rust prevention ideas?

[TheUltimateBohab]

I know this is been posted probably numerous times on here but I wanted to share my ideas and see what you all think. It's imperative that I keep my 4Runner for life so in order to do that I need to be very proactive with my frame rust. I live in one of the medium sized cities in Wisconsin and they use salt water on the roads so it gets everywhere. So before winter hits this year I want to have everything underneath coated this is my plan tell me what you guys think or if I'm wasting money or time...

First I was obviously going to wire brush or sand blast all the surface rust that's on their off and then I was going to coat the whole thing with this rust converter that I found on Amazon.

Rust Converter ULTRA, Highly Effective Professional Grade Rust Repair (1 Gallon) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014LR5PA2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EMYjDbQB0PKDB

After I was done doing that I was going to hit the whole frame with por15

POR-15 45404 Rust Preventive Coating Semi-Gloss Black - 1 quart https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H2VVQNU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_A8YjDbFMSGX0E

And then lastly I was going to do the entire inside of the frame with some stuff I found on this forum....

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/171083-frame-rust-prevention-2.html

What you guys is thoughts on that am I wasting money on the por or other rust converter are they the same thing?

 

[ggreyrunner]

Research Fluid Film, there should be several threads on the subject. You may not want to even do all of the other steps if you use FF.

 

[hinmo24t]

fluid film or something on top of the por 15 or other product. fluid film on top of existing rust solely might just wash off after a season and then continue. im going the por15 and 3m undercoating route with mine, with an oil like FF on top of that

 

[firebirdguy]

i posted in other recent threads about using por15. it is not designed to be used over another coating or paint... using por15 over a rust converter product or any paint including the factory paint is not what it is designed for.

por stands for paint over rust, its designed to be applied directly over rusty metal or clean metal thats been scuffed or etched, it encapsulates the rust & turns to a hard skin that doesnt let any oxygen in, so it stops further rust. applying over another coating is a waste of the product as its only as strong as the coating under it.

i suggest using it only on scuffed/etched bare metal or lightly rusted metal thats been wire wheeled or scuffed up some way to remove any loose scale. the direction on the can state this as well.

probably best to remove as much of the rust as you can & then decide to use por over it, or a rust converter then/or another good quality rust prevewntive paint like rustoleum. after either of thos products are used, the fluid film is supposed to be a good top coat that you can reapply each year to help protect teh paint or por.

 

[rwrobs777]

I used POR 15 last year and that stuff is fantastic...you also should buy the degreaser and metal prep...whatever you do...DO NOT LET THAT STUFF DRY ON YOUR SKIN !!...NOTHING TAKES IT OFF !!....your skin has to flake off before it's gone...I had a bit on my forearm and it took 3 weeks before it was gone...got yourself and Tyvek suit, gloves, and some kind of hat and I'd wear a facemask too !!

 

[firebirdguy]

yes its good stuff, but needs to be used the correct way. too many people think they can just coat over existing paint etc, while it will stick & last for awhile, thats not how it shoudl be applied. & yes it is very hard to get off skin once dried, but comes off easily with water or paint thinner before it cures.

eastwood makes a similar product for a little less $$.

 

[Keros]

i posted in other recent threads about using por15. it is not designed to be used over another coating or paint... using por15 over a rust converter product or any paint including the factory paint is not what it is designed for.

por stands for paint over rust, its designed to be applied directly over rusty metal or clean metal thats been scuffed or etched, it encapsulates the rust & turns to a hard skin that doesnt let any oxygen in, so it stops further rust. applying over another coating is a waste of the product as its only as strong as the coating under it.

Absolutely, this detail is often missed by people who've used POR to paint new stuff; and consequently the POR paint comes off in large strips. POR is intended for old metal that's weathered, pitted, rusty, and otherwise aged. It'll peel right off of any metal that's smooth. It requires not just etching on smooth parts, but wirewheeling or sanding to create enough voids for the stuff to hold onto.

Paint your '79 cruiser's axles with it, no problem. Coating will outlast truck.

New DOM sliders with it... a carwash may take it all off.

Rust Bullet is a half-way between both, where it will stick to a properly etched surface, lasts well, and does its job.

I painted the last 3 feet of my 4Runner's frame and the rear hitch with Rust Bullet 3 years ago and it still looks new. It was an enormous amount of work to prep and paint.

POR 15 and Rust Bullet may appear to be very similar however I've come to see they're quite different in their intended use and application process. Though their end goal is the same, the methodology is very different.

Have a look at both and see which one suits your situation better.

I failed to find any quantifiable difference in ability and performance that would indicate one is superior rust protection to the other.

A friend of mine did his Landcruiser axle with POR 15 and the paint coating would deflect a chisel without damage. However, I read about a guy who did a restored car frame (bare metal) with POR 15, and he nicked it with a screw driver, and fiddled with the nick... and peeled off giant chunks of the paint.

The dude doing the frame should have used Rust Bullet in that application. Rust bullet relies on its applied film thickness to work... if there's thin spots in the paint it will rust through. So application technique is important.

 

[MikeinNH67]

Frames usually rust from the inside out, salt, sand and moisture gets trapped in there. My opinion is to oil/fluid film it once a year. My mechanic does a 4runner sized vehicle for around $200. He has nozzles to spray it inside the frame. There's kits to do it yourself too.

I plan to do this to mine but need to blow the 10 pounds of sand out first.

 

[firebirdguy]

Frames usually rust from the inside out, salt, sand and moisture gets trapped in there. My opinion is to oil/fluid film it once a year. My mechanic does a 4runner sized vehicle for around $200. He has nozzles to spray it inside the frame. There's kits to do it yourself too.

I plan to do this to mine but need to blow the 10 pounds of sand out first.

rust can happen internally, but on our 4runners thats not usually the case as far as what you see on the outside of the frame. its the black coating that toyota used that degrades & fails then allows the frame to rust. usually first & the worst at the welds, then other areas around the rust spots start to grow & cause the coating to peel off & rust underneath. none of that is due to internal rust coming all the way through the thickness of the metal.

same goes for solid suspension parts that get so rusty on 4runners & tacomas, look at the rear axle or the lower control arms etc, they are just as rusty as the frames & are not rusting from the inside out.

just wanted to clarify that frames do not usually rust from the inside out, or at least not what the majority of what we see & read about for frame rust on these 4runners, its the coating that fails & peels & flakes off allowing the external frame & suspension parts to rust. but yes, frames can rust internally too & a coating of some type is worth while to use.

 

[MikeinNH67]

rust can happen internally, but on our 4runners thats not usually the case as far as what you see on the outside of the frame. its the black coating that toyota used that degrades & fails then allows the frame to rust. usually first & the worst at the welds, then other areas around the rust spots start to grow & cause the coating to peel off & rust underneath. none of that is due to internal rust coming all the way through the thickness of the metal.

same goes for solid suspension parts that get so rusty on 4runners & tacomas, look at the rear axle or the lower control arms etc, they are just as rusty as the frames & are not rusting from the inside out.

just wanted to clarify that frames do not usually rust from the inside out, or at least not what the majority of what we see & read about for frame rust on these 4runners, its the coating that fails & peels & flakes off allowing the external frame & suspension parts to rust. but yes, frames can rust internally too & a coating of some type is worth while to use.

I'm new to 4runners so will not dispute what you are saying. As for Rangers and XJs, they do rust first on the interior side. Rangers where the two frame halves meet near the fuel tank, Cherokees from the inside out. On these 2 vehicles when you see the rust externally it's too late. Better safe than sorry for oiling the inside of the frame too. I truly hope you are correct as my runner is easily seen as flaky on the outside but the inside concerns me because of the other vehicles I have dealt with. Plus the frame tubes seem to be full of sand. Dunno if that is normal or if the PO just lived on a dirt road.

 

[firebirdguy]

im not disputing that frames can rust from the inside out, just that its not as common as the external issues i mentioned above. for a frame to rust from inside to out, the metal itself would be completely gone by the time it showed up on the outside, meaning complete failure of the frame itself. & that can & does happen in very extreme cases, but the vast majority of what you see on rust belt area frames is external & due to the coating failing.

cant speak to rangers as ive never owned one, but as for cherokees, it is also mostly external. i just came from owning a 97 cherokee for 15+ years as a daily driver here in iowa... the underside of the frame & floors were very rusty with loose scale flaking off & major pitting in areas, especially after they started using the liquid salt brine on the roads in the last 8-10 years. but it was almost all external rust just like the 3rd & 4th gen 4runners i see in these parts... the frame itself was still solid, could not poke a hole anywhere on the frame or suspension components with a screwdriver & hammer, still solid metal, just very ugly with heavy surface rust everywhere including the driveshaft, rear axle, frame & floors. the rockers however were shot & were rusting holes from the inside out.

i agree rust can start internally, just that most of it is external. unless of course the prev owner took it swimming & mudding & abused the crap out of it like so many of the off-road wheeling guys do.

 

[Jdevtac]

im not disputing that frames can rust from the inside out, just that its not as common as the external issues i mentioned above. for a frame to rust from inside to out, the metal itself would be completely gone by the time it showed up on the outside, meaning complete failure of the frame itself. & that can & does happen in very extreme cases, but the vast majority of what you see on rust belt area frames is external & due to the coating failing.

cant speak to rangers as ive never owned one, but as for cherokees, it is also mostly external. i just came from owning a 97 cherokee for 15+ years as a daily driver here in iowa... the underside of the frame & floors were very rusty with loose scale flaking off & major pitting in areas, especially after they started using the liquid salt brine on the roads in the last 8-10 years. but it was almost all external rust just like the 3rd & 4th gen 4runners i see in these parts... the frame itself was still solid, could not poke a hole anywhere on the frame or suspension components with a screwdriver & hammer, still solid metal, just very ugly with heavy surface rust everywhere including the driveshaft, rear axle, frame & floors. the rockers however were shot & were rusting holes from the inside out.

i agree rust can start internally, just that most of it is external. unless of course the prev owner took it swimming & mudding & abused the crap out of it like so many of the off-road wheeling guys do.

Surface rust on the outside is surely happening, but these frames also most definitely rust from the inside out, especially near the rear trailing arms and up near the front cab mount. It was the same way on the worst examples of 3rd gen rust and hasn’t changed for the worst examples of 4th gen rust. It’s compounded by poor/lack of rinsing of the frame after salt/brine exposure or other corrosive activities such as mud being trapped in the frame, but it most definitely is happening. Small drain holes don’t help the issue either. For most people it’s not going to ever be an issue, but for anyone in the salt belt it is.

The PO of my vehicle most certainly didn’t rinse after winter well enough. The worst areas of my 4Runner frame were near the rear lower trailing arms. The outside of the frame retained its coating, and the inside of the frame was rusted to hell. That’s an inside out problem.

It’s also not going to be reported at the same prevalence as something like exterior surface rust. What people can’t see, they won’t report, unless a slew of owners start scoping their frames.

 

[firebirdguy]

i agree there can be rust from the inside, im not saying it doesnt happen, just saying it's not nearly as common of an issue as the external. like you said due to salt brine etc the frame rusts, that stuff or normal moisture/debris aren't getting inside & coating the whole inside frame & doing the same damage as the outside, except of course in extreme cases or areas of the frame. just saying what ive seen around a major rust belt area.

i just bought an 08 4runner after looking for over 6 months & seeing all kinds of examples of frame rust, my comments are based on that, there were some that had heavy surface rust, pitting & flaking metal externally but if you shined a light inside most of the open holes in a random area of the frame it was not doing that at all, just normal dirt/debris & light surface rust areas.

it's a good idea to inspect all areas & use whatever steps you feel it needs.

 

[hankd]

It's imperative that I keep my 4Runner for life

haha best sentiment ever.

i get krown rustproofing treatment in the fall, and when i go to the self serve car wash i always hit it underneath. whenever i have it serviced i get them to check the general rust situation so i can be proactive about it. my 05 has quite a bit of rust but it hasn't gotten soft yet or developed scaling or separating. i feel i will get many more years with this upkeep. i'm in nova scotia right on the coast so rust is a big issue.

i guess you're kind of at the mercy of what the previous owner did. i got my 05 in 2018, so i'm just trying to address any issues and stay ahead of the curve on it.

 

[samc5mith]

I sprayed mine with wool wax every fall. Definitely slows rust down

 

[MikeinNH67]

i just came from owning a 97 cherokee for 15+ years as a daily driver here in iowa... the underside of the frame & floors were very rusty with loose scale flaking off & major pitting in areas, especially after they started using the liquid salt brine on the roads in the last 8-10 years. but it was almost all external rust just like the 3rd & 4th gen 4runners i see in these parts... the frame itself was still solid, could not poke a hole anywhere on the frame or suspension components with a screwdriver & hammer, still solid metal, just very ugly with heavy surface rust everywhere including the driveshaft, rear axle, frame & floors. the rockers however were shot & were rusting holes from the inside out.

Maybe it depends on what is used on the road, I don't know. The Cherokee I had was a 99 and I just got rid of it before winter (my 4th Jeep). The frame would look fine externally unless you picked at a small dot of rust then you would end up with a cavernous hole that was all rust flakes on the inside. I welded on frame stiffeners years ago when this first started. Most of the original frame on that truck is gone with new metal welded on. Same thing happened with the rockers and you see it often around here. I envy the areas have have no rust.

 

[TheUltimateBohab]

i just bought an 08 4runner after looking for over 6 months

it's a good idea to inspect all areas & use whatever steps you feel it needs.

exactly what I did ended up getting an 08 after about six to eight months the one I picked up is damn close to rust free why it took me so long to find one I kept looking at ones that were solid rust underneath....

haha best sentiment ever.

i get krown rustproofing treatment in the fall, and when i go to the self serve car wash i always hit it underneath. whenever i have it serviced i get them to check the general rust situation so i can be proactive about it. my 05 has quite a bit of rust but it hasn't gotten soft yet or developed scaling or separating. i feel i will get many more years with this upkeep. i'm in nova scotia right on the coast so rust is a big issue.

i guess you're kind of at the mercy of what the previous owner did. i got my 05 in 2018, so i'm just trying to address any issues and stay ahead of the curve on it.

The previous owner must have put some kind of effort into keeping it clean because it's pretty close to rust free and there's some kind of a coating on the skid plate and the front part of the frame but he skipped the rest of the truck!?

what about that rust converter from Amazon? I figured I could do my whole 4Runner my car and my dad's Tacoma and still have some left.... if that stuff worked out to be pretty cool and then I would just paint over the top of it with something

The interior frame rot is what that one thread I posted is about from the 3rd gen some kit you can spray on the inside keep the interior coated as well...

 

[Direwolf82]

Whatever you do make sure you do the in and outside of the frame. If the coating goes bad on the frame where you can see it then it will go bad where you can't see it as well. Biggest issue I've seen is how different areas collect dirt and mud, a small amount of dirt holds moisture and that causes rot. Clean the undercarriage as best you can and fluid film inside and out of the frame and the entire undercarriage. You will have to do this yearly but it's worth it. The only way to really get in and paint everything is a body off deal otherwise you just can't physically spray POR15 or any kind of paint on every surface under the truck. I wouldn't want to paint the underside and get complacent checking it because hey, I just painted it and it'll be good for years. Have seen it happen where the rot started in areas that didn't get painted, like the top of body mounts and inside shock mount areas. A heavy heavy spray of fluid film tends to get into the nooks and crannies a bit more effectively from what I've seen.
Wrenching on cars in New England most of my life till I got stuck in Virginia.

 

[TheUltimateBohab]

So I've decided I'm going to get a sprayer douse everything underneath with a better quality rust converter than the one I posted and then go over the top of that with a bedliner I figured that should do it well.... when I finally get it finished I'll post a write up with photos how I did it....