Seat belt chime law

[terminator]

So, I was denied by the Dealer to turn off the seat belt chime (in Canada) they claimed it was illegal. So looked into the law,, I wanted the passenger seat belt chime turned off.

In the US, the chime (audible) is required ONLY for the drivers seat and the chime must not continue for more than 8 seconds. Canadian regs below and similar..

So, Toyota can legally turn off the passenger seat belt chime AND they are probably in violation of Federal regulations if the buzzer goes for more than 8 seconds.



S7.3 (a) A seat belt assembly provided at the driver's seating position shall be equipped with a warning system that, at the option of the manufacturer, either—
(1) Activates a continuous or intermittent audible signal for a period of not less than 4 seconds and not more than 8 seconds and that activates a continuous or flashing warning light visible to the driver displaying the identifying symbol for the seat belt telltale shown in Table 2 of FMVSS 101 or, at the option of the manufacturer if permitted by FMVSS 101, displaying the words “Fasten Seat Belts” or “Fasten Belts”, for not less than 60 seconds (beginning when the vehicle ignition switch is moved to the “on” or the “start” position) when condition (b) exists simultaneously with condition (c), or that
(2) Activates, for a period of not less than 4 seconds and not more than 8 seconds (beginning when the vehicle ignition switch is moved to the “on” or the “start” position), a continuous or flashing warning light visible to the driver, displaying the identifying symbol of the seat belt telltale shown in Table 2 of FMVSS 101 or, at the option of the manufacturer if permitted by FMVSS 101, displaying the words “Fasten Seat Belts” or “Fasten Belts”, when condition (b) exists, and a continuous or intermittent audible signal when condition (b) exists simultaneously with condition (c).
(b) The vehicle's ignition switch is moved to the “on” position or to the “start” position.
(c) The driver's lap belt is not in use, as determined, at the option of the manufacturer, either by the belt latch mechanism not being fastened, or by the belt not being extended at least 4 inches from its stowed position.

Standard No. 208; Occupant crash protection. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


For Canada...

Worded differently but similar conclusion..

Drivers seat only and audible not more than 8 seconds

Occupant Restraint Systems in Frontal Impact (Standard 208) - Transport Canada

Warning Systems

(16) A vehicle that has a GVWR of 4 536 kg or less, other than a school bus, shall be equipped with

(a) a tell-tale that emits a continuous or flashing warning light that is visible to the driver seated in the normal driving position, and a warning system that simultaneously emits a continuous or intermittent audible warning signal, for a period of 4 to 8 seconds; or

(b) a tell-tale that emits, for not less than 60 seconds, a continuous or flashing warning light that is visible to the driver seated in the normal driving position, and a warning system that emits a continuous or intermittent audible warning signal for a period of 4 to 8 seconds.

(17) The tell-tale referred to in subsection (16) shall be activated when

(a) the ignition switch of the vehicle is moved to the “on” or “start” position; or

(b) the ignition switch of the vehicle is moved to the “on” or “start” position and

(i) the seat belt latch mechanism of the pelvic restraint located at the driver’s designated seating position is not fastened, or

(ii) the pelvic restraint located at the driver’s designated seating position is extended less than 100 mm from the normal stowed position.

(18) The warning system referred to in subsection (16) shall be activated when the ignition switch of the vehicle is moved to the “on” or “start” position and

(a) the seat belt latch mechanism of the pelvic restraint located at the driver’s designated seating position is not fastened; or

(b) the pelvic restraint located at the driver’s designated seating position is extended less than 100 mm from the normal stowed position.

 

[Eagle]

Those regulations are merely the minimum safety requirements (from the prefact of the regulations: "These Federal safety standards are regulations written in terms of minimum safety performance requirements for motor vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment"). NHTSA refers to this as the "basic" design standards.

No comments on logic of the government writing minimum requirements that suggest there is a maximum...


While it is possible that a company may err on the side of caution, it is generally unlikely that such a device would have passed countless number of designers, corporate attorneys, and inspectors only to be discovered by a layman.

 

[terminator]

Those regulations are merely the minimum safety requirements (from the prefact of the regulations: "These Federal safety standards are regulations written in terms of minimum safety performance requirements for motor vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment"). NHTSA refers to this as the "basic" design standards.

No comments on logic of the government writing minimum requirements that suggest there is a maximum...


While it is possible that a company may err on the side of caution, it is generally unlikely that such a device would have passed countless number of designers, corporate attorneys, and inspectors only to be discovered by a layman.

Who you calling a layman,,,:boxer:

"generally unlikely" is assumptive, opinion and less than factual but if you can find otherwise in the law, go for it..

It is crystal clear, there is no requirement for a passenger seat chime and any chime is NOT to exceed 8 seconds.

"period of not less than 4 seconds and not more than 8 seconds"

AND

"A seat belt assembly provided at the driver's seating position shall be equipped with a warning system that.."

 

[Eagle]

I'm calling you a layman... and judging from your determinations of what is "crystal clear," that may be generous.

The regulations are minimum requirements. Those regulations can be exceeded. In fact, the NHTSA recommends they be exceeded. (I did that for you since you seem to like putting random words in bold.)

The chimer is not illegal. It may not be required (again) but there is a huge difference between "required" and "not illegal."

 

[terminator]

I'm calling you a layman... and judging from your determinations of what is "crystal clear," that may be generous.

The regulations are minimum requirements. Those regulations can be exceeded. In fact, the NHTSA recommends they be exceeded. (I did that for you since you seem to like putting random words in bold.)

The chimer is not illegal. It may not be required (again) but there is a huge difference between "required" and "not illegal."

You are factually incorrect, these are Federal regulations, not recommendations. They may be exceeded but turning off the passenger seat chime does not violate any law. That is my point. So, the dealers who deny based on legality are wrong.

Further, these regulations are crystal clear that the chime NOT exceed 8 seconds, there is no exceeding that period.

Bottom line, there is no law requiring the passenger seat belt chime and, as I stated initially, they are probably in violation of Federal regulations if the buzzer goes for more than 8 seconds.

What part of this do you not understand.

 

[Bill Z]

S7.3 (a) A seat belt assembly provided at the driver's seating position shall be equipped with a warning system that, at the option of the manufacturer, either—........................

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards are guidelines that the manufacturer must meet in order to sell motor vehicles in the US. There is nothing saying that the vehicle owner cannot change or turn off the chime, it only says that manufacturer must equip the vehicle with the seatbelt chime.

For example, there are several impact testing requirements that Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards outline that a vehicle must meet before a car can be sold. The car manufacturer performs crash testing and analysis on the baseline vehicle and certifies that it meets the minimum standards.
Most owners on this forum modify their cars with lifts/bumpers etc.. These modifications are outside the scope of the crash test analysis that the manufacturer performs. Does this mean that all of us are breaking the law?

My point is that the dealerships that refuse to turn off the seatbelt chime are either ignorant of what the standards mean or are trying to cover their a$$ legally.

 

[STLDAVE]

Maybe you should both reread the Section 208 again, particularly S7.3(a)1 and 2, especially the first of part 1, and the last of part 2, that read,

"(1) Activates a continuous or intermittent audible signal for a period of not less than 4 seconds and not more than 8 seconds..."

and

"(2)...and a continuous or intermittent audible signal when condition (b) exists simultaneously with condition (c)."

 

[Eagle]

What part of this do you not understand.

The part where you believe you found a regulation that nobody else has ever understood correctly.

You are wrong. The chime is annoying, yes. We all agree. Doesn't change your incorrect understanding of federal regulations.

As for your confusion about the recommendation aspect, read my comment again. Nothing says these aren't regulations. Yes, they are regulations. Yes other agencies recommend manufacturers Exceed the minimums. That really shouldn't have caused you any confusion... But let me know if you need a diagram too.

I wish you the best of luck with your campaign against this "illegal" buzzer. I do suggest you not become a lawyer, given your tendency to read a law and interpret it without any regard for the actual effect... Perhaps creative writing instead?

 

[Eagle]

My point is that the dealerships that refuse to turn off the seatbelt chime are either ignorant of what the standards mean or are trying to cover their a$$ legally.

Absolutely covering themselves legally... But that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are different standards for vehicles being sold and vehicles you own. There may be done mods you do that are legal for you to do but would not be allowed by manufacturers.

They also have other issues. State law covers manufacturer claims, not federal regulations. As discussed in other threads, Toyota has an interest in exceeding all safety requirements, if only to ensure they do not fall short if any if the various state and federal laws.

Plus, the hassle to us is far less troubling to Toyota than actual liability and the resulting bad publicity.

 

[terminator]

The part where you believe you found a regulation that nobody else has ever understood correctly.

You are wrong. The chime is annoying, yes. We all agree. Doesn't change your incorrect understanding of federal regulations.

As for your confusion about the recommendation aspect, read my comment again. Nothing says these at regulations. Yes, they are regulations. Yes other agencies recommend manufacturers Exceed the minimums. That really shouldn't have caused you any confusion... But let me know if you need a diagram too.

I wish you the best of luck with your campaign against this "illegal" buzzer. I do suggest you not become a lawyer, given your tendency to read a law and interpret it without any regard for the actual effect... Perhaps creative writing instead?

Does the chime warning apply to the passenger seat,,, NOPE,, my goal is to have the passenger seat chime turned off.. I can see the argument that Toyota is the manufacturer so they have a legal obligation to not turn off the drivers seat chime but an owner could do it.

I don't know where you got your law degree but you should ask for your money back...

 

[tHeGeeK]

If I may interject before this goes any further.

I find it a little assuming to argue about another country's laws, regardless of your law background.

That aside, no authority, in Canada at least, is going to pull you over and ask to prove that your seatbelt chime is still working. Businesses state all sorts of information, true or not, to prevent them from doing something they do not want to do, or feel puts them at risk.

Lastly, and this is the more important point, IMHO,

WHO REALLY CARES?

If you can't find a dealership to do it go buy the stuff on ebay. Most of us waste $30 on less useful things on any given day. Go buy it, change it yourself, and feel good for "sticking it to the man".

Toyota MINI VCI TIS Techstream V7.1 single cable OBD2 | eBay

Oh and bubblegum is sticky when wet. :lmao:

 

[Stifler]

you girls put your seat belts on and stop whining, problem solved

 

[Eagle]

As a minimum, the federal regulations require either 1) audible signal for 4-8 seconds and visual signal for 60+ seconds or 2) visual signal for 4-8 seconds and "a continuous or intermittent audible signal" when ignition is turned to on/start and driver's belt is not in use.

As stated before, that is a minimum regulation. Option two (which you quoted but did not make bold), permits the manufacturer to use an audible signal with no maximum duration.

Even if that is somehow read as a maximum of 8 seconds (which is wrong), and even if those regulations are somehow read to be absolute requirements and not just the minimum requirements (also wrong)... the regulations only speak to the use of the seatbelt in the driver's seat. The federal regulations do not impose a minimum or maximum requirement for passenger seat use.

I think you'll agree with that last point -- that federal law does not require Toyota to have a passenger seat buzzer.

However, the absence of a federal law does not mean Toyota can remove the buzzer and be free of any liability. As discussed on other threads, the removal of a warning / safety feature by the manufacturer or dealer can result in liablity for any injuries related to that removal. That is a state law issue. As you may know, there are 50 states here, each with different laws. It is not worth an examination of all 50 states, but case law and codified law in most states support the position that removing or disabling a safety device may result in liability.


So the bottom line:
Those federal regulations are minimum (even if you disagree).
Those federal regulations only address the driver's seat.
Toyota (or a dealer) has no requirement to remove or disable the buzzer. They may choose to do so and not be violating any law.
However, the removal / disabling of the buzzer may result in liability to Toyota on a state level.

 

[westwind77]

I did not know we had this many lawyers on this forum!

Maybe they can outnumber the engineers!

 

[terminator]

So the bottom line:
Those federal regulations are minimum (even if you disagree).
Those federal regulations only address the driver's seat.
Toyota (or a dealer) has no requirement to remove or disable the buzzer. They may choose to do so and not be violating any law.
However, the removal / disabling of the buzzer may result in liability to Toyota on a state level.

I agree except that State law usually defines the safety devices that can't be removed or altered and often uses the term "as required by law". So, you are generalizing a "buzzer" which is not required by law as safety device. Clearly, the OEM can't alter a safety device that is required by law. It is a stretch to suggest that a buzzer, not required by Law can't be turned off. OEMs turn off DRLs, they are not required in the US. Even a driver can turn off DRLs on many vehicles, is that disabling a safety device not required by law.. (Canada is different)

So the bottom line:
Those federal regulations are minimum for the OEM.
Those federal regulations only address the driver's seat.
Toyota (or a dealer) has no requirement to remove or disable the buzzer. They may choose to do so and not be violating any law.
If Toyota refuses to disable the passenger seat buzzer, it is not based on law.

and as suggested, just do it yourself.

 

[Stifler]

Bottom Line: Just wear your seat belt... because that IS a law:boink:

 

[Eagle]

I agree except that State law usually defines the safety devices that can't be removed or altered and often uses the term "as required by law". So, you are generalizing a "buzzer" which is not required by law as safety device. Clearly, the OEM can't alter a safety device that is required by law. It is a stretch to suggest that a buzzer, not required by Law can't be turned off. OEMs turn off DRLs, they are not required in the US. Even a driver can turn off DRLs on many vehicles, is that disabling a safety device not required by law.. (Canada is different)

You've now ventured away from your original post and over into areas that have been discussed at length in other threads.

The dealer has no obligation to turn off the buzzer and could potentially face liability for doing so.

You seem to have a vague understanding of the relationship between federal and state law. That is at least superior to your understanding of state law itself. No, an item does not have to be specifically designated a safety feature and explicitly labeled as such. The chime is designed as a safety feature. Removing the chime is removing a safety feature. There is absolutely no need for it to be required, designated, or labeled.

As for the DRL comparison - further evidence of your misunderstanding the concept of liability. If you disable something yourself you are assuming any potential liability yourself. If a third party disables something, then that third party may be liable for the consequences.

The issue does not turn on whether or not it is illegal for the feature to be disabled... it turns on whether or not the party who disables the feature can be held liable.

Countless others have found ways to have the chime disabled. Some have convinced dealers or techs to do it. Some have purchased spare buckles. Others have purchase the required software to disable it. If you make a marginal effort, you can probably do the same. It's just ludicrous to think that the chime is illegal or that Toyota/dealers are somehow in the wrong for being concerned about potential liability.

 

[Eagle]

Bottom Line: Just wear your seat belt... because that IS a law:boink:

Not in New Hampshire :biggrin2:

 

[Stifler]

Not in New Hampshire :biggrin2:

New Hampshire also went to Obama so what bearing does NH have on anything logical? lol I keed I keed..... kinda

 

[terminator]

You've now ventured away from your original post and over into areas that have been discussed at length in other threads.

The dealer has no obligation to turn off the buzzer and could potentially face liability for doing so.

You seem to have a vague understanding of the relationship between federal and state law. That is at least superior to your understanding of state law itself. No, an item does not have to be specifically designated a safety feature and explicitly labeled as such. The chime is designed as a safety feature. Removing the chime is removing a safety feature. There is absolutely no need for it to be required, designated, or labeled.

As for the DRL comparison - further evidence of your misunderstanding the concept of liability. If you disable something yourself you are assuming any potential liability yourself. If a third party disables something, then that third party may be liable for the consequences.

The issue does not turn on whether or not it is illegal for the feature to be disabled... it turns on whether or not the party who disables the feature can be held liable.

Countless others have found ways to have the chime disabled. Some have convinced dealers or techs to do it. Some have purchased spare buckles. Others have purchase the required software to disable it. If you make a marginal effort, you can probably do the same. It's just ludicrous to think that the chime is illegal or that Toyota/dealers are somehow in the wrong for being concerned about potential liability.

I am not inconsistent, the point was that the dealer claimed that it is illegal to turn off the passenger chime.. and I never suggested that it is their obligation to do so.

Dealers turn off the DRLs all the time, in fact I had my car in for service and dealer left the DRL switch set to off, under your argument if I had asked the dealer to turn my light switch stalk to "DRL off" that would be against State law... as they have altered a non legally required safety device..

There is no material difference between the DRL and the passenger chime.

Your argument is only valid for legally required safety devices.

The issue turns on the legal requirement of the device AND the party involved.

Should Toyota turn off the chime in a no seat belt jurisdiction if requested??

AND of course people can deal with the chime on their own, that is obvious.