Second admendment

It is too bad we seem to have so many who want to re-write our Constitution and even our history. Like the so called separation of church and state.


I don't know if the constitution needs rewriting, but boy it sure might need revisiting. (And NOT by just the elected officials. They've done a stellar job so far so maybe they should leave that to a different group of people...)

I mean it's been 228 years (1789) since the Constitution was accepted. Look what's happened since then:

Steamboat invention
Light bulb!!!
Automobile
Airplane
Trans. Cont railroad
That whole pesky SLAVERY debacle
2 world wars
The telephone
The television
Indoor plumbing
Social media
Medical practices that didn't include bleeding a patient out or instant amputation for a paper cut infection
Antibiotics

The list goes on. What I'm saying is the Constitution worked great back then. But now, do you think the govt really looks to it? NO! They just make new laws anyway they please.

It sets up the generalized system, but the corruptedness is taking over, as it always does in any well established democracy between 200-250 years...

That's where the power needs to come back. And being someone who doesn't even own a gun, I think it's absurd to remove that RIGHT. F off govt. that's like limiting the number of cars we can own or something.
 
Significantly more shocking to me is the removal of the first amendment (namely freedom of speech) on a daily basis. You can't really speak freely if there are rules to political correctness. I make it a point to aim for offensive language. I feel not using words (specifically racial ones) actually gives the words power. Remember the "C" word? 2 generations ago it was almost domestic abuse to use.. Now because it's used somewhat more regularly it has lost its power. It's really hard for the Offendees to see that with them removed, Offenders would cease to exist immediately. If you don't get bothered by simple words, then the words don't have power...

Man I just attacked politics, racism, sexism, society... What am I forgetting?

Oh right my bad: churches are tax free money machines.

Did I hit my target of offenses for a single post?

I agree with you 100%. Problem is, the first amendment - or any other amendment, for that matter - doesn't involve a material possession that so many people obsess about, fawn over, collect and buy/sell like crazy, and which has been over-glorified by Hollywood and our society, in general.

If they did, we'd have zillion-page threads where people discuss how great it is to be able to practice any religion, or how much we enjoy the right to not have people simply come and arrest us/take our stuff for no reason at all.

Free speech is just as important (if not more, IMO), but not as glamorous.
 
I agree with you 100%. Problem is, the first amendment - or any other amendment, for that matter - doesn't involve a material possession that so many people obsess about, fawn over, collect and buy/sell like crazy, and which has been over-glorified by Hollywood and our society, in general.



If they did, we'd have zillion-page threads where people discuss how great it is to be able to practice any religion, or how much we enjoy the right to not have people simply come and arrest us/take our stuff for no reason at all.



Free speech is just as important (if not more, IMO), but not as glamorous.


Damn that's a good point about the physical possession aspect. I didn't even think of that. And of course, it being a RIGHT not a privilege means that in reality it should be totally ok to have as many as you want.

It's sort of like drugs. (I of course I don't mean weed, I mean the REAL drugs like heroin, meth, blow and stuff like that). They are illegal as all get out. But guess what? People still buy and sell it! And they aren't protected since they have to do back alley arrangements. So if someone wants a gun bad enough (to do whatever terrible thing assumed they want to do) they will find a way to get it.

I've always said, taking the guns away from the good guys does nothing to remove them from the bad guys. If anything, it makes the bad guys more powerful since they know less good guys have guns.
 
I agree with you 100%. Problem is, the first amendment - or any other amendment, for that matter - doesn't involve a material possession that so many people obsess about, fawn over, collect and buy/sell like crazy, and which has been over-glorified by Hollywood and our society, in general.

If they did, we'd have zillion-page threads where people discuss how great it is to be able to practice any religion, or how much we enjoy the right to not have people simply come and arrest us/take our stuff for no reason at all.

Free speech is just as important (if not more, IMO), but not as glamorous.

I think the "speech" industry is much much larger and broader the the gun industry
 
And for the WIN. :trophy:


This is the problem because "what is politics" isn't clear.

Based my observations of [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I'm starting to think on T4R it means don't mention Democrats or Republicans or libtards or any other slang against political orientation, especially one being better than the other. That talk certainly isn't helpful.

BUT given that the real reason I believe politics was banned is that so many members cry to the mods about their delicate little feelings being hurt that it floods the mods inbox and is very annoying I assume.

The Vegas thread was an attempt to ease up this policy, trial run maybe? I'm sure plenty crying to mods still ensued. How about everyone man up and stop making baseless complaints to the mods...... the internet is not a "safe space" despite whatever your Facebook and college told you. Ironically I went to super liberal UCSC and never met as many close minded folks as I've seen on social media the last 24 months.

I'd love to be able to chat politics and I can certainly do it without slanting whole groups of political parties or beliefs. But at the end of the day do I really need to know which members think affirmative action is just plain stupid and divisive or which members love guns or which members think some immigration isn't always great, or which members supported el presidento but now regret it? That is an open question. I just don't know.

If I could err though it would be on the side of free speech.

Frankly off topic conversations would be a lot more tolerable if far more members were interested in finding middle ground with those they perceive to disagree with. Instead of shutting down into little ideological bubbles try to be more like Daryl Davis on Netflix and reach out to those you oppose.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V7fh5J_mo5E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:girl:
 
I don't know if the constitution needs rewriting, but boy it sure might need revisiting. (And NOT by just the elected officials. They've done a stellar job so far so maybe they should leave that to a different group of people...)

I mean it's been 228 years (1789) since the Constitution was accepted. Look what's happened since then:

Steamboat invention
Light bulb!!!
Automobile
Airplane
Trans. Cont railroad
That whole pesky SLAVERY debacle
2 world wars
The telephone
The television
Indoor plumbing
Social media
Medical practices that didn't include bleeding a patient out or instant amputation for a paper cut infection
Antibiotics

The list goes on. What I'm saying is the Constitution worked great back then. But now, do you think the govt really looks to it? NO! They just make new laws anyway they please.

It sets up the generalized system, but the corruptedness is taking over, as it always does in any well established democracy between 200-250 years...

That's where the power needs to come back. And being someone who doesn't even own a gun, I think it's absurd to remove that RIGHT. F off govt. that's like limiting the number of cars we can own or something.
people forget that the constitution is in place to put limits on the government, not the citizens.
also, it doesn't provide ANY of our rights, it merely protects them, FROM the government.
 
This is the problem because "what is politics" isn't clear.

BUT given that the real reason I believe politics was banned is that so many members cry to the mods about their delicate little feelings being hurt that it floods the mods inbox and is very annoying I assume.

:girl:

I think that's fairly accurate.

Other than the Camry and Corolla owners on another Toyota site I'm a Moderator on, this place has the biggest bunch of whiners.



And now there will be more complaints coming.


:rolleyes:
 
I think that's fairly accurate.

Other than the Camry and Corolla owners on another Toyota site I'm a Moderator on, this place has the biggest bunch of whiners.



And now there will be more complaints coming.


:rolleyes:

It's sad people can't just discuss things as adults without name calling and fighting/arguing breaking out and then reporting and moderators having to get involved.

People need to learn to log out and walk away from the computer if they are feeling actual anger or don't like something. Take a break from it all.

Too many whiners in life. People need to nut up and get over the petty shit.
 
I don't know if the constitution needs rewriting, but boy it sure might need revisiting. (And NOT by just the elected officials. They've done a stellar job so far so maybe they should leave that to a different group of people...)

I mean it's been 228 years (1789) since the Constitution was accepted. Look what's happened since then:

Steamboat invention
Light bulb!!!
Automobile
Airplane
Trans. Cont railroad
That whole pesky SLAVERY debacle
2 world wars
The telephone
The television
Indoor plumbing
Social media
Medical practices that didn't include bleeding a patient out or instant amputation for a paper cut infection
Antibiotics

The list goes on. What I'm saying is the Constitution worked great back then. But now, do you think the govt really looks to it? NO! They just make new laws anyway they please.

It sets up the generalized system, but the corruptedness is taking over, as it always does in any well established democracy between 200-250 years...

That's where the power needs to come back. And being someone who doesn't even own a gun, I think it's absurd to remove that RIGHT. F off govt. that's like limiting the number of cars we can own or something.

Um, the Constitution has been Amended 27 times. There is a process for Amending the Constitution.

As far as your talk of "revisiting" it- what exactly are you referring to?

It is the charter document of our Constitutional Republic. Do you want to re-charter the nation?

That's a VERY bad idea. What our "leaders" would come up with today would scare the shit out of me.

It really doesn't matter what has changed since the Founding of our country- your list for instance, does not change the intent of the Constitution nor the nature or operation of our Constitutional Republic.

I guess I'm confused as to what you are positing here...

We should absolutely hold our Government to the limits in the Constitution. That hasn't happened for a long time and we are in great need of reigning in the federal government.

It worked great back then because it was adhered to. Just need to make that happen again. And it's not going to happen by further eviscerating it with Gun control, speech control and eroding the limits on the Fed.gov. Make no mistake anyone who is in favor of limiting or infringing on ANY of the Bill of Rights for any reason is an enemy of Liberty.

The fed.gov has become a hydra-headed monster, it has become what the founders of this Nation fought so hard for it not to be.

But half the nation is asleep, wants "free shit", believes in teh illusion that is safety and wants the State to be it's caretaker- not realizing that the State does not provide safety nor take care of anyone- it only becomes their master.
 
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It really doesn't matter what has changed since the Founding of our country- your list for instance, does not change the intent of the Constitution nor the nature....

I guess I'm confused as to what you are positing here...


What I mean is that it's dated. Perhaps the language should be modernized a bit. The list is to give examples of all the stuff that has happened. Meaning that a lot has changed since it was created and probably it's documentation isn't as accurate for today's world as it can be. A great example would be to not allow back door politics or lobbyists. I don't think that was thought of back then. They were more concerned with simply getting a system in place. And since lobbyist (again, as one example) are feeding the bank accounts of those that make the laws now, they will never want to change that or how on earth could they afford all their yachts and vacation homes?

Of course, I do not trust modern government to write something today that would be absurd.

The fed.gov has become a hydra-headed monster, it has become what the founders of this Nation fought so hard for...
But half the nation is asleep, wants "free shit", believes in teh illusion that is safety and wants the State to be it's caretaker- not realizing that the State does not provide safety nor take care of anyone- it only becomes their master.


This is a great way to put it. A great observation. I think the government keeps us just happy enough to not mutiny... And if guns get yanked, there is no more limit.

I've often thought of ways to get the attention the government and remind them who is really in charge. One great way would be a nationwide walk out. No one works. Not a single person in target, not a truck driver, not a plumber, not a secretary, not an athlete. Everyone stays home. One day of that would crash the Capalist system and put some major issues in place.

Again, people are too lazy to do this. They can't risk getting fired. That's why EVERYONE needs to participate in something like that. As one imaginary example of course
 
Been shooting most of my life

And most of the people I see out shooting in the hills look like these guys. Oh, and add beer to the equation:
 

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And most of the people I see out shooting in the hills look like these guys. Oh, and add beer to the equation:

Yay, prejudice and stereotypes are fun!

There are douche bags in all walks of life. Feel free to judge as you wish, But dressing up and "looking" a certain way shouldn't be grounds for taking away people's rights.

If they break the law with their firearms or do something dumb and hurt themselves the laws on the books or perhaps natural selection will take care of it.

Most Gun owners are just regular men and woman who understand the need to protect themselves and their families and know that when you need the police they are usually 10-15 minutes away if you're lucky. They understand that the individual is responsible for their own safety and to rely on someone else is naive and dangerous.

They are safe, responsible and you likely wouldn't know they carry a gun unless you knew them and they shared the info with you.

Most Gun owners are "grey".

The yokels in your meme and those that the media focus on exist, but are in the minority and are no less worthy of the rights we all are entitled to regardless of your opinion.
 
Yay, prejudice and stereotypes are fun!

There are douche bags in all walks of life. Feel free to judge as you wish, But dressing up and "looking" a certain way shouldn't be grounds for taking away people's rights.

If they break the law with their firearms or do something dumb and hurt themselves the laws on the books or perhaps natural selection will take care of it.

Most Gun owners are just regular men and woman who understand the need to protect themselves and their families and know that when you need the police they are usually 10-15 minutes away if you're lucky. They understand that the individual is responsible for their own safety and to rely on someone else is naive and dangerous.

They are safe, responsible and you likely wouldn't know they carry a gun unless you knew them and they shared the info with you.

Most Gun owners are "grey".

The yokels in your meme and those that the media focus on exist, but are in the minority and are no less worthy of the rights we all are entitled to regardless of your opinion.

No, this isn't just "dress up." This entire look typifies their attitudes. As I said, I've been shooting my entire life. I've lived in several different states, with varying demographics. I don't shoot at ranges. I'm sure people are very well behaved there. But up in the hills, where people feel free to let loose and be themselves? Yes, the overwhelming majority look just like this. I am not stereotyping; this has been my experience over 35 years of gun ownership.

Except they forgot the token Honey Boo-Boo with a pink glock.

And then there's my cousins/nephews in Texas, each owning over 50 guns. WTF? If a person owned over 50 cats we would call them a crazy hoarder.

Finally, my meme was an attempt to discuss that key phrase, "well regulated." As in requiring membership or intent to join a state militia. As in being kept track of, membership, weapons, etc.
 
Tools of the gun industry

And how many people do you know who have had their guns taken away? You do realize that everytime the NRA says something like, "Obama is going to take away all your guns and lock you in FEMA death camps at the local Walmart," gun sales spike?

What a great marketing tactic, and so many people buy into it. Because of fear. Quit being afraid. Start acting like an American.

I know a guy who committed himself for electroshock therapy, I kid you not. He owns over a dozen weapons, because nobody checks the self-certifying gun check forms. That is supposed to be illegal.
 
No, this isn't just "dress up." This entire look typifies their attitudes. As I said, I've been shooting my entire life. I've lived in several different states, with varying demographics. I don't shoot at ranges. I'm sure people are very well behaved there. But up in the hills, where people feel free to let loose and be themselves? Yes, the overwhelming majority look just like this. I am not stereotyping; this has been my experience over 35 years of gun ownership.

Except they forgot the token Honey Boo-Boo with a pink glock.

And then there's my cousins/nephews in Texas, each owning over 50 guns. WTF? If a person owned over 50 cats we would call them a crazy hoarder.

Finally, my meme was an attempt to discuss that key phrase, "well regulated." As in requiring membership or intent to join a state militia. As in being kept track of, membership, weapons, etc.

No. Your are completely wrong about the militia being a membership, keeping track of weapons, etc.

At the time the Constitution was drafted the "militia" was anyone who could physically bear arms. Every able man woman and child capable of beating arms was the militia.

To try and ascribe today's meaning of militia and ignore the intent of the 2nd amendment is wrong.

"Well regulated" meant that the militia; every able bodied person bearing arms; was to keep their arms in good working order and train with them.

Again, people NEED to read more and research more about the constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the federalist and anti federalist papers and George Washingtons farewell address.

Read the letters the founders wrote.

It's all in there. The intent is obvious and stated in a literal way again and again.

Trying to change the meaning or intent of a historical document to suit your opinions based on reinterpreting words and phrases instead of accepting the literal meaning/intent of the words and phrases when they were written is ridiculous.
 
Nevermind, you win

...
Trying to change the meaning or intent of a historical document to suit your opinions based on reinterpreting words and phrases instead of accepting the literal meaning/intent of the words and phrases when they were written is ridiculous.

Nevermind. If you are going to spin basic terms like "well regulated," then I'm wasting my time discussing this with you. Please show me where "well regulated" is defined as keeping your powder dry.

If you do, I'll show you the U.S. code which defines it, but I'm sick of doing the research for people who won't change their mind anyway.
 
No, this isn't just "dress up." This entire look typifies their attitudes. As I said, I've been shooting my entire life. I've lived in several different states, with varying demographics. I don't shoot at ranges. I'm sure people are very well behaved there. But up in the hills, where people feel free to let loose and be themselves? Yes, the overwhelming majority look just like this. I am not stereotyping; this has been my experience over 35 years of gun ownership.

Except they forgot the token Honey Boo-Boo with a pink glock.

And then there's my cousins/nephews in Texas, each owning over 50 guns. WTF? If a person owned over 50 cats we would call them a crazy hoarder.

Finally, my meme was an attempt to discuss that key phrase, "well regulated." As in requiring membership or intent to join a state militia. As in being kept track of, membership, weapons, etc.
why is 50 guns a problem?

how about 50 pairs of shoes?
or 50 books?
or 50 of anything else.

hell, they could own 5000, and it still shouldn't be an issue.
 
Nevermind. If you are going to spin basic terms like "well regulated," then I'm wasting my time discussing this with you. Please show me where "well regulated" is defined as keeping your powder dry.

If you do, I'll show you the U.S. code which defines it, but I'm sick of doing the research for people who won't change their mind anyway.

"Well regulated".

What did these two words mean at the time of ratification of the constitution?
Were they commonly used to refer to a governmental bureaucracy as we know it today, with countless rules and regulations and inspectors, or something quite different?

lets examine how the term "regulate" was used elsewhere in the Constitution. In every other instance where the term "regulate" is used, or regulations are referred to, the Constitution specifies who is to do the regulating and what is being "regulated." However, in the Second Amendment, the Framers chose only to use the term "well regulated" to describe a militia and chose not to define who or what would regulate it.

It is also important to note that the Framers' chose to use the indefinite article "a" to refer to the militia, rather than the definite article "the." This choice suggests that the Framers were not referring to any particular well regulated militia but, instead, only to the concept that well regulated militias, made up of citizens bearing arms, were necessary to secure a free State. Thus, the Framers chose not to explicitly define who, or what, would regulate the militias, nor what such regulation would consist of, nor how the regulation was to be accomplished.

This comparison of the Framers' use of the term "well regulated" in the Second Amendment, and the words "regulate" and "regulation" elsewhere in the Constitution, clarifies the meaning of that term in reference to its object, namely, the Militia. There is no doubt the Framers understood that the term "militia" had multiple meanings. First, the Framers understood all of the people to be part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia members, "the people," had the right to keep and bear arms. They could, individually, or in concert, "well regulate" themselves; that is, they could train to shoot accurately and to learn the basics of military tactics.

This interpretation is in keeping with English usage of the time, which included within the meaning of the verb "regulate" the concept of self- regulation or self-control (as it does still to this day). The concept that the people retained the right to self-regulate their local militia groups (or regulate themselves as individual militia members) is entirely consistent with the Framers' use of the indefinite article "a" in the phrase "A well regulated Militia."

This concept of the people's self-regulation, that is, non-governmental regulation, is also in keeping with the limited grant of power to Congress "for calling forth" the militia for only certain, limited purposes, to "provide for" the militia only certain limited control and equipment, and the limited grant of power to the President regarding the militia, who only serves as Commander in Chief of that portion of the militia called into the actual service of the nation. The "well regula[tion]" of the militia set forth in the Second Amendment was apart from that control over the militia exercised by Congress and the President, which extended only to that part of the militia called into actual service of the Union. Thus, "well regula[tion]" referred to something else. Since the fundamental purpose of the militia was to serve as a check upon a standing army, it would seem the words "well regulated" referred to the necessity that the armed citizens making up the militia(s) have the level of equipment and training necessary to be an effective and formidable check upon the national government's standing army.

This view is confirmed by Alexander Hamilton's observation, in The Federalist, No. 29, regarding the people's militias ability to be a match for a standing army: " . . . but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights . . . ."

It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers' writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that "well regulated" militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to "insure domestic Tranquility" and "provide for the common defence."
 
And most of the people I see out shooting in the hills look like these guys. Oh, and add beer to the equation:

With all the arguments for or against something You choose looks. I thought we aren't supposed to judge people by "looks". Isn't that profiling? If you can use profiling when you see others, Why can't the police use profiling? I know a few guys that dress like that and don't even own guns but they are just good old boys and a couple of them have doctorates. I love how people use one set of rules for themselves and another set of rules for others.

P.S. I find your meme insulting as well as your stereotypes.
 
Lulz

With all the arguments for or against something You choose looks. I thought we aren't supposed to judge people by "looks". Isn't that profiling? If you can use profiling when you see others, Why can't the police use profiling? I know a few guys that dress like that and don't even own guns but they are just good old boys and a couple of them have doctorates. I love how people use one set of rules for themselves and another set of rules for others.

P.S. I find your meme insulting as well as your stereotypes.

LOL, and the term, "snowflake," was invented to describe liberals....

I'm not ONLY choosing looks. I'm choosing looks in order to get your attention, and yes, I do find that to be the appearance of many I shoot with. Please be honest about some of the gun owners you may know. Who should not have guns, much less children.

I find your elevation of gun rights over everything else to be insulting. Those kids at Sandy Hook had a right to life which overrides your right to guns. I ****ing dare you to look at the pictures of the victims and reply to this post in a way that makes sense.

But as I was working on my truck yesterday, I put into words what really bothers me. And remember, I own over a half dozen guns myself, been shooting around 35 years. And I used to fantasize about killing people. Which is what you're doing.

When you're fantasizing about killing some intruder who breaks into your home, you're fantasizing about killing someone. This probably is not murder if it is justified. But you're still fantasizing about killing someone.

Same thing with this whole, "I need more guns to prevent government tyranny." You are fantasizing about armed revolution against your own government. You want it to happen. How about putting as much energy into trying to change whats wrong using the rule of law instead of threatening the gun barrel?

And that pretty much sums up the attitude of gun "enthusiasts." You get hard fantasizing about killing people, overcompensating for other inadequacies and frustrations in your life.

And to Shooter: ask the police what they think when they pull over a car with over 50 weapons in it.
 
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