Request to create a new section has been submitted

[DZNUTS]

While I understand the point of the members who are vouching for the creation of a political section, it appears you are fighting a losing battle.

1engineer has made it clear (to me) that the moderators and site admin have no desire to create a section of the forum that will have a higher propensity for conflict amongst the members

 

[BrianSD_42]

And I totally get that. I don't agree with it but I understand the position. I maintain that the easiest thing to do would be to have a POLITICS section and just move all those threads out of OT as they occur.

 

[TK-422]

I think this would be a great addition to the forum and a place where the mods can take a break from being political themselves.

I am on many forums and it's kinda funny that the ones I visit most have been so against it. I can see that you don't want to have to deal with it but it is nice to post on a forum that has mostly like minded individuals that you can share your thoughts with.

I also like to make smartass photoshops but fear to post them and get on the banned list. Most would get a laugh out of them.

You can have the hardcore section where anything goes and those with soft hearts should not tread and a more light hearted section for those without a tough skin.

The Bronco Forum I regularly visit has a News. Politics and Special Interests forum. It does not have many flame wars.

 

[-JD-]

I think it's a sad and worrying statement about democracy when discussing politics is too much for people. I think banning it only serves to further the anti-intellectual/ignorant attitude that seems to be becoming more and more pervasive in modern society.

In an era when there is more fake news being circulated on facebook than actual news I think the last thing we need to do is implement an all out ban on discussing the subject.

 

[ThorInc]

Climate change is not political. It's climate. Now, politicians make it political but the true discussion about climate change is about carbon dioxide, radiative forcing, sunspots and the like.

Laws are just that... laws. Sure, politicians came up with them but laws, like speeding or trespassing, are not political. They are laws.

Brian, you guys are trying to read too much into this. I said I (me) was thinking about starting a thread on media bias. I did not say YOU need to talk about it or anyone else.

The truth is you can make anything political. Any subject. The truth is you can also make those same subjects non political by discussing the topics themselves.

Good luck man.

You are correct in theory only! eep:

 

[LandCruiser]

I think it's a sad and worrying statement about democracy when discussing politics is too much for people. I think banning it only serves to further the anti-intellectual/ignorant attitude that seems to be becoming more and more pervasive in modern society.

In an era when there is more fake news being circulated on facebook than actual news I think the last thing we need to do is implement an all out ban on discussing the subject.

Dude, where have you been?

You can get a trip to HR for discussing politics in the office and many jobs have a formal or informal no politics policy.

Also, the entire "fake news" thing worries me, because who is going to determine what is "real news?"

Maybe we need a government agency to monitor all news and only let us have access to what they deem is "real."

Maybe we can make the NYT our own Pravda and have them publish articles that the government approves of... oh, wait.

Oh, and for you Anglo Saxons out there and students of irony, Pravda means "truth."

 

[-JD-]

So your question is how do we know whats real? I would start with articles based on facts researched by real journalists. As opposed to bloggers making things up and trying to pass them off as news. Banning discussion of the matter is only going to further exacerbate that problem. How do we determine the difference when we aren't even allowed to discuss the subject?

If you struggle to see the difference we may be in more trouble than I thought.

As for discussing politics in the workplace, this isn't a workplace. If someone is paying for my time then I'm fine with them telling me what not to discuss with coworkers. The rest of the time we should be free to discuss whatever we like. Again, big difference.

 

[1engineer]

So your question is how do we know whats real? I would start with articles based on facts researched by real journalists. As opposed to bloggers making things up and trying to pass them off as news. Banning discussion of the matter is only going to further exacerbate that problem. How do we determine the difference when we aren't even allowed to discuss the subject?

If you struggle to see the difference we may be in more trouble than I thought.

As for discussing politics in the workplace, this isn't a workplace. If someone is paying for my time then I'm fine with them telling me what not to discuss with coworkers. The rest of the time we should be free to discuss whatever we like. Again, big difference.

This is a public forum held by a private corporation for profit. That's why there are rules. The only "freedom of speech" is just like a workplace, whatever the rules allow. I would be glad to post on your forum if you set one up with absolute freedom of speech and no rules. I think I have told you this before but I'll say it again: If you had a forum with no rules and absolute freedom of speech, it would crash from viruses as soon as the porn and spam people found out about it. Don't forget those posts that say "I work from home and make $80 an hour and you can too" or the ones that say "I had migraines until I took this herbal extracts from fly poop." BTW there is no filter for those type of posts. They have to be moderated manually and deleted by hand. You would probably want to exclude those guys though right? As soon as you do there goes your freedom of speech. What you are saying is you want freedom of speech as long as it is moderated to only include YOUR idea of free speech right? Sort of censored to fit your needs? Welcome to this forum. Designed for 4Runner owners.

 

[BrianSD_42]

None of the reasons you listed are strong enough to ban this type of speech entirely. The forum was fine for 10+ years before it was banned.

 

[LandCruiser]

So your question is how do we know whats real? I would start with articles based on facts researched by real journalists. As opposed to bloggers making things up and trying to pass them off as news. Banning discussion of the matter is only going to further exacerbate that problem. How do we determine the difference when we aren't even allowed to discuss the subject?

If you struggle to see the difference we may be in more trouble than I thought.

As for discussing politics in the workplace, this isn't a workplace. If someone is paying for my time then I'm fine with them telling me what not to discuss with coworkers. The rest of the time we should be free to discuss whatever we like. Again, big difference.

When you stand in the snow with your mother for 6 hours to get toilet paper so you don't have to wipe your ass with old paperbacks get back to me.

All I see in the current 'media' is apparatchiks who want a job as the next press secretary.

America reminds me more and more of the East Bloc we escaped from, and it scares me.

 

[-JD-]

This is a public forum held by a private corporation for profit. That's why there are rules. The only "freedom of speech" is just like a workplace, whatever the rules allow. I would be glad to post on your forum if you set one up with absolute freedom of speech and no rules. I think I have told you this before but I'll say it again: If you had a forum with no rules and absolute freedom of speech, it would crash from viruses as soon as the porn and spam people found out about it. Don't forget those posts that say "I work from home and make $80 an hour and you can too" or the ones that say "I had migraines until I took this herbal extracts from fly poop." BTW there is no filter for those type of posts. They have to be moderated manually and deleted by hand. You would probably want to exclude those guys though right? As soon as you do there goes your freedom of speech. What you are saying is you want freedom of speech as long as it is moderated to only include YOUR idea of free speech right? Sort of censored to fit your needs? Welcome to this forum. Designed for 4Runner owners.

I think you're being a bit dramatic here. Is it that hard to differentiate between spam and long time users stating their opinions on an issue? No one was advocating for no rules, or complete free speech.

When you stand in the snow with your mother for 6 hours to get toilet paper so you don't have to wipe your ass with old paperbacks get back to me.

All I see in the current 'media' is apparatchiks who want a job as the next press secretary.

America reminds me more and more of the East Bloc we escaped from, and it scares me.

Ok. So your response to that is to ban discussion on the subject and ignore it?

 

[AKmoney]

Two other vehicle-related forums I visit on a semi-regular basis are Rennlist and bimmerfest.com. Both of them have a "Politics" section that's set up as a child of the standard Off-Topic forum. The Politics & Controversy forum on Rennlist is probably one of the busiest of the site - screenshot attached for reference. Every so often a pissing contest erupts between the mostly right-leaning populace and the odd lefty brave enough to take them on, but for the most part it's civil. I, for one, would welcome such a forum here at T4R.org, if anything, as a temporary experiment. If things get beyond a PG-13 rating, kill it. Either way, I will respect the wishes of the admins as this is, overall, one of the best vehicle-specific communities I've ever participated in.

Might have to go back to the BBQ/Smoking Meat thread. I have a brisket undergoing sous vide as I type this.

 

[ExCabSwap]

If you post in the /politics/ section, you should have a 24 hour ban on flagging/reporting people/posts...

This would prevent little, whiny brats who are losing the keyboard war from annoying mods with this crap haha...

If a member needs to be banned for his/her comments, there would be more than enough members available to submit them for a ban hammer...

There would be enough members posting this: :banplease: on whoever needs it...

Anyway, just my $.02

 

[1engineer]

Two other vehicle-related forums I visit on a semi-regular basis are Rennlist and bimmerfest.com. Both of them have a "Politics" section that's set up as a child of the standard Off-Topic forum. The Politics & Controversy forum on Rennlist is probably one of the busiest of the site - screenshot attached for reference. Every so often a pissing contest erupts between the mostly right-leaning populace and the odd lefty brave enough to take them on, but for the most part it's civil. I, for one, would welcome such a forum here at T4R.org, if anything, as a temporary experiment. If things get beyond a PG-13 rating, kill it. Either way, I will respect the wishes of the admins as this is, overall, one of the best vehicle-specific communities I've ever participated in.

Might have to go back to the BBQ/Smoking Meat thread. I have a brisket undergoing sous vide as I type this.

What they are not saying is we tried that up until recently.

 

[BrianSD_42]

What they are not saying is we tried that up until recently.

I'm not sure what you mean. Politics was never isolated off in a corner of its own.

 

[1engineer]

I'm not sure what you mean. Politics was never isolated off in a corner of its own.

If I have a thread titled Clinton or Trump then that is no difference than having a politics section.

 

[BrianSD_42]

If I have a thread titled Clinton or Trump then that is no difference than having a politics section.

It's actually quite different. For one thing a moderator probably shouldn't be starting Trump/Clinton threads in the first place.

Also if there was a POLITICS separate section then users could simply be warned that no one has a right to not be offended by someone else's speech as long as it doesn't violate the core rules (personal attacks, open racism etc.) and as a result complaints that do not meet the complaint standard would be politely dismissed with advice to only visit /Politics/ if you can play by these specific rules.

You've said that news isn't banned. It comes across as saying news isn't banned but commenting on it is.

When I look at Off Topic now vs a year ago I see no difference in vitriol or content, the only change is that one or more moderators have had enough with the complaints from whiny users and decided to ban all political (indirectly also news) commentary.

 

[AKmoney]

If I have a thread titled Clinton or Trump then that is no difference than having a politics section.

I disagree. Having a separate Politics/Controversy section means exposure to that material is purely optional. It's kept separate from the usual threads about BBQ, watches, firearms, mountain bikes, etc. I don't believe I've ever seen such a forum on this site.

 

[philsey]

...

:deadhorse:

 

[JWaldz]

Politics and religion have never been a topic that remains civil on most forums. There's ALWAYS multiple people who like to stir the pot. Then we, the mods, have to sift through report after report of people complaining about those people who are instigating and attempting to start non-civil conversation. Which is guaranteed to happen. It's an endless cycle and let me tell you, it's one thing to be a mod and try to keep up with the entire forum but it's another to be completely Switzerland on ALL topics.

We don't get paid for this gig, we volunteered and there's not that many active mods here on this forum. We enjoy it this way b/c it makes keeping up to stay neutral between each other that much easier. With that said, we make personal time to go through all the stuff that goes on here on a daily basis. What we don't want is to add to that by having to go through all the bs that politics and religion will bring to this forums. It's unnecessary.

There's MANY other places to read and discuss these 2 topics and we'd like to keep T4R the way it is, without them. They don't have to exist on this forum for it to stay relevant and afloat. There's plenty else to converse about. I don't think it's too much to ask to take these topics elsewhere.