So while I'm stranded...

[anotherrunner83]

i find it odd that they called you back with that proposal...almost like they found something they flubbed up or maybe it's because you were just there to have work done. i try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. you may want to try calling toyota corporate and reporting the issue to them. if you are not happy with the way it is being handled, they might be able to work with the dealer as well.

as someone else said, make sure that they show you the failure in the truck before they tear into it (if it's not too late). i would have expected you to hear quite a bearing whine before it completely seized on you. seals will just wear out and start leaking, but they usually start with a drip, not a catastrophic failure, your's looks somewhere in between. oil on the belt would cause it to slip, but why would it spray forward to the belt? i would think you would have had enough air flow to push it back. if the alternator locking up caused the crank to move and damage the seal...i'd be shocked. you probably would have heard a big bang if that was the case and potentially a instantaneous loss of power, but i think you would have heard/felt it

 

[V8Man]

In the last two pics it looks like I see part of the broken serp belt on the hoses. The a/c pulley has nothing on it. In the other pics the inside, toward the engine side of the belt is gone. Guessing here but the belt was rubbing on something, cover something. The belt threads wrapped around harmonic balancer and wiped out the seal. Once the oil started spraying around a/c and alternator stopped working. Looks like mechanics mistake.
I bet there is a ball of belting wrapped around the bottom of the motor.

 

[sdevine42]

So I couldn't get a tech to show me what was going on yesterday but I was able to this morning. With the serp belt removed, I could spin the alternator but with quite a bit of resistance - I assume that should spin smoothly/freely. This is what they are basing the assumption that the alternator froze and stopped the belt.

My gut still hates the fact that this truck has run like a Swiss watch for years without a drop of oil leaking, then 3 days after they work on it all hell breaks loose. But with that said, I will give the dealer a lot of credit for the way are handling it: I pay to replace the alternator, they will cover the belt and crankshaft seal. If we later find that something else is the cause of this issue like the A/C compressor or something they will credit me the amount of the alternator towards whatever that service is.

I noticed that the coolant reservoir was very low despite just having the water pump replaced and the system flushed in the process. The radiator was full and the tech attributed it simply to the fact that the reservoir level will fluctuate. Does that sound right?

 

[radlynx]

correct. the coolant reservoir will fluctuate based on engine temperature. hopefully, it did not damage anything else. I still can't believe a freezing alternator could cause an oil to leak there. I know an alternator can freeze but not cause an engine oil to splatter since it does not use oil but greased bearing. get my point!

I agree, they need to show you where the oil leak came from.

So I couldn't get a tech to show me what was going on yesterday but I was able to this morning. With the serp belt removed, I could spin the alternator but with quite a bit of resistance - I assume that should spin smoothly/freely. This is what they are basing the assumption that the alternator froze and stopped the belt.

My gut still hates the fact that this truck has run like a Swiss watch for years without a drop of oil leaking, then 3 days after they work on it all hell breaks loose. But with that said, I will give the dealer a lot of credit for the way are handling it: I pay to replace the alternator, they will cover the belt and crankshaft seal. If we later find that something else is the cause of this issue like the A/C compressor or something they will credit me the amount of the alternator towards whatever that service is.

I noticed that the coolant reservoir was very low despite just having the water pump replaced and the system flushed in the process. The radiator was full and the tech attributed it simply to the fact that the reservoir level will fluctuate. Does that sound right?

 

[nevada]

In the last two pics it looks like I see part of the broken serp belt on the hoses. The a/c pulley has nothing on it. In the other pics the inside, toward the engine side of the belt is gone. Guessing here but the belt was rubbing on something, cover something. The belt threads wrapped around harmonic balancer and wiped out the seal. Once the oil started spraying around a/c and alternator stopped working. Looks like mechanics mistake.
I bet there is a ball of belting wrapped around the bottom of the motor.

I had thought the same, and mentioned it earlier.
but if you look closely, you can see the belt still on the AC pulley. its just the angle the picture was taken, straight in line with the belt. makes it hard to see.


I agree with the rest of what you are saying. that could be possible.




to the OP, how much resistance to spin the alternator? if you spin it, will it turn several times before stopping?

 

[sdevine42]

I agree, they need to show you where the oil leak came from.

Yeah they seemed pretty confident it came from the crankshaft pulley. And honestly the way the belt frayed around the edge it certainly could have wrapped around it and yanked it.

 

[sdevine42]

to the OP, how much resistance to spin the alternator? if you spin it, will it turn several times before stopping?

No free-turning/momentum at all. Since it was still slick from the oil, I had to press rather hard to get it to turn at all.

 

[V8Man]

Belt Cords

Sorry [MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION] I missed your post. Reading on an iPhone I miss it sometimes.:thumb: Also these V6’s are foreign to me!:shrug:
After looking at the pictures on my computer and not on my phone, I can clearly see the belt cords laying on the fan pulley. Look at the pink part and the cords on it. I wouldn't be surprised if the alternator didn't have cording wrapped around it too. The seal was wiped out from the belt coming apart. For that much oil to be all over it suggests to me that the engine was running for a while as it coated everything with oil.
Possible causes of belt failure.
Something was rubbing on the belt, a hose clamp, loose bolt from the water pump, something missed by the mechanic. Cords wrapped around crank seal.
Alternator locked up and burnt the belt. Belt came apart and took out the seal. If the alternator spins this didn’t happen. If the belt isn’t worn on the inside and only on the side this didn’t happen.

 

[sdevine42]

The belt was definitely worn on the inside and the alternator didn't spin without a lot of help.

 

[alia176]

I fail to understand how can a broken serp belt cause a crankshaft seal "to go"!! Granted, I don't have a V6, nor have I worked on the c-shaft seal of my V8. However, these seals slowly leak over time, not explode and throw oil everywhere.

Secondly, an alternator bearing just doesn't seize up suddenly. If it were dying a horrible slow death, it would squeal over a very long time. The only way to seize an alternator is to jam a screwdriver into the rotor and I don't see that happening while the vehicle is sailing down the hwy. So, did anything go inside the alternator automagically?

Are we thinking that the a/c compressor seized and caused all this mess? Or did we rule it out?

Are we sure that a low pressure oil return hose didn't get nicked somewhere? I'm assuming that this V6 engine doesn't have high pressure engine hoses anywhere exposed.

 

[sdevine42]

You can see from a couple of the pictures that the belt edge essentially peeled and created a thin string/rope that was probably 12 inches long. They think that wrapped around the crank pulley and ripped it.

Like [MENTION=119796]alia176[/MENTION], I have a hard time believing that the alternator just seized out of nowhere after being on the hwy for 2-3 hrs. I wonder if something like the compressor (or water pump/misaligned belt/etc.) caused the belt damage, which in turn damaged the alternator, as opposed to the alternator being the catalyst.

 

[alia176]

You can see from a couple of the pictures that the belt edge essentially peeled and created a thin string/rope that was probably 12 inches long. They think that wrapped around the crank pulley and ripped it.

Like [MENTION=119796]alia176[/MENTION], I have a hard time believing that the alternator just seized out of nowhere after being on the hwy for 2-3 hrs. I wonder if something like the compressor (or water pump/misaligned belt/etc.) caused the belt damage, which in turn damaged the alternator, as opposed to the alternator being the catalyst.

I have a feeling that the dealership knows the problem and depending on how you approach it, that's going to set the path going forward.


It feels like a PS hose got nicked somehow during this debacle and sprayed ATF everywhere. Just a WAG from looking at the pics.

I really would like to know the cause and effect here.

You CAN'T seize an alternator while it's operational. PERIOD.
- stick a screwdriver through the cooling holes while it's spinning at thousands of RPMs
- a dead engine that's been sitting by the coast will have a seized alternator
- an alternator sitting outside for months will also have the same problem.
-once you break those alternators loose, chances are they'll continue to spin if driven by an engine. They'll sound like shit but they'll continue to spin.

The crank pulley didn't come off the crank shaft, that we know. So, that means that the crank shaft didn't go out of balance all of a sudden. Which leads to the c-shaft seal not being forced to operate out of its circular motion. In another words, if the c-shaft were spinning in an oblong fashion, I can see the seal leaking. If your c-shaft were spinning out of round, holy hell would be breaking loose in your engine!!!

If you get a chance to take more pics, please do. This is fascinating to me but the more eyes are on this issue, hopefully the stronger your case will be.

A local friend went through something similar with the local stealership. His wife's FJC "suddenly" sprung a leak at the front crank shaft seal. I'll speak to him about this tonight. Well actually, let me see if he can chime in himself. I'll fwd him this thread right now.

 

[sonerick]

The waterpump is driven by the timing belt and it has no affect on the serp belt. So, I think you're good there.

I agree with most of your points but this is not true on the V6. The water pump is driven by the serpentine belt, not the timing chain.

 

[alia176]

I agree with most of your points but this is not true on the V6. The water pump is driven by the serpentine belt, not the timing chain.

Thank you for the correction. I'll delete that statement.

 

[sonerick]

I have a hard time believing that the alternator just seized out of nowhere after being on the hwy for 2-3 hrs. I wonder if something like the compressor (or water pump/misaligned belt/etc.) caused the belt damage, which in turn damaged the alternator, as opposed to the alternator being the catalyst.

I agree with you...

I believe R&R of the water pump calls for unbolting/removing the alternator. This is just too big of a coincidence to ignore, since they were just in there doing the work AND offered to help you out on the repair. Seems like they were at fault, and know it too.

 

[sdevine42]

Here's a couple of pictures I snapped after the dealer had it for a day. The belt has been removed at this point.

--

 

[sdevine42]

I agree with you...

I believe R&R of the water pump calls for unbolting/removing the alternator. This is just too big of a coincidence to ignore, since they were just in there doing the work AND offered to help you out on the repair. Seems like they were at fault, and know it too.

That's honestly exactly how I feel. But looking at the situation as someone in their 20's that hasn't really worked on autos other than basic maintenance, I feel like I really have no way to truly put the pressure on them. I feel like if I can make it out with my runner back in the great condition it was in before all this without paying crazy $$$ then that's about as good as I can do.

 

[gm350reratliff]

Sorry [MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION] I missed your post. Reading on an iPhone I miss it sometimes.:thumb: Also these V6’s are foreign to me!:shrug:
After looking at the pictures on my computer and not on my phone, I can clearly see the belt cords laying on the fan pulley. Look at the pink part and the cords on it. I wouldn't be surprised if the alternator didn't have cording wrapped around it too. The seal was wiped out from the belt coming apart. For that much oil to be all over it suggests to me that the engine was running for a while as it coated everything with oil.
Possible causes of belt failure.
Something was rubbing on the belt, a hose clamp, loose bolt from the water pump, something missed by the mechanic. Cords wrapped around crank seal.
Alternator locked up and burnt the belt. Belt came apart and took out the seal. If the alternator spins this didn’t happen. If the belt isn’t worn on the inside and only on the side this didn’t happen.

The belt was definitely worn on the inside and the alternator didn't spin without a lot of help.

After looking at all this, I wonder if the belt was completely on the pulleys. They might have left one rib off which made the inside of the belt come apart. As the belt was coming apart, it was wrapping cords around the alternator and crankshaft, compromising both in the process.

I fail to understand how can a broken serp belt cause a crankshaft seal "to go"!! Granted, I don't have a V6, nor have I worked on the c-shaft seal of my V8. However, these seals slowly leak over time, not explode and throw oil everywhere.

Secondly, an alternator bearing just doesn't seize up suddenly. If it were dying a horrible slow death, it would squeal over a very long time. The only way to seize an alternator is to jam a screwdriver into the rotor and I don't see that happening while the vehicle is sailing down the hwy. So, did anything go inside the alternator automagically?

Are we thinking that the a/c compressor seized and caused all this mess? Or did we rule it out?

Are we sure that a low pressure oil return hose didn't get nicked somewhere? I'm assuming that this V6 engine doesn't have high pressure engine hoses anywhere exposed.

I have a feeling that the dealership knows the problem and depending on how you approach it, that's going to set the path going forward.


It feels like a PS hose got nicked somehow during this debacle and sprayed ATF everywhere. Just a WAG from looking at the pics.

I really would like to know the cause and effect here.

You CAN'T seize an alternator while it's operational. PERIOD.
- stick a screwdriver through the cooling holes while it's spinning at thousands of RPMs
- a dead engine that's been sitting by the coast will have a seized alternator
- an alternator sitting outside for months will also have the same problem.
-once you break those alternators loose, chances are they'll continue to spin if driven by an engine. They'll sound like shit but they'll continue to spin.

The crank pulley didn't come off the crank shaft, that we know. So, that means that the crank shaft didn't go out of balance all of a sudden. Which leads to the c-shaft seal not being forced to operate out of its circular motion. In another words, if the c-shaft were spinning in an oblong fashion, I can see the seal leaking. If your c-shaft were spinning out of round, holy hell would be breaking loose in your engine!!!

If you get a chance to take more pics, please do. This is fascinating to me but the more eyes are on this issue, hopefully the stronger your case will be.

A local friend went through something similar with the local stealership. His wife's FJC "suddenly" sprung a leak at the front crank shaft seal. I'll speak to him about this tonight. Well actually, let me see if he can chime in himself. I'll fwd him this thread right now.

Yes, they do just seize up. I've been stranded a few times due to it (former GM guy here). Bearings sometimes fail for no reason. I've seen it on alternators all the way to 4500 HP electric motors.

That's honestly exactly how I feel. But looking at the situation as someone in their 20's that hasn't really worked on autos other than basic maintenance, I feel like I really have no way to truly put the pressure on them. I feel like if I can make it out with my runner back in the great condition it was in before all this without paying crazy $$$ then that's about as good as I can do.

At this point, that is probably the best outcome.

Before leaving the dealership, pop the hood and check coolant and oil levels, check for leaks, and check to see that the belt is completely on all the pulleys.

 

[sdevine42]

Before leaving the dealership, pop the hood and check coolant and oil levels, check for leaks, and check to see that the belt is completely on all the pulleys.

Will do - hoping to have it back this afternoon.

I just want to say to the members of this forum, thank you for all of the advice and experience you share here. I'm not the most active poster (mostly b/c I have very little to bring to the table) but I am a loyal lurker and scan threads everyday in a feeble attempt to learn through others experiences.

May all your Runners live long and happy lives.

 

[alia176]

Will do - hoping to have it back this afternoon.

I just want to say to the members of this forum, thank you for all of the advice and experience you share here. I'm not the most active poster (mostly b/c I have very little to bring to the table) but I am a loyal lurker and scan threads everyday in a feeble attempt to learn through others experiences.

May all your Runners live long and happy lives.

You're handling this well given the circumstances and resources avail to you and your attitude is superb.