Snowflake Symbol
- Thread starter HB 4X4
- Start date
rook
New member
cut the poop and lets get back on topic...
On one side we have Josh with real world experience, claiming the BFG's perform poorly in snow when worn. Thai has compiled consumer data to support the legitimacy of the severe weather rating. Poor Ron, steadfastly dedicated to his Nitto's gives an honest opinion and takes a beating for being human!
Josh, I asked this question a while back, do you know if those BFG's were severe weather rated? Not all sizes of KO's are. I also feel there is some truth to what you are sayng, rated or not, KO's do not have an ideal tread pattern and are insufficiently siped for consistent winter duty.
So far I am aware of the following severe weather rated AT tires. Are there others?
GY Triple tread
GY Wrangler Silent Armor
BFG TA AT KO
Pro Comp All Terrain
On one side we have Josh with real world experience, claiming the BFG's perform poorly in snow when worn. Thai has compiled consumer data to support the legitimacy of the severe weather rating. Poor Ron, steadfastly dedicated to his Nitto's gives an honest opinion and takes a beating for being human!
Josh, I asked this question a while back, do you know if those BFG's were severe weather rated? Not all sizes of KO's are. I also feel there is some truth to what you are sayng, rated or not, KO's do not have an ideal tread pattern and are insufficiently siped for consistent winter duty.
So far I am aware of the following severe weather rated AT tires. Are there others?
GY Triple tread
GY Wrangler Silent Armor
BFG TA AT KO
Pro Comp All Terrain
HB 4X4
New member
rook said:
I guess I'll poke my head back in for a bit since it's the first sign of rational discussion in quite some time.
I am unsure about the severe weather rating, but you might be able to figure that out by the sizes. One was a 4runner, so 265/70/17, one was a Jeep, 245/70/17 I believe, and the other was a Ford Explorer, which I assume would be somewhere around the same size as the Jeep.
Thai
Elite Member
rook said:
I think that nowadays, all bFG AT KO are snowflake-certified. Some were not early on when BFG was first introduced.
Link: http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/specs/all-terrain-t-a-ko/44.html
For those who have not seen it, rook is referring to the little disclaimer at the bottom of the screen (in link above):
*Size does not meet the RMA requirements for severe snow conditions.
However, for the life of me, i cannot find any size that has the "*" behind it. Can anyone see which size has this??
Rook, you need to add "General Grabber AT 2" to your list as well.
As for Josh and his off-roading, i would recommend BFG AT KO, Goodyear SilentArmor, or even Grabber AT 2 if you want something cheap. Personally, i would stick with bFG or Goodyear...i like big tire companies.
Thai
Elite Member
rook said:
As stated earlier by another member, the RMA designation seemingly has more to do with rubber compound and relative stickiness in winter driving conditions. (more on that below)
If you look at the BFG AT KO tread, then you will see that it has plenty of tread siping...on par with other good AT tires. If you were to sipe it more, then where would you do it?? I don't see any tread block where there is no siping. Compare the amount of siping to the Goodyear Wrangler SilentArmor and you will see that the BFG actually has MORE siping on it's tread block than GY.
I agree with you that the tread pattern may not be ideal...although, i have no data to back up this suspicion. RonM has argued in the past about BFG's poor rain performance due to lack of "aqua channels" (as GY used to promote). GY is a big advertiser/promoter of these channels that they claim direct water away from the center of the tread when a tire goes across a puddle. However, if you look at a lot of the tires today not named Goodyear, then you will see that many good rain tires do NOT have "aqua channels." For example, Michelin Cross Terrain tires are excellent for all-weather use...we all can agree on that, right? Yet, it's tread pattern has no design resembling these Goodyear aqua channels. Or take your average car tire. You just don't see these channels nowadays on tires not named Goodyear. (Michelin also has a tripletred lookalike for it's car tire lineup, but i don't think that it has gotten good reviews for it's rain performance.)
So, what does this have to do with snow performance?? Absolutely nothing.
My point is that none of us are tire experts and you canNOT rely on your eyes to determine how good of a tire it is in certain conditions. We don't know enough to make a full evaluation...at least, i don't.As i mentioned above, the new General Grabber AT 2 is a new tire on the market and is snowflake-certified (for most of it's sizes). If you notice, then you will see that it's tread pattern is nearly identical to BFG AT KO. Why is that?? Marketing?? Is there a benefit to that tread pattern of BFG that we do not know about?? Why would General spend $$$$ designing a tread pattern just like BFG?? They had a lot of choices to pick from i am sure. Yeah, you can argue that General is copying BFG to make it more legit in the market for off-roaders. I don't know. It is a brand new design, yet it's tread blocks are very similar to BFG AT KO. Why would they RISK it if the tread pattern of BFG was so flawed in adverse conditions???? And yet, the tread pattern or materials got the snowflake certification. Coincidence??
(Note: we all know that BFG AT KO tread pattern is NOT solely for off-roading purposes because its tread design itself is a hindrance in mud and the blocks themselves are not seemingly aligned/spaced for proper rock crawling either.)
This brings up another problem in my statement above. IF RMA certification was based solely on rubber compound, then why is it that only certain sizes of General Grabber AT 2 (and seemingly BFG AT KO) are certified with the snowflake?? If RMA only tests the rubber compound in it's evaluation, then shouldn't ALL sizes pass the test?? I don't know the answer.
This goes back to my earlier point...because none of us know enough about tires, the snowflake symbol becomes an important factor in choosing a tire for those of us who live in the snow states (including Denver
: ). The snowflake gives an unbias statement that a certified-tire has passed testing protocol that is the minimum requirement for a true winter tire. My opinion.
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I sent off an email about this to Bridgestone about the Revo and the severe weather rating . It will be interesting to see what the response is since they do have some tires severe weather rated and since it has a lot to do with compound I thought what the heck since they claim to have this state of the art compound.
14 snow
New member
For what it is worth, I received this comment from a canadian tire dealer when I asked about snowflake rated all terrain tires such as some of the one's mentioned here.
"As for the "severe weather rated" all-seasons - they're having their approval for the mountain-snowflake logo revoked, as they did not pass all the required tests."
For me, I decided to go with a true winter tire for my truck.
"As for the "severe weather rated" all-seasons - they're having their approval for the mountain-snowflake logo revoked, as they did not pass all the required tests."
For me, I decided to go with a true winter tire for my truck.
don't want to get in the middle of this intense discussion, but just wanted to mention...been reading a few articles in some 'off road magazines'. I didn't know this, but they stated that snow on-road can be a lot different than snow (and ice) off-road. A tire that does good on snow on-road may not do so good on snow off-road...and vice versa.
okay, I'm outta here...
okay, I'm outta here...
RonMAIDEN
Super Moderator
Snowflake symbol or not my Nittos did quite well for me over 4 winters. So,if Nittos went the route of getting a snowflake symbol but changed nothing else I guess it would make some feel better but it doesn't change their winter performance.
Do companies have to pay to get the snowflake symbol? Maybe some choose not to which might hurt some sales but I prefer to hear from people with real world experience instead of consumer information which factors in so much other data that doesn't pertain to me specifics.
I like to hear from people with experiences on the same vehicle as mine and does similar driving and in similar conditions.
I drove a few years on BFGs and compared to the Nittos they lacked grabbing power in the snow at higher speeds and felt squirelly (sp?) and in heavier rain the Nittos have better defined water evac channels which is apperant when you look at both tires and BFGs do hydroplane a bit sooner than Nittos and don't give much of a warning like the Nittos do which seem to have a better margin of error.
BFGs still kickass off road but when you spend most of your driving on road their are better choices than BFGs or Nittos.
I guess we need a raindrop symbol also. :nerd:
Do companies have to pay to get the snowflake symbol? Maybe some choose not to which might hurt some sales but I prefer to hear from people with real world experience instead of consumer information which factors in so much other data that doesn't pertain to me specifics.
I like to hear from people with experiences on the same vehicle as mine and does similar driving and in similar conditions.
I drove a few years on BFGs and compared to the Nittos they lacked grabbing power in the snow at higher speeds and felt squirelly (sp?) and in heavier rain the Nittos have better defined water evac channels which is apperant when you look at both tires and BFGs do hydroplane a bit sooner than Nittos and don't give much of a warning like the Nittos do which seem to have a better margin of error.
BFGs still kickass off road but when you spend most of your driving on road their are better choices than BFGs or Nittos.
I guess we need a raindrop symbol also. :nerd:
Thai
Elite Member
RMA is a 3rd party to the tire manufacturers. Snowflake is a basic standard for snow tire. It provides a minimal standard by which i can compare one tire to another. It is free of consumer bias. "Real world experience" is full of bias and ignorant statements (from people who know very little about tires)...TireRack is filled with these wonderful "real world experiences." And how do you know if someone really drive the same way as you???
Take the EPA fuel economy rating. People drive differently and will get different fuel economy rating than the EPA. But, why is the EPA rating so important?? Think back to your science class. EPA rating is without consumer bias. It is done with all the variables removed from the equation. EPA is not affected by weather, hills, valleys, etc.. It is a direct comparison between two powertrains under exact same condition by an independent 3rd party. This is about as good as you can get when comparing two entities. Therefore, the rating from EPA gives you a way to compare two cars without bias. The same applies to the snowflake symbol.
A tire with the snowflake has been tested and approved for severe winter conditions. A tire without it has not been tested...and thus, its performance in snow is unknown. And lets face it, the snowflake is HIGHLY REGARDED in the tire industry and respected by several states authorities. THAT is your "real world experience"!!
RonMAIDEN
Super Moderator
Don't tire companies do their own testing? I'm sure they don't just design a tire and "hope" it does well in the inclement weather if they designate it as M&S.
Like I said my Nittos never let me down in 4 winters and I did do a lot of mountain driving in some pretty hilacious conditions or did Nitto just get lucky?
I understand the snowflake symbol but I don't think it's the almighty standard but I can see with some buyers feeling better since they don't have to risk money on a questionable tire to find out if it's worthy in the snow.
Maybe I got lucky with the nittos but i also went by a few other Nitto buyers that were using them in Colorado and had good things to say about them on their 4Runners so I went with that.
Like I said my Nittos never let me down in 4 winters and I did do a lot of mountain driving in some pretty hilacious conditions or did Nitto just get lucky?
I understand the snowflake symbol but I don't think it's the almighty standard but I can see with some buyers feeling better since they don't have to risk money on a questionable tire to find out if it's worthy in the snow.
Maybe I got lucky with the nittos but i also went by a few other Nitto buyers that were using them in Colorado and had good things to say about them on their 4Runners so I went with that.
Thai
Elite Member
M&S designation is a joke...even the tire manufacturers admit this!
I am sure that tire companies do internal testing, but that does not mean much to the consumers. I am sure that China does their own crash testings on their cars, but look at what happens when their cars are tested by an independent 3rd party!! (search Youtube and you will see what i mean!)BTW, some people on here swear by the OEM Dunlops...again, i take what people say with a grain of salt...and this is why standard measuring sticks in the auto industry are so important.
T
ToyTech99
Guest
There was a really good article on how EPA fuel economy ratings are determined in Consumer Reports (I think) where they explained that the majority of testing is NOT done by a 3rd party. The article explained that the EPA doesn't have the resources necessary to complete the testing necessary to assign fuel economy numbers to new vehicles, so they simply allow the manufacturers to perform their own testing, following the guidelines set forth by the EPA. The article did mention that the EPA does check a small percentage of vehicles each year to ensure that the manfacturers are being honest, and if there is a blatant discrepancy in their results, the manufacturers may get fined for falsifying the ratings.
Now that I said that, I wonder if the snowflake symbol thing is a similar deal? Do they allow tire manufacturers to do their own testing to determine if their tires can wear the snowflake symbol?
Thai
Elite Member
How old was that article? In 2008, EPA revised their procedure to be more accurate with real world data and to avoid car manufacturers from cheating the system. Here is more info on the EPA testing: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25859&highlight=epa+fuel+economy
Despite these changes, car manufacturers are becoming smart and changing the car's powertrain to get the most out of the EPA testing protocol. The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid is a prime example. EPA rating is 41/36. The 2010 Camry Hybrid gets 33/34. Big difference! However, this is because the Fusion hybrid can run up to 47 mph in the city without the gasoline engine running. Of course, this would require you to turn off all accessory systems and be really gentle with the gas pedal. Thus, the Fusion Hybrid gets excellent in city mileage...according to EPA. However, as numerous magazines have shown, in REAL WORLD driving, the Fusion gets almost exactly the same mileage as the Camry Hybrid...in fact, in half of the magazine reviews, the Camry beats the Fusion in the city by 1 mpg or so!! I think that the Fusion Hybrid is the exception rather than the rule in terms of beating the EPA protocols. Hybrids can beat the system due to their electric-gas powertrain. The same will apply to the upcoming Chevy Volt...that thing will make amazing EPA numbers!
T
ToyTech99
Guest
It's a very new article. I just read it recently.
The manufacturers basically all do their own fuel economy testing/rating and submit the numbers to the EPA for publication. I believe the EPA only tests about 10% of the figures to keep the manufacturers honest. And yes, I'm aware that the testing procedures have changed to reflect more accurate, real-world figures. But still, it's the manufacturers that have to follow the protocol and complete their own testing, not the EPA as a 3rd party.
T
ToyTech99
Guest
Right, and there lies one of the big problems with hybrids and all of this new technology. The manufacturers not only know the testing protocol, but they can engineer their hybrids to take advantage of the protocol to absolutely optimize their fuel economy for testing purposes. I'm not sure if the testing procedures vary for regular internal combustion vehicles and hybrids, but eventually I'm sure we'll see different testing procedures that are dependent upon the type of drivetrain in the vehicle being tested. I don't think there's any way to be fair when you're comparing a gas car to an electric car or a hybrid car in laboratory testing.
offshorebear
New member
You need the snow flake symbol to drive on emergency snow routes here. When a large storm is declared you need the snow flake, studs, or chains. Of course it hasn't ever been declared here anytime recently, but out west when mountain passes start to restrict traffic it might matter.
