Roof rack controversy. Gobi Vs Whitson

[Scramble]

BTW, WM can easily counter-sue Gobi for financial losses if Gobi claims are false. And yes, i am sure lawyer fees are covered for WM if Gobi is found to be the dumbass here.

this is what I was going to say...

I still will never buy anything from Gobi.

 

[flyfisher4822]

Josh, also praying for you and your family during this time.

And like many others here, if you're back in production, I will order a rack immediately.

 

[CPT2nr88]

having made quite a bit of custom stuff, and making my own roofracks (yes plural) and there is almost no cost in R&D other than the time to make a rack and use it, and the materials to do so. its not rocket science, you dont need to be a engineer to build one or a professional welder... it just takes a little patience, mechanical aptitude, creative thinking and tools. so the argument that Gobi has spent tons of money on R&D is absurd, at least they didn't have to -especially if they are such the small company they are claiming to be.

Not to support Gobi, because I definitely feel that they are in the wrong, but to say that they have almost no cost in R&D other than the time to make the rack, is absolutely absurd. As an engineer, specifically a an Aerospace Engineer (Yup that's right I am a rocket scientist) I can tell you that no matter what product a company brings to market there is a lot of time spend on R&D.

To start with they probably have a few test vehicles that they bring in and use a 3D scanner probably something like a Romer Arm to determine the contour of the roof and the mounting points. Then an design engineer probably designs the structure of the roof rack on 3D software, and simulated different load cases(probably has several different designs). Then a manufacturing engineer probably looks over the design from a manufacturing feasibility point of view and selecting one of the designs and makes further changes probably sending it back to the design engineer to make sure that structurally it is still sound. Basically the manufacturing engineer wants the rack to be easy and cheap to manufacture, that way cost to manufacture each rack goes down. this is where stuff like pinching the ends of the cross members flat and welding them rather than fish mouthing them and welding them comes into play. It cuts an additional step out of manufacturing. The same goes for the joints to which have the sleeves welded over them to join the 2 halves. Yes it doesn't look quite as good, but instead of having 1 longer complicated bent piece they have 2 simpler pieces. In this case the lower pert of the frame are identical, which means you actually just have 1 piece just twice as many this is even better! Now you get a better discount from your supplier because you have a higher quantity of the same part.

It doesn't stop there I'm sure there are a bunch of other quality engineers and I'm willing to bet that they design tooling to hold the rack at different stages of manufacturing. To say there isn't any engineering that goes into a rack is totally wrong. Sure you may have made a couple of racks yourself. but how long did it take you to make each one? I bet it wasn't a day, probably not even week. That's why if some ones wants a gobi, yakima, or tule rack, to name a few, they just call and 1-2 weeks later it's on their doorstep in a box. But if you order a rack from WMW, it takes several months.

This is part of the reason why Gobi's suit is so frivolous. Josh's rack is clearly totally different than theirs. In fact if gobi tried to manufacture josh's rack at the rate of which they make their racks, it would be an absolute calamity. Where Josh spends his own time checking bend radii, fitment and placement during assembly, I'm willing to bet gobi doesn't have someone who cares nearly that much about the finished product. Instead they probably have some guy whose sole job is to weld together 2 halves of the frame, then pass it off to someone else to do the next part of the assembly.

Any well engineered product will look and function like it didn't have a lot of engineering time put into it. It's when something is poorly engineered that it stands out and you notice it as being garbage.

 

[packweco]

Just want to point out that this patent on "roof racks" is essentially like patenting something like a backpack. They are upset that someone else made a satchel with straps. If this is acceptable in society we might as well say goodbye to innovation.

There is going to be no difference between them in their end use. They may even look VERY similar. They both allow someone to put crap on the roof of their car. The difference is in construction and features.

 

[the great him]

Not to support Gobi, because I definitely feel that they are in the wrong, but to say that they have almost no cost in R&D other than the time to make the rack, is absolutely absurd. As an engineer, specifically a an Aerospace Engineer (Yup that's right I am a rocket scientist) I can tell you that no matter what product a company brings to market there is a lot of time spend on R&D.

To start with they probably have a few test vehicles that they bring in and use a 3D scanner probably something like a Romer Arm to determine the contour of the roof and the mounting points. Then an design engineer probably designs the structure of the roof rack on 3D software, and simulated different load cases(probably has several different designs). Then a manufacturing engineer probably looks over the design from a manufacturing feasibility point of view and selecting one of the designs and makes further changes probably sending it back to the design engineer to make sure that structurally it is still sound. Basically the manufacturing engineer wants the rack to be easy and cheap to manufacture, that way cost to manufacture each rack goes down. this is where stuff like pinching the ends of the cross members flat and welding them rather than fish mouthing them and welding them comes into play. It cuts an additional step out of manufacturing. The same goes for the joints to which have the sleeves welded over them to join the 2 halves. Yes it doesn't look quite as good, but instead of having 1 longer complicated bent piece they have 2 simpler pieces. In this case the lower pert of the frame are identical, which means you actually just have 1 piece just twice as many this is even better! Now you get a better discount from your supplier because you have a higher quantity of the same part.

It doesn't stop there I'm sure there are a bunch of other quality engineers and I'm willing to bet that they design tooling to hold the rack at different stages of manufacturing. To say there isn't any engineering that goes into a rack is totally wrong. Sure you may have made a couple of racks yourself. but how long did it take you to make each one? I bet it wasn't a day, probably not even week. That's why if some ones wants a gobi, yakima, or tule rack, to name a few, they just call and 1-2 weeks later it's on their doorstep in a box. But if you order a rack from WMW, it takes several months.

This is part of the reason why Gobi's suit is so frivolous. Josh's rack is clearly totally different than theirs. In fact if gobi tried to manufacture josh's rack at the rate of which they make their racks, it would be an absolute calamity. Where Josh spends his own time checking bend radii, fitment and placement during assembly, I'm willing to bet gobi doesn't have someone who cares nearly that much about the finished product. Instead they probably have some guy whose sole job is to weld together 2 halves of the frame, then pass it off to someone else to do the next part of the assembly.

Any well engineered product will look and function like it didn't have a lot of engineering time put into it. It's when something is poorly engineered that it stands out and you notice it as being garbage.

I have built a few roofracks, I didn't need any software or scans... It does not take an engineer to build one. Sometimes people get hung up on having to do something... WM proved he needed no engineering or r&d, just like I did. Now if Gobi went out and paid tens of thousands of dollars for r&d and a team of engineers to design a roofracks that's on them, they are the fools. Look at a lot of the companies making bumpers and the like... They just buld it from scratch and adjust as needed as they use the product or get customer feedback.

 

[CPT2nr88]

Just want to point out that this patent on "roof racks" is essentially like patenting something like a backpack. They are upset that someone else made a satchel with straps. If this is acceptable in society we might as well say goodbye to innovation.

So I actually did a little digging and found the the lawsuit that was filed against WMW, as well as the claimed patents that are infringed upon. And I totally agree with you. Gobi's patent is for a roof rack that attaches to the roof rails of a car. That is incredibly broad and I am amazed that something like that can be claimed.

Word for word this is what gobi's patent is for:

Thus, it is one aspect of the present invention to provide a storage rack adapted for interconnection with the roof of a vehicle, comprising:

a lower support structure having a front member and a rear member with two side members positioned therebetween, said rear member also including an arcuate member located between said two side members and extending toward said front member;
an upper support structure of generally the same shape of said lower support structure;
a plurality of vertical members interconnecting said lower support structure to said upper support structure to define a semi-enclosed storage area;
a plurality of transverse members spanning between said two side members of said lower support structure;
a plurality of longitudinal members spanning between at least two of said plurality of transverse members; and
a spare tire support structure interconnected to said lower support structure and bounded by said arcuate member wherein a spare tire may be selectively interconnected to said storage rack such that it rests on said spare tire support structure adjacent to said arcuate member of said lower support structure and said arcuate member of upper support structure, wherein the spare tire may be selectively positioned and removed from said storage rack without lifting the spare tire over said upper support structure.

The Summary of the Invention is neither intended nor should it be construed as being representative of the full extent and scope of the present invention. The present invention is set forth in various levels of detail in the Summary of the Invention as well as in the attached drawings and the Detailed Description of the Invention and no limitation as to the scope of the present invention is intended by either the inclusion or non-inclusion of elements, components, etc. in this Summary of the Invention.

The Paul Badillo(gobi's owner) had a good patent attorney for when he filed this. It leaves it very wide open! there is no way that a judge would be able to enforce this.

Also to sum up the lawsuit gobi wants WMW to completely stop production and not continue EVER! plus pay them royalties for every rack he has sold, as well as cover their legal fees!

However since this is America(F*ck Yeah) It is going to be on the Gobi lawyers to provide the burden of proof that WMW knowingly infringed on their patents. Innocent until proven guilty!

What may help WMW is that his racks were customization to allow for different lighting configurations. Additionally the they claim that his rack looks a lot like theirs. Which can easily be argued that the reason it looks similar is driven by the fact that they are both vehicle specific. It is because of this that similarities in dimensions and proportions arise. Not because WMW copied gobi.

Also unrelated to the suit, I found a specific portion of the patent really funny. And to sum it up Paul Badillo is a ricer!!!

Additional electrical connectors for interconnection to speaker wires may be included that provide locations for selective interconnection to speakers that may be used during camping trips or other outings, such as tailgating before a football game. One skilled in the art will appreciate that other lights may be employed on the rack for safety or to add flair to the vehicle, such as neon or flashing lights.

 

[J053619]

After reading this entire thread I really hope none of you took the time out to post negative reviews on Gobi. Its childish and the outcome of this hasn't even been posted yet. Why hurt the company's reputation without all the details?

Also [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] is speaking the truth. I see he is trying to give what might be the other side of the story. Everyone here is already on the idea that Josh did nothing wrong. I still admit, I am siding with Josh since he is a small business, but if he did infringe, then Gobi's course of action is fair game.

 

[who done it]

^^ If you read this last page you can see that Gobi is basically just bullying WMW into submission.

This is coming from someone who owns multiple business, I am extremely protective of my business, but Gobi, in my opinion, is trying to get rid of some of the competition. Not the same by any means, but I had the same issue (bullying basically) with one of my bar's in ohio. So this really irks me.

I think it might be safe to assume that even if Josh gets re-imbursed for the BS lawsuit charges, he may not come back to the arena.

 

[BigWilly]

I do own a Gobi rack but after reading this I am sorry I didn't look further. I'm not saying this is what happened here and not bashing either party, just giving a firsthand experience with a similar bad situation.
Josh sounds like a standup guy I hope everything works out in the end.

Our company was involved in a very similar situation.
We were a very small company, 5-9 employees. We were approached by a large company that was interested in how we did what we did and wanted to work with us. Ultimately we decided to go in another direction and that's when the S*** hit the fan.

We got a visit one day from the other companies attorney who said we were infringing on their patent. They had what I believe is called a "workflow patent". In short if you use a specific number of measurable steps in order to get a certain result you too can own a patent. What a load of crap!
Example…Let’s just say when you are changing the oil in your car you first lift the car up, then remove oil plug, then fill with new oil…and so on…blah blah blah…You can get a patent, get a layer then have them chase companies until they pay up.
I know…Its total crap.

After further searching into it we came across what’s known as a "Patent Troll". In simple terms these are companies (Lawyers) that go around enforcing patents. Most of the time they go after smaller companies and end up settling for less than it would take the smaller company to fight. Again…total crap!

 

[Thai]

After reading this entire thread I really hope none of you took the time out to post negative reviews on Gobi. Its childish and the outcome of this hasn't even been posted yet. Why hurt the company's reputation without all the details?

Also [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] is speaking the truth. I see he is trying to give what might be the other side of the story. Everyone here is already on the idea that Josh did nothing wrong. I still admit, I am siding with Josh since he is a small business, but if he did infringe, then Gobi's course of action is fair game.

I am pretty sure most folks here have made up their mind already...without waiting for FACTS to come out...without hearing the OTHER side...without even knowing the DETAILS of the actual lawsuit.

Witch hunt anyone? :madgrin: Grab your pitch and forks everyone!!! Well, in today's world, lets all get on Twitter and Facebook and spam the daylights out of Gobi! Burn them to hell!!

 

[wadle5]

Also Thai is speaking the truth. I see he is trying to give what might be the other side of the story. Everyone here is already on the idea that Josh did nothing wrong. I still admit, I am siding with Josh since he is a small business, but if he did infringe, then Gobi's course of action is fair game.

While you can listen to the other side of the story that doesn't in fact prove it to be true. Common knowledge and reviewing the products side by side in numerous reviews and posts show in fact they are totally different pieces. I am not siding with Josh just because he is a small business owner(although I respect him and where he came from, and I do understand at one point in time that was Gobi as well), I am siding with Josh because he is being pushed around by a "superior" company who feels threatened by his product.
As the patents wording shows Gobi pretty much owns a system that mounts to the roof of your vehicle. Besides the fact that both products mount on the roof being the only similarity it pretty much ends there. I just find it ironic that GOBI went after WMW, and none of the larger European and Australian made companies. Maybe it is because in fact GOBI was not the first company to produce a roof rack and he knows that his argument will not hold water against these companies that have even deeper pockets than him. He has resorted to a backhanded "legal" route to get his way. I would say it is similar to how a child throws a temper tantrum until the parents just cave to their will. Neither is good practice or productive for true growth.

 

[Thai]

While you can listen to the other side of the story that doesn't in fact prove it to be true. Common knowledge and reviewing the products side by side in numerous reviews and posts show in fact they are totally different pieces. I am not siding with Josh just because he is a small business owner(although I respect him and where he came from, and I do understand at one point in time that was Gobi as well), I am siding with Josh because he is being pushed around by a "superior" company who feels threatened by his product.
As the patents wording shows Gobi pretty much owns a system that mounts to the roof of your vehicle. Besides the fact that both products mount on the roof being the only similarity it pretty much ends there. I just find it ironic that GOBI went after WMW, and none of the larger European and Australian made companies. Maybe it is because in fact GOBI was not the first company to produce a roof rack and he knows that his argument will not hold water against these companies that have even deeper pockets than him. He has resorted to a backhanded "legal" route to get his way. I would say it is similar to how a child throws a temper tantrum until the parents just cave to their will. Neither is good practice or productive for true growth.

Didn't Gobi go after Baja too? Baja has deeper pockets I think.

Have you seen the Gobi vs. WM lawsuit details? Can you post them up? Thanks.

 

[wadle5]

even knowing the DETAILS of the actual lawsuit.

Witch hunt anyone? :madgrin: Grab your pitch and forks everyone!!! Well, in today's world, lets all get on Twitter and Facebook and spam the daylights out of Gobi! Burn them to hell!!

Again at grabbing straws and the Elite king of deflection. The clear details of the lawsuit were just shown. So now what could we possibly be making up about the actions and accusations Gobi is making towards WMW? :wtf:

 

[wadle5]

Didn't Gobi go after Baja too? Baja has deeper pockets I think.

Have you seen the Gobi vs. WM lawsuit details? Can you post them up? Thanks.

Post 87 oh thorough almighty one. . . . . :fencing:

 

[Thai]

Again at grabbing straws and the Elite king of deflection. The clear details of the lawsuit were just shown. So now what could we possibly be making up about the actions and accusations Gobi is making towards WMW? :wtf:

I see the patent...what is the lawsuit language? Which part of the patent did they focus on?

Again, why not wait? Is your ass burning with rage these days to not wait for a judgment?

Was it you that said to spam Gobi on social media??

 

[wadle5]

I see the patent...what is the lawsuit language? Which part of the patent did they focus on?

Again, why not wait? Is your ass burning with rage these days to not wait for a judgment?

Was it you that said to spam Gobi on social media??

I feel like you just posts without actually reading what discussion you are contributing to. I don't think I should have to keep reposting and quoting other posts because you can't thoroughly dissect a conversation. It was NOT me that said to spam Gobi, in fact no one actually said those exact words. But I am going to let you do your own research and find it for yourself, sorry I cant keep doing all the legwork for you.

 

[Thai]

I feel like you just posts without actually reading what discussion you are contributing to. I don't think I should have to keep reposting and quoting other posts because you can't thoroughly dissect a conversation. It was NOT me that said to spam Gobi, in fact no one actually said those exact words. But I am going to let you do your own research and find it for yourself, sorry I cant keep doing all the legwork for you.

It was MyHigh...but both of you guys have the same flawed logic in this whole argument.

Again, why not wait for the final judgment? What do you have to lose? Stop with this ridiculous witch hunt!

IF Gobi's claims are outrageous, then this case will be thrown out very quickly. WAIT. PATIENCE is a virtue.

And Baja will eat Gobi for lunch since they have deeper pockets!

 

[wadle5]

It was MyHigh...but both of you guys have the same flawed logic in this whole argument.

Again, why not wait for the final judgment? What do you have to lose? Stop with this ridiculous witch hunt!

IF Gobi's claims are outrageous, then this case will be thrown out very quickly. WAIT. PATIENCE is a virtue.

And Baja will eat Gobi for lunch since they have deeper pockets!

Congratulations you found the individual who said "maybe after they see what hit they will take on social media" he never condoned to SPAM them as you stated.
In regards to final judgement of the legal system, I would argue that you forgot about innocent until proven guilty. Seems like this entire legal standard you are supporting you are totally omitting one of the major thought processes of it all.
And like most of your argument you are forgetting the other virtues charity, diligence, kindness, and humility. But it seems to me again you only pick and chose what benefits your argument.

 

[Thai]

In regards to final judgement of the legal system, I would argue that you forgot about innocent until proven guilty. Seems like this entire legal standard you are supporting you are totally omitting one of the major thought processes of it all.
And like most of your argument you are forgetting the other virtues charity, diligence, kindness, and humility. But it seems to me again you only pick and chose what benefits your argument.

When did anyone said WM was guilty? Oh wait, you ignorantly mis-read my post to say that I did!

My other arguments what?! WTF are you even talking about now?! :wtf:

 

[wadle5]

My other arguments what?! WTF are you even talking about now?! :wtf:

To finally repost your post, because you dont remeber what you posted just 1 response up(hope you follow me here). You said. . ..and I quote...
"PATIENCE is a virtue".

1 for 7 virtues is good, but even you can't stick to that let alone the other ones. I apologize for your severe misfortune of not being able to review your own thoughts/comments you have transposed on to the world wide web.

Your sole response throughout this "discussion" has been making a claim, and then when challenged to confirm or support that you say that you have no idea what I am talking about I am just taking it personal. Trust me there is nothing personal about you/Gobi/WMW or actually T4R.org. Simply the system at hand and how you believe your word to be the word of God and final say on the matter, no matter how many times numerous other individuals have not only disagreed with your stance, but have methodically broken down the differences between the two products in question. You have blatantly posted several times out of ignorance in itself and it is truly sad you have filled up this thread with your circular arguments/rants.