Removing all the ATF from an '04 V8

[Iowa4Runner]

Has anyone figured out how to completely drain all the ATF from the 2004 V8s? The local service manager said something about using the oil cooler hoses to do the ATF flush. Would sucking the oil hoses dry work to drain the thing completely?

One other question... Who fills the transmission with ATF on a brand new 4Runner, the factory or the dealer?

 

[bulldog-yota]

Factory fills the transmission.

Also you should never run your tranny dry. WHen they do a flush they continiously suck in new fluid as the drain the old stuff, that is why it takes almost twice as much fuild to flush the transmission as what it can hold. WIth the 04 I'm very sceptical to do a flush, as you can't validate you fluid levels afterwards.

 

[Kanab]

Has anyone figured out how to completely drain all the ATF from the 2004 V8s? The local service manager said something about using the oil cooler hoses to do the ATF flush. Would sucking the oil hoses dry work to drain the thing completely?

One other question... Who fills the transmission with ATF on a brand new 4Runner, the factory or the dealer?

Iowa4runner, don't do a flush on a 2004 V8 4runner with the 5 speed transmission. It uses a special transmission fluid that cost a bundle it's called "WS" I figure just for the "fluid only" to do a flush it would cost you close to $350-400. The only time you need to service your transmission per Toyota is at 60K miles if you use your truck to tow. If you don't tow then I would not touch it. If it is serviced make sure the dealer uses Toyota WS ATF (that is the only compatable ATF) anything else and your transmission will fail. When they service it they change the filter and a couple of quarts of fluid, not a big deal since the transmission holds 10-11 quarts. Since it is sealed if the filter is clogged up you have big problems and the transmission will fail soon anyway. I also think it is interesting that the recommended service interval in 60K miles when you tow. If they service your transmission at 60K miles and you have a problem your out of warranty. So if you trust your dealer to do the job right and you want to have your transmission serviced I would do it at 50K miles while you are still under warranty. Good luck.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Re: Re: Removing all the ATF from an '04 V8

Iowa4runner, don't do a flush on a 2004 V8 4runner with the 5 speed transmission. It uses a special transmission fluid that cost a bundle it's called "WS" I figure just for the "fluid only" to do a flush it would cost you close to $350-400. The only time you need to service your transmission per Toyota is at 60K miles if you use your truck to tow. If you don't tow then I would not touch it. If it is serviced make sure the dealer uses Toyota WS ATF (that is the only compatable ATF) anything else and your transmission will fail. When they service it they change the filter and a couple of quarts of fluid, not a big deal since the transmission holds 10-11 quarts. Since it is sealed if the filter is clogged up you have big problems and the transmission will fail soon anyway. I also think it is interesting that the recommended service interval in 60K miles when you tow. If they service your transmission at 60K miles and you have a problem your out of warranty. So if you trust your dealer to do the job right and you want to have your transmission serviced I would do it at 50K miles while you are still under warranty. Good luck.

Where are you getting 10-11 quarts? A full teardown only requires ~6 quarts.

How did you come up with $350-$400 for fluid? The WS type is about $10 per quart.

My local service department is a joke. I'll do whatever it takes to keep my 4Runner out of their inept hands.

 

[Kanab]

Re: Re: Re: Removing all the ATF from an '04 V8

Where are you getting 10-11 quarts? A full teardown only requires ~6 quarts.

How did you come up with $350-$400 for fluid? The WS type is about $10 per quart.

My local service department is a joke. I'll do whatever it takes to keep my 4Runner out of their inept hands.

It is more like 16-18 quarts for a flush. You first have to flush out the machine with the fluid you are going to use in the transmission (don't want to mix ATF fluid). Plus that 5 speed transmission with torque converter will hold 10-11 quarts. The fluid cost between $15-20 per quart depending on the dealer. You hook the machine up to the oil cooler lines to transfer/flush the fluid through the machine. Most places will charge you $75 to use the machine if you provide your own fluid. Whatever you do don't let anyone put any kind of cleaner through your transmission, only ATF should ever go into a transmission. That is how I came up with the $350-400. Why don't you have it done and let us all know what it costs you and how it works out. :

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Removing all the ATF from an '04 V8

Plus that 5 speed transmission with torque converter will hold 10-11 quarts.

How did you arrive at that number?

The fluid cost between $15-20 per quart depending on the dealer.

In the USA it's $10 per quart. That's what I paid, that's what I've heard others pay.

 

[greasefingers]

I do not like the idea of a different type of AFT fluid in a flush-machine. They simply can not get it all out prior to using a new type of fluid. At least that’s my 2 cents. I plan on replacing the 3 quarts of tranny fluid that drain out, each year regardless on mileage. That way it’s constantly being replaced and replaced with the same exact fluid. Luckly with my model T4R, I can fill the tranny thru the dipstick.

 

[Kanab]

The Toyota WS ATF is only sold in 1 gallon containers and I got a price quote today of $45 including tax for the 1 gallon size (guess I was mistaken about the $15 per quart, they don't even sell it in quarts) but it is very expensive and I would not personally have my 2004 4runners transmission flushed. I've had my Toyota 4speed transmission flushed on my Landcruiser a couple of times with the torque converter it holds 11-12 quarts of fluid (the new 5 speed holds about the same amount of fluid as the 4 speed). When you use a flush machine they always use extra fluid to make sure they get all of the old fluid out (if you are changing types of fluid) so you will need to buy 5 gallons of WS ATF since you will need to flush the machine with WS ATF and then you will want to run 16-18 quarts through your transmission to come up with a complete flush. Sounds like you don't believe me so ask a shop that does the work. If they don't flush the machine and you only run say two gallons of new WS ATF through your transmission please keep us posted on how it works out :headslap:

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Sounds like you don't believe me so ask a shop that does the work. If they don't flush the machine and you only run say two gallons of new WS ATF through your transmission please keep us posted on how it works out.

Why should I have believed you? You were wrong about the price and when asked how you came up with the 10-11 quarts your response was, "that 5 speed transmission with torque converter will hold 10-11 quarts." It doesn't sound like there's much of a credible source behind that answer.

Simply circulating fluid through a transmission doesn't tell you how much it holds. Did someone look it up in a manual or refill one that had been torn down? Do you really know how much it holds or did you just take it as gospel when the transmission shop guy said "yo dude... it holds 10-11 quarts."

If I change my fluid I'll be sure and post all the gory details for you. If I were you I wouldn't hold my breath for any fireworks though.

 

[TechWrench]

I can't find the specific amount for a complete drain and refill, but I am certain (after rebuilding 100s) of automatic transmissions, that the figure in the owners manual (3.2 quarts) for a 'drain and refill' is close to only a third of the fluid in the entire unit. This is because the torque converter generally holds about 2/3s of the fluid in an automatic, and it doesn't drain when the pan is removed. There are only three ways to remove the old fluid from a torque converter; remove the transmission and torque converter and drain it ( even then all the fluid doesn't come out), drill a hole in the side and let it drain and then tap the hole and install a drain plug ( a common practice for years in trans shops, if you know what you are doing), or use a flushing system to gradually replace the old fluid with new.

Since the first option is VERY expensive, it is normally only done when the trans has to be remove for an overhaul. The second option only works if you know exactly where to drill the hole in the converter shell so as not to damage any internal components.
So that leaves the third option, a flush. And a flush is not the most efficient method, but the easiest. In simple terms, most flushing machines use the two cooling lines from the trans to the radiator. One is the pressure side to the radiator, the other is the return. With a flush machine, the cooling lines are removed, and two lines from the machine are connected. with the trans engaged, new fluid is pumped into the return line, and the old fluid is collected from the pressure side. Because this is not a completely linear circuit in and out of the trans, some of the new fluid will mix with the old and be pumped out in the collection side before all the old fluid is finally removed. This is the reason for needing more new fluid that a 'dry' teardown unit needs to fill. I have seen quotes from local shops for between $60-$125 for the flush + the fluid. So $200. or more is not out of the ballpark.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

I can't find the specific amount for a complete drain and refill, but I am certain (after rebuilding 100s) of automatic transmissions, that the figure in the owners manual (3.2 quarts) for a 'drain and refill' is close to only a third of the fluid in the entire unit. This is because the torque converter generally holds about 2/3s of the fluid in an automatic, and it doesn't drain when the pan is removed. There are only three ways to remove the old fluid from a torque converter; remove the transmission and torque converter and drain it ( even then all the fluid doesn't come out), drill a hole in the side and let it drain and then tap the hole and install a drain plug ( a common practice for years in trans shops, if you know what you are doing), or use a flushing system to gradually replace the old fluid with new.

Since the first option is VERY expensive, it is normally only done when the trans has to be remove for an overhaul. The second option only works if you know exactly where to drill the hole in the converter shell so as not to damage any internal components.
So that leaves the third option, a flush. And a flush is not the most efficient method, but the easiest. In simple terms, most flushing machines use the two cooling lines from the trans to the radiator. One is the pressure side to the radiator, the other is the return. With a flush machine, the cooling lines are removed, and two lines from the machine are connected. with the trans engaged, new fluid is pumped into the return line, and the old fluid is collected from the pressure side. Because this is not a completely linear circuit in and out of the trans, some of the new fluid will mix with the old and be pumped out in the collection side before all the old fluid is finally removed. This is the reason for needing more new fluid that a 'dry' teardown unit needs to fill. I have seen quotes from local shops for between $60-$125 for the flush + the fluid. So $200. or more is not out of the ballpark.

I agree 100% that on a flush job you'll need more fluid than the capacity of the transmission. I was just trying to get a solid figure on what that capacity actually is. Thanks for the info...

 

[Kanab]

Simply circulating fluid through a transmission doesn't tell you how much it holds. Did someone look it up in a manual or refill one that had been torn down? Do you really know how much it holds or did you just take it as gospel when the transmission shop guy said "yo dude... it holds 10-11 quarts."

You asked a couple of very naive questions when you started this thread and when you were given the answers and a recommendation you want to argue the about the cost of WS ATF, the amount the transmission holds and how it should be serviced. This from the guy that didn't know who originally puts the fluid in the transmission or has the slightest idea of how a transmission flush is performed??


Do the math, transmission holds 3-4 quarts of fluid. The torque converter will hold 2 times that amount. Now add the numbers together and you come up with ( ). Toyota states that you can't mix any other ATF with the "WS" ATF fluid. The flush machine has been using other types of ATF fluid, so now you have to flush the machine out with the WS ATF. Based on your general transmission concerns I would have the dealer check your transmission fluid level. The problems you have discribed you were having in another thread indicate you are low on fluid. Good luck. I am not a transmission expert but I stayed in a Holliday Inn express last night.

PS- check this info out it might give you some information it is 4runner university

http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/htruong/2003_4Runner.pdf

 

[Iowa4Runner]

You asked a couple of very naive questions when you started this thread and when you were given the answers and a recommendation you want to argue the about the cost of WS ATF, the amount the transmission holds and how it should be serviced. This from the guy that didn't know who originally puts the fluid in the transmission or has the slightest idea of how a transmission flush is performed??

Well sort of, I never argued how it should be serviced. Here’s the deal Pitbull, a transmission flush is not rocket science. Any reasonably intelligent person with good information and mechanical aptitude can either do it themselves (with the right tools) or have a shop do it. The fact that I haven’t flushed an automatic transmission before doesn’t mean I don’t have the intelligence to know when I’m getting questionable information. The only piece of verifiable information I got from you was wrong. There’s no reason to get your panties in a wad if I question the source of your other information. The fact that I’m naïve about flushing an automatic transmission doesn’t give any credibility to your information. Your reluctance to tell me how you arrived at the 10-11 qt. figure caused me concern.

Do the math, transmission holds 3-4 quarts of fluid. The torque converter will hold 2 times that amount. Now add the numbers together and you come up with ( ).[/B]

I find this comment quite interesting in light of Techwrench’s recent post.

Toyota states that you can't mix any other ATF with the "WS" ATF fluid. The flush machine has been using other types of ATF fluid, so now you have to flush the machine out with the WS ATF.
[/B]

How many times has this been said? I never questioned it before and I’m not questioning it now.

Based on your general transmission concerns I would have the dealer check your transmission fluid level. The problems you have described you were having in another thread indicate you are low on fluid. [/B]

I bought a 4 liter can last week for just that reason. Later, another thought occurred to me- if the dealer fills the transmission I think it’s quite possible that they used the type IV (or whatever is used in the 2003 4Runners). That being the case, it should have the whole thing flushed. BTW I know they don’t sell the WS type it in quarts, but that was the unit you chose so I stuck with it.

 

[Good Times]

not sure if my post will help but...

i busted my tranny earlier this year in which i had to actually go into a toy shop (not the stealer) to have them check it out. i had them remove the tranny to inspect all the gears (i lost gear 1 and 5 - completely.... had to limp back home in 2/3/4 - another story). anyway, they drained it and checked the valve body per my request to make sure everything was ok. this cost me $200 so i'm not sure how much the drain and fill exactly costed.

good luck

 

[Kanab]

Well sort of, I never argued how it should be serviced. Here’s the deal Pitbull, a transmission flush is not rocket science. Any reasonably intelligent person with good information and mechanical aptitude can either do it themselves (with the right tools) or have a shop do it. The fact that I haven’t flushed an automatic transmission before doesn’t mean I don’t have the intelligence to know when I’m getting questionable information. The only piece of verifiable information I got from you was wrong. There’s no reason to get your panties in a wad if I question the source of your other information. The fact that I’m naïve about flushing an automatic transmission doesn’t give any credibility to your information. Your reluctance to tell me how you arrived at the 10-11 qt. figure caused me concern.


I find this comment quite interesting in light of Techwrench’s recent post.


How many times has this been said? I never questioned it before and I’m not questioning it now.



I bought a 4 liter can last week for just that reason. Later, another thought occurred to me- if the dealer fills the transmission I think it’s quite possible that they used the type IV (or whatever is used in the 2003 4Runners). That being the case, it should have the whole thing flushed. BTW I know they don’t sell the WS type it in quarts, but that was the unit you chose so I stuck with it.

I think we are just having a problem communicating. Here is what I think you are saying. You got your 4runner and then you noticed that it seemed to be slipping first thing in the morning before it warmed up and you had rough shifts. This is a sign of a transmission that is low on fluid. If you took it into the dealer they should of checked it and if not full, filled it up and the problem then went away. If they checked it and added Type IV ATF then it would continue to slip (per Toyota when you mix Type IV with WS) I would suggest that you take it in if it is slipping and shifting hard and express these concerns to the Service manager and ask them to flush it with WS ATF under warranty, since that is the only way to get the Type IV ATF out of the transmission (problem is you can't prove they put Type IV in it . I wouldn't do the flush on your own. Your under warranty and you deserve a smooth shifting transmission. I don't blame you for not trusting the dealer and I would want to watch them do the flush with the correct fluid. There maybe some information in the university of 4runner link I posted that might help you figure out your problem. I would continue to make this the dealers problem since it is covered under warranty. Good luck. If this isn't what you are experiencing then never mind

 

[Iowa4Runner]

I think we are just having a problem communicating. Here is what I think you are saying. You got your 4runner and then you noticed that it seemed to be slipping first thing in the morning before it warmed up and you had rough shifts. This is a sign of a transmission that is low on fluid. If you took it into the dealer they should of checked it and if not full, filled it up and the problem then went away. If they checked it and added Type IV ATF then it would continue to slip (per Toyota when you mix Type IV with WS) I would suggest that you take it in if it is slipping and shifting hard and express these concerns to the Service manager and ask them to flush it with WS ATF under warranty, since that is the only way to get the Type IV ATF out of the transmission (problem is you can't prove they put Type IV in it . I wouldn't do the flush on your own. Your under warranty and you deserve a smooth shifting transmission. I don't blame you for not trusting the dealer and I would want to watch them do the flush with the correct fluid. There maybe some information in the university of 4runner link I posted that might help you figure out your problem. I would continue to make this the dealers problem since it is covered under warranty. Good luck. If this isn't what you are experiencing then never mind

\

Let me clarify a bit. The shifting complaints I have are do, in my estimation, to the electronic control system. There are times when it picks the wrong gear or simply can't make a decision on what gear to use. The slipping upon starting off in "D" in the morning and the noise I hear in 4th gear seem to be mechanical or fluid issues. Shifts are usually fine, even with cold fluid. I asked my dealer about it but never had them add fluid or check the level. They gave me the usual, "It's normal" brush-off.

What I'll probably do is drain the pan and see if I get the 1.8 qts that it supposedly holds. I'll refill it per the service manual procedure and see if anything has improved.

 

[Kanab]

\

Let me clarify a bit. The shifting complaints I have are do, in my estimation, to the electronic control system. There are times when it picks the wrong gear or simply can't make a decision on what gear to use. The slipping upon starting off in "D" in the morning and the noise I hear in 4th gear seem to be mechanical or fluid issues. Shifts are usually fine, even with cold fluid. I asked my dealer about it but never had them add fluid or check the level. They gave me the usual, "It's normal" brush-off.

What I'll probably do is drain the pan and see if I get the 1.8 qts that it supposedly holds. I'll refill it per the service manual procedure and see if anything has improved.

That sounds like a good plan and keeps the dealer from touching it. Which is alway a good idea if possible. Let us know if it was low, I bet that is what is causing your problem. I had a Dodge 3500 4x4 that was low on fluid and did the samething. Added fluid and no more problem. Good luck.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

That sounds like a good plan and keeps the dealer from touching it. Which is alway a good idea if possible. Let us know if it was low, I bet that is what is causing your problem. I had a Dodge 3500 4x4 that was low on fluid and did the samething. Added fluid and no more problem. Good luck.

Thanks, I probably won't have time until Saturday or Sunday to get to it. I'll let you know what I find...

 

[bulldog-yota]

OK, online service manual says the 5speed 4R takes 11.7 qts in the tranny.

http://techinfo.toyota.com/index.html

Go here and subscribe.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

OK, online service manual says the 5speed 4R takes 11.7 qts in the tranny.

http://techinfo.toyota.com/index.html

Go here and subscribe.

I just noticed today that page 02-52 of the hardcopy service manual lists similar refill quantities-

Dry Fill - 11.5 qts.
Drain and Refill - 3.2 qts.


Previously I was incorrectly going by the table on page 40-6.