Skinny tires. How skinny is too skinny and good tire choice?

[Angry_shoe]

Intro / My setup

I am looking at tires/wheels for my 2008 4Runner. I have a 3" Icon Stage 2 lift. I am trying to get the best performance for a focus on overlanding. Looking at everything, I am leaning towards going a little taller, a little skinnier and a little further out. I don't daily this, so I am ok sacrificing a bit of road performance. So far, all I have is arm chair level research. I am hoping for anyone with firsthand experience or real numbers.


Thoughts

I am not looking for a mall crawler. I am not looking to tackle extreme trails. I am looking for a balance of confidence and capability when off-road, efficiency when on road, and reliability for both. Stock gets me close, but I need to swing it a bit more to off-road capable. I can give up a bit of on-road manners like cornering at high speed, ride comfort and noise. If I have to slow down to suggested speeds for corners, fine. In order to be competitive 4runners and most trucks need great almost car like performance on the highways.

Skinny Tire Pros

• Better tire aspect ratio. The higher ratio, better performance off-road (generally, in most cases, but not all). But higher ratio worse cornering @ highway speed do to flex from additional sidewall. 75% was seen in the past as a good balance for all conditions with a focus on roads. Higher would better for off-road unless you are doing baja racing type of off-road. Baja racing requires good cornering, so less aspect ratio. To make up for this, everything else needs to be beefed up on a truck like that. They still need a ton of maintenance.
• >With a tire aspect ratio, a much better contact patch when aired down. Longer vs wider.
• Less unsprung/wheel weight. This would net me less impact on acceleration, braking and toyota's ABS based LSD system (ATRAC) when going up in overall wheel diameter. Steering should also generally improve. Not to mention less wear and tear on suspension and steering components.
• Less rolling resistance. If I go up in overall wheel diameter I will lose MPG. But thinner wheels means I might gain some or all of it back.
• Air pressure will have a greater impact on surface conditions. This is both a pro and a con. On-road with a higher PSI I should see better MPG. Off-road with low PSI I should see good performance with a long soft contact patch. If I don't air down off road, all bets are off, my performance would be worse than stock. If I don't air back up once I hit pavement, then I would not be able to travel at speed without a bunch of suck all at once.

Skinny Tire Cons

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• Better performance at road speed (and thus safety if you drive like a jack ass). Especially in corners and at highway speed. Most car reviews read by average consumers weight this higher than off-road performance even if off-road focused vehicles. Off-road SUVs don't sell like their crossover counterparts. So manufactures try to make them perform better on the road even if they have to sacrifice off-road performance. It has been a trend for some time now. How long do you think it will take to see a IFS Jeep Wrangler.
• Looks! Big wide tires look better, more manly, and gives you a feeling more girth and a bit of added length. I suspect this is why most mall crawlers go big.
• Deep+soft mud/sand/snow. Skinny tires won't float. Especial if you don't airdown. If you get in deeper than your axel, you better have a good recovery plan.
• Adjusting PSI to match surface conditions is a requirement. An air compressor and deflater are now standard equipment. Adjusting air every time the surface or vehicle speed changes suck, but you do what you have to do.

Lateral stability vs Safety

This a huge issue if the not the biggest issue I see. A skinny tire will loose grip in corners before a wider one with all things equal. But they are not equal. To maintain the same weigh carrying capacity on a skinny tire, you would need to up the air pressure. This would make a skinny tire more ridged. Being more ridged would mean even less grip in corners. A bit of this could be good. With an higher center of gravity due to a lift and all the crap we put on the roof, then we are more likely to tip if a corner is taken too fast. Less grip could mean you would skid out rather than flip. Ether way I would need to go slowly through curves.

My Plan

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• New rims. Toyota has stock rims for latest 4runners are 7Jx17 ET15 and a they are better fit for the skinny tires. The offset is 15mm less and would bring the scrub radius back close to stock. I don't think they look bad and they can be found used cheap!
  
• Ether 235/80 R17 or 245/75 R17. Keep in mind most of the changes people do in the other direction are much more significant and they don't fall off the road. 235 is only 3cm from stock or a little over 1 inch.
  
  
  
• Bump up to a LT 'E' rated tire. The thinker sidewall will help with dealing with the vehicle weight on a thinner tire.
  
• I am looking for a hybrid type tire with an aggressive side wall and a dense (dense compared to most mut terran) center pattern. The Kanati Trail Hog tire might fit the bill,but it is still pretty unproven

Question

1. How skinny is too skinny? It is all a balance right? Too thin, I would need to up the pressure on and off road to be able to deal with the weight of the vehicle. Too skinny and the off-road presure won't be able to support the weight of the vehicle. The thicker sidewall will help but I am not sure how much.

2. Tires! Any suggestions are welcome. Not all tires are available in the size I want. I would love a set of Ridge Grappler but I can't get them in my size.

**Extra Reading**

Tire Selection for Expedition Travel: The impact of tire width on traction

TYRES. FAT OR SKINNY?

Taller or Wider?

 

[CXS]

That’s one big can of worms you’re opening!

I’m going to predict you’ll get plenty of people favoring what they chose and not a lot of open-ended discussion.

But with that being said I’ll probably read along anyway!

 

[Inv4drZm]

Forget the research, the pros to skinny vs wide (if they are even noticeable) balance the cons in every choice. It's not like you are choosing between 33's and 35's, tire width between 235's and 265's isn't noticeable. Price should be more of a concern.

Choose which tire you want based on tread wear/ tread performance, then choose the height you want based on how much you want to trim or how much rock clearance you need. Choose the width based on looks/weight.


Points of discussion:

Does contact patch area actually change with a given PSI between two different sizes? Or is it just the orientation of the patch?

Skinnier tires have a longer contact patch with means more sidewall deflection which means higher rolling resistance. I have seen an online interview where a lab found wider bike tires have less rolling resistance possibly due to this point.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

I ran 235/85r16 BFG KO2s on a tacoma and felt they were too skinny, especially when turning on icy roads. They were unstoppable in a straight line, but would understear much worse than the 265/75r16 tires on the truck. I also ran 255 width tires on that tacoma and my current 4Runner and feel this is as narrow as I'll ever go. The 255 width gives the benefit of skinny tires without out all of the drawbacks. I've run 255 in BFG KM2, Maxxis Bighorn, and now Cooper ST Maxx.

Lots of good options in the 255/75r17 size, wish I could say the same for 255/80r17!

Could always run the BFG KO2 in 34x10.5r17 which are 33.5" in diameter. That is my dream tire but they are expensive and won't fit in the stock spare location

 

[Natey]

Tall and skinny = mud
Wide and soft = sand.

Where are you going? That's really the most important part of this equation. No need to overthink it.

 

[Angry_shoe]

I ran 235/85r16 BFG KO2s on a tacoma and felt they were too skinny, especially when turning on icy roads. They were unstoppable in a straight line, but would understear much worse than the 265/75r16 tires on the truck. I also ran 255 width tires on that tacoma and my current 4Runner and feel this is as narrow as I'll ever go. The 255 width gives the benefit of skinny tires without out all of the drawbacks. I've run 255 in BFG KM2, Maxxis Bighorn, and now Cooper ST Maxx.

How heavy was your Tacoma? Was there weight in the bed? It is not a true apples to apples comparison, but closer than I have heard thus far.

Forget the research, the pros to skinny vs wide (if they are even noticeable) balance the cons in every choice. It's not like you are choosing between 33's and 35's, tire width between 235's and 265's isn't noticeable. Price should be more of a concern.

Price is being taken into consideration. 235 or 245 are a common dually size. Keeps the price down.

Does contact patch area actually change with a given PSI between two different sizes? Or is it just the orientation of the patch?

AFAIK both but not by much. But then again I am trying not to change too far from stock.

Skinnier tires have a longer contact patch with means more sidewall deflection which means higher rolling resistance. I have seen an online interview where a lab found wider bike tires have less rolling resistance possibly due to this point.

Bike tire are more tubular in shape I am not sure it applies here. My understanding with sidewall deflection is a product of may variables. Weight per tire size, inflation pressure and sidewall length being big for us. Do you have a link? it sound like good info.

Tall and skinny = mud
Wide and soft = sand.

Not always true. There are a lot of variables but I linked some good articles.

Where are you going? That's really the most important part of this equation. No need to overthink it.

I am in Oregon. I am a few hours away from nearly any terrain type you can think of.

Overthinking is part of the fun. + I wouldn't want to under think it.

 

[Billynath1988]

get the skinny tire and put spider tracks 1.25 wheel spacers on correctly. You get all the benefits of the skinny tire and you get back the stability feeling of the wider tires. 255/80/17 is an ideal size for the thinner tire which will still provide plenty of traction in sand and snow. I personally dont think going thinner then a 255 is smart as you will start to lose the benefits of the thinner tire by having too little tire

 

[e60ral]

Tall and skinny = mud
Wide and soft = sand.

Where are you going? That's really the most important part of this equation. No need to overthink it.

the 255/80/17's are actually okay in sand too because you get the benefit of a large footprint on sand when aired down, but the narrower width actually reduces your rolling resistance and also allows them to track better. unless you are getting large flotation tires the extra width of a 285 or something isn't giving you enough advantage to make up for the added rolling resistance or make a significant difference.

remember that most of your added footprint when airing down comes from the contact patch getting longer, only a little bit comes from it being wider, so a wider tire only adds a little bit of the larger contact patch.

 

[Angry_shoe]

the 255/80/17's are actually okay in sand too because you get the benefit of a large footprint on sand when aired down, but the narrower width actually reduces your rolling resistance and also allows them to track better. unless you are getting large flotation tires the extra width of a 285 or something isn't giving you enough advantage to make up for the added rolling resistance or make a significant difference.

remember that most of your added footprint when airing down comes from the contact patch getting longer, only a little bit comes from it being wider, so a wider tire only adds a little bit of the larger contact patch.

When I air down, i will be off-road. I won't need lateral grip nearly as much as forward :lookout:

 

[Bumbo]

After owning both... ill say that I prefer a conservatively skinny tire than a fat tire.

Ill generally stick to the 255-265 sizes now, but currently have a 255 on the truck and I like it a lot because it feels balanced and sized appropriately.

That said, unless you are pushing it to the extremes in size 235 vs 285, you won't see much difference.

People call a 255 skinny but visually against a 265 or 275, not really THAT much difference.

 

[Angry_shoe]

get the skinny tire and put spider tracks 1.25 wheel spacers on correctly. You get all the benefits of the skinny tire and you get back the stability feeling of the wider tires. 255/80/17 is an ideal size for the thinner tire which will still provide plenty of traction in sand and snow. I personally dont think going thinner then a 255 is smart as you will start to lose the benefits of the thinner tire by having too little tire

I am looking at picking up a set of the 5th Gen wheels. The offset is 15mm less which should put the scrub radius back close to stock w/ the taller tires.

I am thinking 235 might be a bit too small. I am leaning towards 245.

 

[Mvrocky]

I'm running 255/75R17 Goodyear tire Duratrac. I'm not rock crawler. I run on fire,logging roads. Also

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[Mvrocky]

Hit the send button too quick and Highway use

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[Angry_shoe]

I'm running 255/75R17 Goodyear tire Duratrac. I'm not rock crawler. I run on fire,logging roads. Also

I am looking at Duratrac or similar tire. Do you air down? I am hoping that they get significantly more aggressive when aired down, but when aired up they would ride mostly on the center pattern and be better on road.

 

[Mvrocky]

I haven't had to yet. I was a BF Goodrich guy, but I one day I cut the side wall on a log( the tire was 3 months old), my local tire store called BF Goodrich and told them tuff sh#t. I cut a Duratrac a couple of months ago and Goodyear gave my tire shop credit to a new one.

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[skc1953]

Sooooo Confused!

I have an '06 Sports Ed. 4WD. I bought used 2 yrs. ago with Mastercraft Wildcat 265/65R17 tires. I need to replace before winter. I have hated vehicle handling with these tires on the stud grooved roads in the Pacific NW as there was constant veering when tires hit ruts, even worse when towing trailer. I drive occasional long distances, usually towing a small travel trailer. Off road is mainly over minimally rough terrain to get to dry camping spots. I need some use on snow & ice and do have front wheel tire chains if really bad.

Price is important, not critical. I've been to Les Schwab and their recommendation is 265/65R17 112T Back Country (about $1,110 total)
I belong to Costco and there are 2 Bridgestone and 2 Michelins they carry for this vehicle. (price from approx. $764 - $916)

I don't have the knowledge of width or any of the other variables and would rather trust someone OTHER than who is selling me the tires. Can anyone please offer me some advice? I'm new in the area and just don't have any "guy friends" to offer advice!

 

[Angry_shoe]

Stay stock unless you already made changes. I am retooling my 4Runner for my needs. Stock the 4 Runner is very well rounded.

Did you add spacers or do anything else to widen the 4Runner?

Did you air down at all? The tires are not too aggressive but would do better if you let a bit of air out. Did you also upgrade to a LT tire?

BFGoodrich-All-Terrain T/A KO2 are really well regarded but cost a bit and might be overkill. You probably don't even need an AT tire if you are not spending a lot of time off road.

 

[Rodtheviking]

I have an '06 Sports Ed. 4WD. I bought used 2 yrs. ago with Mastercraft Wildcat 265/65R17 tires. I need to replace before winter. I have hated vehicle handling with these tires on the stud grooved roads in the Pacific NW as there was constant veering when tires hit ruts, even worse when towing trailer. I drive occasional long distances, usually towing a small travel trailer. Off road is mainly over minimally rough terrain to get to dry camping spots. I need some use on snow & ice and do have front wheel tire chains if really bad.

Price is important, not critical. I've been to Les Schwab and their recommendation is 265/65R17 112T Back Country (about $1,110 total)
I belong to Costco and there are 2 Bridgestone and 2 Michelins they carry for this vehicle. (price from approx. $764 - $916)

I don't have the knowledge of width or any of the other variables and would rather trust someone OTHER than who is selling me the tires. Can anyone please offer me some advice? I'm new in the area and just don't have any "guy friends" to offer advice!

I'm in Vancouver, PM me if you like. I just went through the whole tire shopping process, maybe I can help.