Roof rack controversy. Gobi Vs Whitson

[CPT2nr88]

2). Patent law is complicated (I don’t fully understand it either) but as Paul said, he’s been involved with them for a long time and way before he and Sandra started GOBI. If I ever needed advice on patent law I would ask him actually. Regardless of the opinion of a bunch of forum people, GOBI (obviously), see strong evidence of infringement. A patent is not about angles or tube ODs, it’s about concepts and in this arena GOBI got there first apparently or they would not have been awarded to them. The posts about Thule and other racks are not really apples to apples, again IMHO, they don’t make the same type of high end vehicle specific adventure racks and GOBI don’t make generic car racks. Paul and Sandra are business people, they didn’t pay their lawyer to advise them and subsequently file the complaint on a whim or out of spite to stop a small guy building a few racks. They are protecting their (and their employees) livelihood, as they should. As Paul mentioned, they’ve been burnt doing this the “nice” (wrong) way, that’s why seasoned companies hire lawyers and do it the “right” way, it’s nothing personal it’s business. Not one business, ever, has said they like paying or even talking to lawyers

Gobi was not the first company in the world to make vehicle specific roof racks. By suing WMW it appears that that is what they are saying. If Gobi or WMW never existed and I went outside to build a roof rack specifically for my car you can damn well bet that it would look similar to both of them. The only difference would be that my roof wouldn't have a removable sunroof part because my sunroof guide lubricant turned into cement and seized(thanks toyota)

Step 1: How do I attach it? well since I'm making a roof rack I don't need the cross bars anymore. They are held on sturdy, I'll use whatever they are mounted to.

Step 2: I'm going to make a frame which will enclose the size of the roof rack. Should I use square tube or round tube? Well square tube is nice but holy crap is it hard to get bent square tube for cheap! I'm going to use round tube instead.

Step 3: now I need to make a floor for my rack so i don't scratch my roof paint. I'll run horizontal members across the roof. because if I run them longitudinally they will need to be thicker to be stiffer over a longer distance. (cubed root vs square root proportions, stiffness... Engineering 101)
Also it would be awesome if little things didn't fall through the bars. Nets hold stuff pretty well. but they get tangled. How about expanded metal sheets would work awesome for this!

Step 4: Since I don't want my shit to fall off my roof rack into the mud when I'm off-roading, so I better build up a lip to the perimeter to keep everything from sliding off.

Step 5: I get a hard on for LED lights(seriously I do) so I should put a spot to mount a really really big one in the front, because that's the way my car goes most of the time. but maybe one in the back too because sometimes I liek to back up. And my 4runner doesn't go sideways, but you never know so I'm going to put more lights on the side.

Ta-Da!!! I made a roof rack.

Now instead if I said I want a roof rack and I know my buddy with a 4runner has one too. and instead of doing the work myself I decide I'm going to go copy his and just make one that looks just like it... then that's a no-no.

Could you Imagine if Shockwerks decided to sue CBI offroad for stealing their idea for a steel plate bumper? or maybe even ARB? And don't get me started on rock sliders. Those are bent round tube too! These companies better be careful!

Are you starting to see why this lawsuit is ludicrous and looks like someone greedy just trying to just shut someone else down because they make a product that has the same function, but is cheaper and better? Paul had the opportunity to explain himself and his company's actions and nothing he said supports this being a legitimate claim.

 

[Xrider237]

I'm not saying Gobi is a patent troll, just that they saw an opportunity to go after a couple other companies that were making the same thing, albeit not the same design, and jumped on it. Without a response, it's an automatic win, which means automatic money/royalties or shut down of a company. In turn that means increased business. Unfortunately for Gobi, they weren't expecting an entire community to back the "little man"

and to be clear, i would feel 100% the exact same way if another company went after gobi for the same reason- this isnt a personal issue w gobi per se, its about maintaining a fair marketplace where there is room for competition...WM wasnt gonna put gobi out of business

 

[ajonesnv]

So when the dust settles we'll have one rack to choose from?

One rack to rule them all.

 

[ajonesnv]

Could you Imagine if Shockwerks decided to sue CBI offroad for stealing their idea for a steel plate bumper? or maybe even ARB? And don't get me started on rock sliders. Those are bent round tube too! These companies better be careful!

Not to mention UCA's...Im still trying to find out the differences in two of the major brands.

Nail on the head...it s roof rack similarities will be there.

 

[ajonesnv]

Like I said before - this site is popular on google, I saw it, read it and joined. I am of no side... just use logic in everyday life and have no qualms about posting my logic on a public forums... just like you.

Just a quick quote, so when its deleted the proof remains...LOL "Like I said before - this site is popular on google, I saw it, read it and joined." what a joke!

 

[MightyP]

I'm no lawyer. I've never owned a business and never been in a legal battle. The closest I came was a summons for jury duty and I got booted almost immediately. So please forgive the ignorance, but if one is going to file an official complaint to someone else, wouldn't you want proof? I realize email is forever (just ask a certain presidential candidate) but what about a certified letter?

I had a landlord who suspiciously didn't get the move out notice I personally put in his mailbox, so I then just sent the letter certified mail and had proof it arrived.

Gobi is under no obligation to provide any proof to us on the forums, but if clueless me knows to send a letter certified mail, I'd think a company would too.

And [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION], you said exactly what I was thinking. Thai and wadle5 fight like an old, married couple and haven't really said anything new since about page 4. They may not like it, but they are now forever joined in this thread.

 

[MightyP]

[MENTION=129754]IronMaidenFan[/MENTION],

Thanks for showing up, being up front with who you are and giving an honest opinion from the other side, not to mention putting up with some BS. It was a dick move on [MENTION=165]momo.75[/MENTION]'s part to use your name after you specifically requested it not be. Since he didn't apologize, I will do so for him. You have represented an opposing view very well.

Truthfully, I hope WMW wins this and goes back in business. It's not that I want Gobi to lose business, but genuine competition is good for the me, the consumer. I understand Gobi's concern, but WMW isn't some company that just reverse engineered a Gobi rack and is mass producing a cheap knock-off. Josh, who probably didn't do as much legal research as he should have up front, really seems like a guy who cares about doing the right thing. Unfortunately, based on what I've seen here, Gobi isn't as concerned about being upfront and honest.

Anyway, welcome to T4R.org!

 

[warrenvt]

I think someone should make a flow chart/decision tree of the arguments, the arguments about the arguments, and then add a section about the arguments of the arguments about their own argument.

Too many plots and story lines at this point to see who is making an argument about what, and against who at this point.

:bounce:

 

[Xrider237]

^^^part of the explanation is that there has been a LOT of facts/data brought to light since the thread was started and as a result swayed peoples' opinions

keep in mind this is a forum about toyota 4runners so you're gonna get a wide variety responses

 

[MightyP]

So I have thought about it and calling out [MENTION=165]momo.75[/MENTION] openly, without first going to him privately, was also a dick move. So, momo, I apologize.

 

[momo.75]

Thanks [MENTION=121993]MightyP[/MENTION] but i don't need you to apologize for me. Yes, i did say his first name but why not adress people by their name. It would be different if i disclosed his full name, business and title. Paul gave his name when he adressed the forum. Doesn't appear he was as butt hurt anout it as you were since we had a little BBQ banter going. Why hise in a complete cloak of the internet. You see how Amanda handled coming to light. If you have issues with me just shoot me a pm and i will see what i can do to help you with those.

Morris

 

[wadle5]

and haven't really said anything new since about page 4. They may not like it, but they are now forever joined in this thread.

I feel like you are forgetting the proof of the fake account and the questions posed to paul in the following pages and the fact that every time Thai tried to steer the conversation away from the thread topic(which is a common occurrence in whatever thread he is in) I brought the facts back up again, which he non-chanlantyl dismissed and now I somehow lose my creditability. He resorted to then making personal attacks(again seems constructive to this thread). I said several times to stay on topic. It's just sad that Thai has historically done this and everytime someone tells both parties to quit. The common denominator has always been Thai. And for someone like him to continuously get away with those actions is ridiculous. So please don't affiliate me with that as I have actually contributed relative information to this thread and all he has done is trolled and instigated.

Thanks [MENTION=121993]MightyP[/MENTION] but i don't need you to apologize for me. Yes, i did say his first name but why not adress people by their name. It would be different if i disclosed his full name, business and title. Paul gave his name when he adressed the forum. Doesn't appear he was as butt hurt anout it as you were since we had a little BBQ banter going. Why hide in a complete cloak of the internet. You see how Amanda handled coming to light. If you have issues with me just shoot me a pm and i will see what i can do to help you with those.

Morris

And I agree with this again like the other spam accounts. Let me just get on and say I'm totally in support of the opposing company, but by no means want my affiliation with that company to be know to the general public though. We go way back and out great friends. IF you truly believe in the upstanding company they are why would you not be proud to show your namesake and your business supporting them?

 

[IronMaidenFan]

I think the name thing was taken the wrong way, but if you read my post I sort of explained it.

I don’t know this forum but am on many jeep forums. Some (most) have strict rules about nonpaying vendors posting anything at all because people claim it’s a way to bypass being a true sponsor. Pimping on jeep forums is also common, someone joins and starts saying all kinds of great things about a product/company pretending to be an end user etc. Basically, I am just trying to avoid the perception that I’m trying to advertise but was very up-front about my background without specifically saying. Connecting the dots is not that hard, a couple of people PM’ed me and figured it out.

Honestly, I’ve been on forums since they started and generally use my real first name and last initial as my forum handle, always have and always will. Funnily enough when I joined here and it asked for a user name I was stumped, happened to be listening to Iron Maiden so went with it. I could just as easily have been even lamer like something laying on my desk, casio-ms-805 or something

 

[Range]

Anybody know if 285's will rub on 22's?

 

[jdemello]

Anybody know if 285's will rub on 22's?

Best post of the whole thread

 

[MightyP]

As a friend of mine who’s kept up with this thread mentioned, I don’t just poke a bear, I poked three…

Thanks [MENTION=121993]MightyP[/MENTION] but i don't need you to apologize for me. Yes, i did say his first name but why not adress people by their name. It would be different if i disclosed his full name, business and title. Paul gave his name when he adressed the forum. Doesn't appear he was as butt hurt anout it as you were since we had a little BBQ banter going. Why hise in a complete cloak of the internet. You see how Amanda handled coming to light. If you have issues with me just shoot me a pm and i will see what i can do to help you with those.

Morris

Morris,
Whether IronMaidenFan wants his name open to the world or not is HIS decision, not anyone else’s. If that is to be the standard for T4R.org, it needs to be in the rules as mandatory instead of optional. He was open with who he was and what his affiliations are, even to the point of offering to prove who he was to moderators. Too many keyboard commandos (and I’m not saying, implying or even thinking you are one) feel it’s their duty to bring to light every detail they can about someone they disagree with, like it is some great conspiracy when someone wants some privacy. I rarely post my name on forums. Why? Because it makes it that much easier to the dumbasses of the internet to find out even more about me. Can someone with some skill still figure it out? Sure, but I’d rather these people have to work at it a little. And I’m a house husband, it’s not like I have a whole lot to hide!
I have no issue with you personally. I don’t know you. With the exception of providing personal information of other members without their consent, you have been professional, cordial and informative.

I feel like you are forgetting the proof of the fake account and the questions posed to paul in the following pages and the fact that every time Thai tried to steer the conversation away from the thread topic(which is a common occurrence in whatever thread he is in) I brought the facts back up again, which he non-chanlantyl dismissed and now I somehow lose my creditability. He resorted to then making personal attacks(again seems constructive to this thread). I said several times to stay on topic. It's just sad that Thai has historically done this and everytime someone tells both parties to quit. The common denominator has always been Thai. And for someone like him to continuously get away with those actions is ridiculous. So please don't affiliate me with that as I have actually contributed relative information to this thread and all he has done is trolled and instigated.

wadle5,
I’m not debating your presentation of the facts. You are correct that there have been shady things from Gobi and some people related to them. Truthfully, I agreed with Thai and his points all the way until he started calling you names. It became impossible to defend when whohastime jumped in. There has been quite a bit of “Gobi is goliath. We hate Gobi” on this thread. Gobi may have 27x the number of employees and they may be the bullying WMW, but if they have a legal and enforceable patent for all vehicle specific roof racks, then they’re well within their rights to seek restitution, regardless of whether they have been censoring public debate and making up fake accounts. Shoot, even if they THINK their lawful patent is being infringed upon, it’s their right to ask a judge/jury to decide whether or not it’s true. Does it suck for Josh? Absolutely. If this thing causes WMW to go out of business, is it bad for all of us? Absolutely. I was on the fence between these two exact racks before all this came out and information provided on this thread has convinced me the WMW rack is the better choice, even if it was the same price as the Gobi rack. So I’m really hoping WMW can/will still make racks after all this because I am ready to purchase a rack from WMW as soon as this is over.

…

I’ve now poked the bears and stirred the pot a bit. I’m now ready to go back to lurking as I have no useful information to provide in this thread. op2:

 

[momo.75]

I’ve now poked the bears and stirred the pot a bit. I’m now ready to go back to lurking as I have no useful information to provide in this thread. op2:

Thanks for stopping by

 

[BrianSD_42]

This was posted before. You should really listen to it.

When Patents Attack! | This American Life

Sandra called me this morning to ask my advice on a “forum problem”. I had not read this thread and basically said you can’t fight social media, if your position is steadfast and not what they want to hear, you either ignore it or just state your case, maybe try to clarify a point or two and let them all have at it. Generally these things blow over eventually when the next thing the majority perceives as wrong pops up, like a lion named Cecil or whatever

When Patents Attack! | This American Life



[MENTION=129754]IronMaidenFan[/MENTION]

The best advice you can give Sandra and Paul is to tell them to listen to the 1 hour podcast linked BECAUSE not only does it explain that the patent system is currently broken but it also explains how certain companies are abusing the original intent of the patent system to go after small businesses in frivolous lawsuits backed up by vague patents.


That is exactly what WMW and the people on this forum who are critiquing Gobi are ticked off about. The general (non-judicial) consensus is that Gobi is ACTING WITH BAD MORALS against a guy who like much like Savage Offroad literally does business manufacturing in their garage and backyard. WMW makes these things by hand. Compared to him Gobi is definitely a huge company.

It seems like Paul and Sandra do not understand:
#1) just because the law allows you to sue
#2) just because the patent office issued a vague as heck patent

--> DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY LESS SLIMY to sue someone out of business for what amounts to infringing on a patent that never should have been issued in the first place.

Also as bonus advice #3) you could tell them that filing a LAWSUIT with a court date is not the same thing as a cease and desist letter / complaint.


:bat:

 

[MyHigh]

Well said Brian,

You can always be counted upon to dig a little deeper then most and to share any information you find no matter what side of the coin it lands.

 

[doubleroses]

Gobi has lost my future business and I hope others read this as a reference to their lack of ethical practice.