kits.html
- Cross-Drilled and Slotted Disc Brake Rotors
- Manufactured from G-3500 Grade Grey Iron
- Meets or Exceeds OEM Standards
- ELITE Anti-Rust Coating

Both rear axles pulled / along with oil seals / used ABS Rings / used wheel bearings...removed.

Koyo (Japanese Bearings) / new Axle Seals / new Toyota ABS Rings (original Rings, damaged upon removal)
/ new Brake hardware kit / and premium-Ceramic Brake Shoes.

 

[LittleCaesar]

I purchased my 2000 4Runner SR5, from a garage owner with used car lot & good friend.
- he assigned his top mechanic, and replaced most brake components, except for reusing the rear drums
This all stemmed from doing a government safety check and upon inspection, the rear axles were leaking gear oil onto the brake shoes.
- luckily my shop owner friend, used quality parts (no white box, China crap)
- as I bought the SUV certified / all repairs, were performed free of charge

Both axles pulled / along with oil seals / ABS Ring / wheel bearings...removed.

Koyo (Japanese Bearings) / new Axle Seals / OEM ABS Ring (original Rings, damaged upon removal).

You MAY hate yourself for not using OEM inner seals in about 20,000 miles or less....:redbrick:

 

[Beaumont67]

You MAY hate yourself for not using OEM inner seals in about 20,000 miles or less....:redbrick:

:biggrin1: ^^ I'm surprised you didn't mention Moog lower ball joints...LOL.

BTW - All oil seals were replaced / and on both axles....never do half the job.
Name brand seals, should last just fine / many seal failures are from operator error, during press fit installation - OEM or not. My mechanic is a retired Air Force mechanic, with 25 years service / I know the job was done exactly right.

I bought my Gen3 T4R in January, fully certified & E-tested / my dealer friend, treated me more than fair (aka Free repairs for necessary Inspections), prior to vehicle getting ownership changed over & 4x4 plated.

PS - and I just bought NGK Iridium plugs, for my v6-3.4L / not the DENSO (OEM).
- probably all made in the same factory anyway

I had 3 decades of my Eng. career, at TIMKEN Bearings / Koyo is still a very solid replacement to Toyota brand/spec.
- in fact, we had 2 Toyota product lines (percision grind), in our Canadian Manufacturing facility
- these Timken Unipack Tundra bearings, when into an OEM carboard box / marked Toyota, with a huge final markup
OEM - sometimes essential, often times NOT !!
- often there is a good choice in quality competetor brands, with much better price points &/or delivery