**Solved***Long Cranks but runs when started

[calimobber]

Solved- see final post it was the injectors leaking.

Thanksgiving I was headed to meet friends camping. The day before I left I noticed the 4runner cranked longer than normal. I took note and left for trip. I got about half way and got gas. Went to leave and car didn't start. Tried cranking a few times and nothing. went inside and got some starting fluid. Used that and it fired right up and stayed running fine. Drove home cause the issues and it ran fine over mountains and all. Got home turn off then back on it started. back off and it didn't start.

No codes yet but im thinking maybe cam/crank sensor. Ive looked through other posts about it. Most people seem to get codes. anyone have this issue and it be a sensor and get no codes?

I did timing belt water pump a month or 2 ago so wonder if moving the wires or something caused issue.



Update: Ended up being my scangauge being plugged into the ob2. Once removed everything was good. plugged back in and it would not start. more detail on the last post.

 

[T4R2014]

If the crank sensor was bad I'd think it wouldn't run at all. Sounds more like the fuel pump check valve. Pretty sure it is built into the pump on pretty much all vehicles in the past 30 years.

 

[calimobber]

Seems like other people with a sensor starting to act up it still ran but this is all guess.

I do plan to replace the fuel pump and filter since it's still original and would be a good preventative since I do pretty remote trips a lot.

 

[brillo_76]

I am suspecting your fuel pump is going. Why I am thinking this is this is occurring after a complete shutdown and restart. The crank position sensor is easy to check if you have a code reader. As if your obd2 is reading rpm when cranking its working just fine. All obd2 readers can read the engine rpm from the connector. As the 5vz-fe will not start the fuel pump until is gets the crank position rpm signal.

Another thought would be the if the rig has an immobilizer in it. Maybe that is acting up as thoughts.

 

[calimobber]

Welp dropped the tank yesterday and swapped the pump and filter...what a pain didn't realize the 2001/2002 models had 3 extra rubber lines going to the tank. Decided to cut a hole under the rear seat just to have access to those as it was so hard to reach and didn't want to break anything.

Dont think it fixed it as it was still have a long crank when I started it. turn off and of like 5 or 6 times and seems the same but ill do more testing today and do a longer drive.

At least its a new pump now and one less thing to think about on a 280k miles car.

 

[calimobber]

So it's still doing the same thing. crank for 3 second nothing. crank again around 3 seconds it fires.


So changed the fuel pump, filter, checked etc water temp sensor, pulled a vacuum on fuel regulator and it seems to hold fine to diaphragm is still good. Cleaned the mass airflow sensor.

I guess the next thing is put a fuel pressure gauge inline and see if pressure still holds when the cars off. ??

Anymore ideas id love to hear them, thanks.

 

[phattyduck]

Leaking (slightly open) fuel injector bleeding down fuel pressure, maybe?

-Charlie

 

[calimobber]

Little doubtful of that one cause I feel like it would fire since other cylinders would be fine it would prob just be a little rough as one would kinda stumble and fire as it cleaned up. right?


My fuel pressure tester didn't have the right fittings to do what I wanted so could not test that. It didn't have the to place inline to see if the pressure holds. I jumped the fuel pump relay so it ran as soon as the turned the key. Let it pump for maybe 20 seconds before trying to start it. This should in theory build the pressure back up if the issue is the regulator failing and it draining back to the tank. That didn't change anything.

I made sure the vacuum line to the regulator was fully on and good and made sure the diagram was good but pulling suction and holding with the vacuum pump.


The last few times it's been starting normal. Going to drive it to work tomorrow just to test it out and it will be nice and cold in the morning so ill see how that starts then

 

[calimobber]

So update. I decided to go on a trip even with the issue. car seems to run fine when running and I drove 2 hours. Most of the trip once the car was hot if I turned it off it won't start for maybe 20 min. I bought some carb cleaner and sprayed into the intake and it started but once it burned the fuel is died again. tried a few times then just waited another 10 min and she fired up and stayed running.

Gas mileage was pretty horrible so I think it's running rich. I got like 11.5mpg driving mostly highway. Fuel light came on at 175 miles. I added the A/F gauge and that looked fine idling at 14.7. I might try and read some injector numbers today and maybe stick a scope into the piston to see if any injectors are leaking fuel.

No engine lights all. This is very frustrating cause I dont want to just throw money at parts that done need replacing.

Engine idles fine at 700rpm but I can hear a little stubble happening when its idling like ever so often is sounds off. I have a 2002 so aic is all connected but ill try to clean that today as well.

 

[olerunner]

I'm having a similar problem right now AFTER replacing my fuel pump. I'm thinking injector rings. I'll keep posted

 

[spartacus]

Wouldn't hurt to check the grounds and battery wires all good.

 

[calimobber]

Trying to get back to up updating old threads to give people the results/fix.

So it turned out one of the injectors was leaking outside the engine so prob inside as well. I had seen some oily fluid dripping in back of the engine and was worried it was an oil leak but it was fuel sitting in old oil on the engine and turning black as it ran down the back of the egine. Just smelled like oil.

So I removed all my injectors and put them in my ultrasonic cleaner. I bought a cheap rebuild kit which sent me the wrong kit and was for the early 3rd gen injectors but I was able to use the gaskets from it and it seems to have worked, no leaks.

The engine starting normal now and no fluid leaks. At some point I might order some rebuilt ones or send these in to get cleaned properly, but for now its running great, thanks for the help.

 

[calimobber]

JK it seemed to work fine for a few weeks staying local. I went on a 4hr drive and everything was fine. Then after another 4 hours heading back, starting and stopping a few times along the way, I parked sat for a few minutes then went to leave and nothing crank crank crank. waited an hour still nothing. drove to get started fluid in friends car and came back. It ran fine on starter fluid but once it ran out of fuel it died.

Buddy towed me a few miles to a down hill section where we disconnected and I was in neutral and coasted downhill. I figured why not try again, while coasting and it started! drove 2 hrs back home parked in driveway. Tried to start it right after stopping and nothing crank crank crank. Figured since it worked great for a few weeks it must be injectors. Ordered then motor sports west.

Installed tonight it started fine. was checking stuff starting and stopping. Then it stopped starting. tried a few times cranking for 5-10 seconds wait a few second then crank again nothing... went to get a scanner from a friend and it started when I got back. Driving me nuts!!!!!!

What prevents the injectors from firing? crank/cam sensor seem fine. thermostat on top of the engine seems fine. MAF reading fine. Have a new fuel pump.

 

[phattyduck]

Have a new fuel pump.

What was the source and brand for that new pump?

Just this past weekend I had a pump go out on me - started first with no-start after a long drive. Quickly got worse to dying at idle randomly. Made it to my destination and had to change the pump in the parking lot. Maybe heat soak on the pump locks it up after it stops moving in your case.

History on mine:
OEM pump, added supercharger and needed to upgrade the pump (OEM pump doesn't flow enough for the supercharger). Put in a mild "upgrade" Walbro 190 (came with the 7th injector kit). That one would get extra loud when hot... so I changed it for a Deatschwerks DW100 pump to try to get a quieter similar flow pump... that one lasted ~6 months to the above issue. The pump I could get on short notice was a 2007 WRX OEM replacement style pump by Delphi from a nearby NAPA. I'll be going to an OEM WRX pump (same application) or a 06/07 Toyota 4Runner V8 pump for long term reliability in the near future, most likely.

-Charlie

 

[calimobber]

I got a denso pump from a denso approved seller. DensoProducts.com or something.

So I installed referbished motorsportwest injectors. It fired up and ran great. then 20min later it was failing to start just cranking. got my buddy pro scanner and was trying to look at all the live data but when I got the scanner it was working and everything looked normal. Tried starting after work each day and it always started fine.

Yesterday it did the long crank but would start. started diving in more. checked ohms for MAF, Crank sensor, all throttle body plugs and it all tested in spec. replaced spark plugs and it didnt change anything.

I have parts coming to add a fuel pressure test port and noids to test injectors. I used a volt meter on injectors and it showed 0v until the car fired and then it showed 1v so that backs my theory the injectors are not firing.

Hooked up a oscilloscope to read crank and cam signal and they look good but cars starting just fine right now so ill be ready to test it when its acting up. Pulling out my hair haha.

 

[brillo_76]

Wow... This has to be fuel or ignition...You have any factory or aftermarket security in this rig? I have seen a factory module go bad in one and it wouldn't start until I changed the module. When puff one day, I can really understand why this is driving you crazy.

Are you loosing engine ground? Battery and thermals all good? As an intermittent fuel pump would cause this too. I probably would temporally series in a fuel gauge into your fuel rail. If your driving around and the pressure stays constant it would roll the fuel pump out.

Then its coils and injectors... once the fuel pump is rolled out... Fuel gauge working properly? because if your tank looses its ground the fuel pump maybe having issues from that

 

[calimobber]

Its never had a security system that i know of.

I did the big 3 grounding so I dont think thats an issue but you never know.It acted up again this evening and i was able to read the crank/cam and they are giving signal even when it didnt start. we giggled the injector rail wiring and nothing really stood out. sometimes you get excited and think thats it but then you shake it and crank and it never starts.

I pulled the ecm and just looked at the board but nothing stands out, it all looks normal(i know stuff could still have failed and not show it).

So now its wait until I can get fuel pressure to just to rule it out and I might try and borrow a friends ECM since we have the same 4runners. Might call yota1 and just see if they have seen or heard of an issue like this before.

Thanks for the comments

 

[brillo_76]

Its never had a security system that i know of.

I did the big 3 grounding so I dont think thats an issue but you never know.It acted up again this evening and i was able to read the crank/cam and they are giving signal even when it didnt start. we giggled the injector rail wiring and nothing really stood out. sometimes you get excited and think thats it but then you shake it and crank and it never starts.

I pulled the ecm and just looked at the board but nothing stands out, it all looks normal(i know stuff could still have failed and not show it).

So now its wait until I can get fuel pressure to just to rule it out and I might try and borrow a friends ECM since we have the same 4runners. Might call yota1 and just see if they have seen or heard of an issue like this before.

Thanks for the comments

Good thought on the ecm.. That would be extremely rare and I doubt it go intermittent like this. However if they are the same part number a quick swap would rule this out.

Another thought, if not security system. The contacts on the back of the key,
can wear...I only seen it happen once, in my instance, the start contacts were just enough that it acted like a dead starter.. It wasn't. It was the contacts on the key connector... Changed a starter for nothing to find it.

I am just wondering if your loosing your ignition contacts connection are loosing connection there which would act like a dead ignition.... When it does this long cranks, do you still have any spark? As your seeing injector pulses and crankshaft sensor signals. As when my contacts went it was intermittent on starts

May not be, but just a thought.

 

[calimobber]

So just had buddy come by with his 2002 runner and I swapped the ECM/MAF and throttle body and it acted the same. So it's not those things.

The starter sounds good. crank strong every time. Also it's sparking fine. Ive tested spark with the spark tester and last time it failed to start I sprayed starter fluid in the intake and it would run and then die when I stopped spraying.

Ive got a noid testing coming but I dont think the injectors are firing. Hooking the volt meter to a connector it shows 0v while cranking then jumps to 1v once It starts firing like its finally getting signal then it starts

I appreciate the thoughts, any input from anyone is helpful since I haven't gotten much advice on here about it.

 

[calimobber]

Update- I think my issue is the cam sensor. Looking at the oscilloscope it seems like the signal is intermittent. Just keeping this thread updated for people following even though its not getting much interest lol.

Here is some footage of it.

- YouTube

Ive got a replacement on the way and will update after its installed.