Snowflake Symbol

[ToyTech99]

You need the snow flake symbol to drive on emergency snow routes here. When a large storm is declared you need the snow flake, studs, or chains. Of course it hasn't ever been declared here anytime recently, but out west when mountain passes start to restrict traffic it might matter.

So who enforces that? The Police? And what do they do, pull you over and squat down to find a tiny snowflake symbol on the dirty, snow and salt covered sidewall?

Seems like a silly thing to try and enforce. Yeah, officer, my Dunflops have a snowflake on them...just look real hard and you'll see it. Oh, you mean a snowflake symbol...I thought you meant an actual snowflake. :bigok:

 

[Thai]

You need the snow flake symbol to drive on emergency snow routes here. When a large storm is declared you need the snow flake, studs, or chains. Of course it hasn't ever been declared here anytime recently, but out west when mountain passes start to restrict traffic it might matter.

Like it or not, the snowflake symbol is highly regarded. Thanks offshorebear for mentioning this.

 

[offshorebear]

Yeah, a Snow Emergency hasn't been declared here in PA in a long time. Like I said it probably matters more when you want to go over passes out west, which do close during snow storms. The ranger knows BFGs have snowflake. Or you put on chains.

 

[HB 4X4]

They don't check for the snowflake symbol here on the west coast. If you pull up to a checkpoint with a built rig with decent tires, 4WD, etc they won't question you to go through. They will usually ask if you are "carrying chains" just in case because they are required to ask.

This also applies to Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, and a few others that I have been through. On multiple occasions we were in the last 5 cars allowed through the pass before they shut it down.

It varies by region.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

They don't base anything on the snowflake symbol here either,the CHP just gives a quick look and make sure the tires have tread and have some semblance of snow traction and in alot you must have at least AWD. I'd like to see a state that goes by simply the snowflake symbol since that would have to be stated on the government website also.

I agree that the snowflake symbol is helpful but it's not the last word on snow traction but it's better than simply the M&S rating which like Thai stated is a bit of a joke.

 

[ToyTech99]

They don't base anything on the snowflake symbol here either,the CHP just gives a quick look and make sure the tires have tread and have some semblance of snow traction and in alot you must have at least AWD. I'd like to see a state that goes by simply the snowflake symbol since that would have to be stated on the government website also.

I agree that the snowflake symbol is helpful but it's not the last word on snow traction but it's better than simply the M&S rating which like Thai stated is a bit of a joke.

Yeah, I think I'd LMAO if I ever saw a Ranger looking for the snowflake symbol on the sidewall of a tire. I'd laugh almost as hard if I saw a Ranger looking to see if a particular tire was on a "snowflake" approved list of tires. I think the bottom line is if it's a "real" 4wd vehicle like a 4Runner with a decent amount of tread on the tires, he shouldn't have any problem letting him pass.

 

[Thai]

I think that Oregon is big on it...and recently, Canada too.

 

[CAN-03runner]

Good time to bring this up again, with winter around the corner in many places.

The big difference in snowflake rated tires and those that are not is stopping distance. Most here are driving 4x4 4runners, and or have driven other 4x4's before and after their 4runners. Get up and go, is not what is missing on snow and ice in 4x4 usually regardless of the tire. It is the stopping distance.

To the issue of why some tires have the symbol, and why some don't the test is basically the tire makers agreed on a all season test tire, and the stopping distance measure with it. Then other tires are measured compared to it, and in order to get the snowflake symbol the tires need to stop in at least 10% or more shorter distance.

During the time when this symbol was being developed, there were all season tires and AT tires that would have received the mountain snowflake symbol if the standard existed. Then a year or 2 later, that exact same tire is being manufactured with the mountain/snowflake symbol. So like magic it looks like the tire got a snowflake symbol, and over night became a better tire. The tire was good to start off with, just there was no test or standard to assert that it was better in winter conditions than another tire.

In Canada where more and more places are making it the law to have mountain/snowflake rated tires in the winter, have made it so that certain types of tires are exempt for a few years this includes tires that are marked with LT, or AT, or AT/S, Ice, Ice and Snow.... but not Mud and Snow.... have been exempt. This made it so that for exampe that BFG AT without mountain/snowflake which is exactly the same as the mountain/snowflake version a year later was still legal, and you had a good 4 years to wear them out before you would get ticketed it for.

How do the cops check it. Well at the begining of the season they do, spot check road blocks, then when that is over. If you are stopped for speeding, or blowing a red, they will spot check your tires.

To go back to my initial point. Stopping distance is the key point, and that is usually linked to the fact that the tires are much softer and do not freeze. Driving All season tires in sub zero temperatures is like using a giant frozen hockey puck for tires.

 

[Thai]

The big difference in snowflake rated tires and those that are not is stopping distance. Most here are driving 4x4 4runners, and or have driven other 4x4's before and after their 4runners. Get up and go, is not what is missing on snow and ice in 4x4 usually regardless of the tire. It is the stopping distance.

Ahh, thanks for the explanation! I stand by my original statement...snowflake symbol is legitimate and should be considered in the tire buying decision making, especially for those folks who live in the snowbelt.

 

[flipmode]

Now, I wonder which all season tire they use as the standard. To get the snowflake,
A tire just needs to be 10% better in snow. How do we know that a tire just barely passed the test or if it really is an exceptional snow tire?

 

[Thai]

Now, I wonder which all season tire they use as the standard. To get the snowflake,
A tire just needs to be 10% better in snow. How do we know that a tire just barely passed the test or if it really is an exceptional snow tire?

You don't. Think of it like a crash test. Car A and car B gets "GOOD" ratings in crash test. It doesn't tell you if car A or B is better...it just tells you that both A & B pass the minimum requirement for a "GOOD" score.

Why does this matter? Well, if you are shopping for an AT tire and you're down to two tires (A & B), then you would want the tire with the snowflake symbol (if everything else being equal) simply because the snowflaked-tire has passed the winter test, while the other one did not (or the manufacturer did not think that it will pass, and thus not had it tested). You are assured that the snowflaked-tire was winter tested and has passed minimal requirements for winter driving.

But, if you're comparing two snowflaked-tires, then yeah, there is no good way to see which one is actually better based on the rating/symbol. But, at least in my eyes, this symbol narrows down the selection.

Think of it as the MINIMUM requirement for winter driving. A standard testing protocol for which you can use to compare tires, in regards to winter driving. Does it mean that a snowflaked tire will outperform a regular tire in all cases? Maybe and maybe not. But, at least, i know in the back of my mind that my snowflaked tire won't be the worst in the winter...and would likely do well.

If this symbol is a joke (aka like M&S rating), then tire and state govt would ignore it. This is NOT the case because it is clear that this symbol is taken seriously by many folks, including state governments and tire manufacturers.

 

[flipmode]

Thanks for the thorough response. what i'm trying o point out is I believe the standards for the test are dated. Take a look at all the new tires coming out, a/s, a/t, comm tract., that have the snowflake. The symbol has become the new "m+s" though not quite to that extent "yet." Pretty soon all tires save for summer tires will have the snowflake as compound and tread technologies advance. I'm sure people all "felt safer" with their m+s tires driving in the ice age too.

 

[gbc]

ADHERENCE " thats all I got to say about that"

 

[RonMAIDEN]

And how many states are actually looking for a snowflake symbol on your tires? I drove on the snowflakless Nittos for 5 winters and didn't have any issues with them but I will say my snowflaked Duratracs have a little better bite from a standstill but I haven't noticed a huge difference between the two. I go by my seat of the pants feel when it comes to snow traction.

 

[Thai]

Thanks for the thorough response. what i'm trying o point out is I believe the standards for the test are dated. Take a look at all the new tires coming out, a/s, a/t, comm tract., that have the snowflake. The symbol has become the new "m+s" though not quite to that extent "yet." Pretty soon all tires save for summer tires will have the snowflake as compound and tread technologies advance. I'm sure people all "felt safer" with their m+s tires driving in the ice age too.

Well, again back to the crash test analogy, most new cars nowadays get a "GOOD" rating...does that mean that the crash test scores are useless or outdated? No. Does it mean that it needs to get tougher? Maybe. But, like the crash test scores, the snowflake serves a good point to start researching about tires, if you care about winter driving...because it serves as the bare minimum requirement for winter driving.

And how many states are actually looking for a snowflake symbol on your tires? I drove on the snowflakless Nittos for 5 winters and didn't have any issues with them but I will say my snowflaked Duratracs have a little better bite from a standstill but I haven't noticed a huge difference between the two. I go by my seat of the pants feel when it comes to snow traction.

Well, the world does not only include Colorado! Canada is a pretty big "state" if you ask me! "Seat of the pants feeling" is purely subjective...and thus, not very helpful to others and not very helpful when comparing tires. This is where EPA, crash test scores, snowflake symbol, etc. come in handy...it serves as a standard to compare competing items.

 

[Thai]

Well, again back to the crash test analogy, most new cars nowadays get a "GOOD" rating...does that mean that the crash test scores are useless or outdated? No. Does it mean that it needs to get tougher? Maybe. But, like the crash test scores, the snowflake serves a good point to start researching about tires, if you care about winter driving...because it serves as the bare minimum requirement for winter driving.

Hate to quote myself, but here is more info: Don

So, indeed, the snowflake symbol is truly the BARE MINIMUM requirement...and people are calling for tougher guidelines for winter tires.

 

[CAN-03runner]

Now, I wonder which all season tire they use as the standard. To get the snowflake,
A tire just needs to be 10% better in snow. How do we know that a tire just barely passed the test or if it really is an exceptional snow tire?

I don't think it is ever said which tire was used as the benchmark tire to beat. I don't any of the tire makers wanted their tire to be the one identified as the mediocre one to beat.

The other good issue brought up is that a tire which is 10% better and one that is 30% better will get the same snowflake rating. So recently there is talk to yet again up here in Canada to revamp this snowflake symbol to tackle this shortcoming to the rating. But even that is pretty good. If there is 100ft or 10 ft between you and a wall or pedestrian, and you need to slam on the breaks, and are able to stop 10ft sooner or 1 ft sooner. 1 ft sooner and that pedestrian still has legs! Remember it's like going to buy something for a 1$ but you only have 99cents. every little penny or ft in stopping distance means something and counts.

But true, honest, really good, top of the line winter tires.... not old snow tires, but winter tires, are not AT tires even if they have the snowflake symbol. Winter tires are very very soft and will pretty much disappear if you drive them regularly on the road in the summer. AT tires are not normally so soft that they wear out in one season and are normally built rugged, can take some punishment and weight. You can push your finger nail into the thread of winter tires. Maybe AT's are probably hovering that 10% mark. But maybe not....that info is not given, hence why the clamering right now to rework the standard to mean a little more. Rome wasn't built in one day!

You will notice that top of the line winter tires, unlike the AT tires which have a fair amount of void, have tight thread patterns, with lots of sipping. This sipping acts as a straw. As the tire contact the cold wet pavement/ice it draw the water there or created from the pressure of the weight of the car into the sipping. It's that thin layer of water that make ice slipery. Kind of how ice skates work. The thin blade melts a layer of water that you glide on. So hockey players are performing the proverbial walking on water....hehe...

I've used all seasons, and winter tires. Night and day difference. And I get what a lot of the guys say, that the driver has a lot to do with it. For sure, without a doubt. Winter tires is not a license to drive like an idiot on snow and ice. I removed my winter tires last year and put on my LT Mud tires for a snow offroading day and never went back to winter, I was lazy. I definately noticed the difference, and I sure needed to adjust my driving, and I did not have any incident, But I had to drive slower, because I knew my stopping was longer, and I would slide at stop signs and turning corners got hairy too sometimes.

Anyways, I always had 2 sets of tires, and I think they make a big difference. You know we put so much effort into identifying the best offroad tire, or the best cornering and handling tire, and have street tires and track tires etc.... purpose built....well winter tires, purpose built for winter driving. Check out some of the videos on tirerack. Ok that's it for now...I'm blowing all my material in one sitting.... hehe...:cheers:

 

[IanB]

Thanks for the thorough response. what i'm trying o point out is I believe the standards for the test are dated. Take a look at all the new tires coming out, a/s, a/t, comm tract., that have the snowflake. The symbol has become the new "m+s" though not quite to that extent "yet." Pretty soon all tires save for summer tires will have the snowflake as compound and tread technologies advance. I'm sure people all "felt safer" with their m+s tires driving in the ice age too.

If that happens, then you can rest assured that all tires are now better in snow/ice than most tires were a few years ago. They may not be the best, but they are all better, and that is advancement. If we ever reach that point, then it will be time for a new standard to further set apart the truly great snow/ice tires from the rest of the pack. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Thai]

If that happens, then you can rest assured that all tires are now better in snow/ice than most tires were a few years ago. They may not be the best, but they are all better, and that is advancement. If we ever reach that point, then it will be time for a new standard to further set apart the truly great snow/ice tires from the rest of the pack. Rinse, repeat.

Exactly. We may see a 2nd edition to the snowflake symbol in the near future as indicated in the article above.

This is the same case with the crash test scores. First, it was NHTSA with their basic crash tests...then IIHS came out with offset crash test along with a multitude of other tests (roof strength for example)...and now in 2011, NHTSA has revised their crash standards to be even tougher than IIHS in some respects! Progress is made for a safer tomorrow. (Hehe, i sound like an infomercial!)

But, to be honest, if i had 2 tires that met my needs, but only one has the snowflake symbol, then i will buy the snowflake tire for peace of mind that it has been at least tested and passed the minimum requirement. And if i ever go to Canada or Oregon, then i am assured that i will be able to pass the checkpoints.

Rinse, repeat...i like that.

 

[JB.]

I think the snowflake is taking its place right next to M&S as a logo with limited usefullnes. The article below sums up the situation nicely and only reinforces the bits and pieces I've found over the last couple of years convincing me that neither the absence nor presence of the logo have much informational value. Add the fact that snowflake tires are torture tested at reduced speed and you have the unseemly potential for a tire maker to try get the snowflake on a tire of dubious quality and performance, soley so it can pass the easier test.

New winter tire logo losing market value | Wheels.ca

"However, in recent testing carried out by Transport Canada, some tires bearing that logo had only as much grip as some all-season tires."
--
"Bridgestone also ran tests and came to a similar conclusion. It's the light-truck and SUV tires that were deemed blatant examples of tires that do not grip at the alpine-approved level, according to Michael Sigillito, director of retail Canadian marketing for the company."
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"Transport Canada's testing turned up the wide variation in grip in the snowflake-rated tires."
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"On a Toyota SUV, three alpine-rated tires and three all-terrain tires were tested, with two of these all-terrain tires bearing the snowflake-and-mountain logo.

The winter tires went first. The first tire's stopping distance was given a rating of 100. The rest of the tires were scored on how they compared on a percentage scale, with lower numbers better.

The second winter tire scored 93 per cent – an even shorter stop. The third winter-rated tire scored 103 per cent, a slightly longer stopping distance than the first.

Then, the first all-terrain all-season tire (without a snowflake logo) rated 140 per cent, a 40 per cent longer braking distance than the first tire, which was to be expected.

But the second all-terrain tire that featured the winter logo took 153 per cent of the baseline tire's distance to stop. The last all-terrain Alpine tire rated a score of 141 per cent."