SUV critics
- Thread starter Expat
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Expat
Banned
bluewolf said:
LOL - I don't know that I'm torturing myself about this. I thought this was a discussion forum where people have...you know...discussions.
There is a lot of pressure groups banning this that and the other (as per some of your examples above). Critisicm directed at SUV's is one that concerns me as the pressure groups band together attemtping to place restictions on SUV's as per the current example in Paris. I enjoy the banter with others on other forums about my choice of vehicles and came here thinking some of you might have some thought proving come-backs, some might be humouress, some statistical, some just random thoughts.
Having said that, I am thinking about my social responsibility as someone who adds to the destruction of our planet. I am considering the part my SUV plays in that process. Note I am thinking about it, not torturing myself about. LOL
Thanks for your imput anyhow.
I think you have to look at your total impact on the environment. Alway try to do the best you can without being a nut case. I would not pour my used oil onto the ground. I drive a mid sized SUV because I need one vehicle that can haul stuff. Many of the people that complain do things that are much worse then driving a SUV, example 6000 sq ft. house with heated swimming pool, your own private plane, etc. etc.
BigDogMoney
New member
We don't have to be "tree huggers" but I think we owe it to future generations to be environmentally conscious, not just with vehicles, but with recycling etc. I bought a 4Runner because it's fun to drive and it looks good, but it's a gas guzzler, and it's this appetite of our vehicles for oil that has something to do with our men and women being in Iraq right now.
bluewolf
New member
04Runner said:
Yeah, sorry for coming on a bit strong. :rolleye2: I'm just so irritated at what a wildfire the whole "political-correctness" thing has become as of late, and not just limited to environmental issues, that I've lost a lot of patience. Most of the loudest-screaming advocates of the whole "SUV irresponsibility" argument are not even willing to discuss the solid facts of the matter, which is why I don't give them much respect.
BigDogMoney
New member
Pitbull said:I guess I'm confused? I thought Bush said it was terrorist and WMD? Hope your not draft age or you will soon be joining them
I hope you're joking.
bamachem said:What an assenine remark.
I agree. What a stupid remark.
I think people making a big deal about SUVs are just flat out hypocritical. A couple of points...
1) Plastics are a petroleum product. Can the enviromentalists live without plastics?
2) Where does natural gas come from? The same place oil comes from! You would still need to drill for it. Yet the enviromentalist love NG powerplants but refuse to allow drilling. Explain that one.
3) Who are the first ones to scream about high gas prices? Enviromentalists. Who are the ones that want high gas prices? Enviromentalists. Why? When gas prices are high, the consumption of gas is reduced.
4) Lastly, a point someone has already made. The activists drive their hybrid vehicles to a 4000 sq ft or larger home with multiple air conditioning units then take a quick jaunt out on their private jet (burning more fuel than an SUV would in a year) to have lunch in say the Hamptons. Then they have the nerve to lecture us on fuel efficiency. Point made.
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Separately, I read a report not too long ago that claimed oil was a renewable resource. The evidence was an abandoned empty oil site years ago now has oil in it again. Oil may not be as finite as some would have everyone believe.
pdoel
New member
Heh heh. SO nice to see this thread! I'm on a couple different forums. www.vwvortex.com and www.newbeetle.org. It's AMAZING how many "SUV Bashing" threads get created.
I understand "some" of their concerns. However, most of these people are complete hypocrits. Their biggest complaints are that SUVs weigh too much, use too much gas, are unsafe, sit up too high, etc.
Yet, they talk non-stop about modding their cars to make them faster, lower, etc. These tiny little VWs are getting 20-25mpg. That's NOTHING to be excited about.
I can post fact after fact after fact, and it means nothing. I just wish they'd realize their hatred of SUVs is more based on emotion, than it is any valid reasoning.
I understand "some" of their concerns. However, most of these people are complete hypocrits. Their biggest complaints are that SUVs weigh too much, use too much gas, are unsafe, sit up too high, etc.
Yet, they talk non-stop about modding their cars to make them faster, lower, etc. These tiny little VWs are getting 20-25mpg. That's NOTHING to be excited about.
I can post fact after fact after fact, and it means nothing. I just wish they'd realize their hatred of SUVs is more based on emotion, than it is any valid reasoning.
BigDogMoney
New member
Dman, I agreed with most of your points except for that oil was a renewable energy source. Aside from the North Sea, and a lesser extent the Gulf of Mexico, there hasn't been any major new discoveries of oil in the past 30 years. The same wells that are pumping out oil now in the Middle East were in operation in the early 70s. This month's National Geographic has an article about oil, and how eventually production won't be able to keep up with demand. All of the "mother load" oil fields have already been found, and production of these fields may have already peaked. Oil is still plentiful, but in another decade or so we may be seeing our first oil shortage.
dman90012 said:
Good discussion going on here. Dman- I’d like to address your points if you don’t mind.
1) Exactly, plastics are one of the most important uses of crude oil, coal, and natural gas. Another important factor is that, for the most part, they are as you said, reclaimable and recyclable. We all would have a tough time living without plastics. What happens to plastic manufacturing when all those fossil fuels are gone, due to burning.
2) The primary reason for natural gas power plants is that they are cleaner burning, leaving little residue (it was once a cheaper fuel too). It is a finite resource. It is also very dangerous to transport in a liquefied state. They burn off the stuff in the Middle East just because of that hazard. Those LNG tankers are floating bombs that could take out a large city. Think of the terrorism potential.
3) Why is environmentalist a dirty word with some people? It seems that today you are “labeled” for your beliefs and can be only one of just two kinds of human beings, either liberal or conservative? Are there no shades of gray, or room for moderate thinkers? Must we all be extremists? Some of us do not want to see the U.S. laid bare and/or polluted like some of the wastelands that you can readily find in other parts of the world. What is wrong with leaving something for the next generations to come, and not just see how much we can consume with a selfish and self-indulgent attitude?
4) Why is it all or nothing? Isn’t it possible to use natural resources in moderation with intelligence, and still enjoy the fruits the Earth has to offer us?
When you burn oil, coal, or natural gas it is gone, not renewable. If you use those products for plastics, lubrication, etc. it can be reclaimed and recycled (for the most part) and is thus renewable. We must find alternatives sources of energy such as solar (thermal and photo-voltaic), wind, fusion, and using hydrogen as a fuel to name a few, in place of the wasteful and unwise burning of fossil fuels, which are finite and polluting in nature. Oil is too valuable a resource to be sending it up in smoke. We have most of the technology already in place to use some of those alternative energy sources, but political and corporate greed are working against it.
The problem is bigger than just SUV use. It’s part and parcel of a conspicuous consuming mind-set that we’re collectively guilty of. In the very near future, when China comes fully online, as BigDogMoney said, we will soon be seeing a genuine oil shortage. There will still be SUV’s, 5000 square foot houses, private planes, etc., but only for the rich...not for the average consumer.
BigDogMoney said:
Well the article I read pointed to an 'odd occurence'. I don't think we can conclude that oil is renewable just from that observation.
Regardless, how can the world conclude that all the major oil finds are found when oil companies are restricted in exploration drilling? Let's see, no drilling in Alaska, off-shore, government lands, etc. In other words, how would you know how much is there if you don't go and see?
I can see at some point oil will cease to exist but by that time an alternative energy source will be economically viable to take over. Many alternative energy options are viable but they just plain cost too much.
If they offered a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle with the same size, performance, convenience and safety as my 4Runner without costing $500,000, I would consider it. It would make me very happy to take our money out of the Middle East.
biglatka said:
I consider myself a conservationist. I try not to use more than I need and not to waste resources.
I use the word enviromentalist in a negative conotation because the public figures that speak for the enviromentalist causes are extremists.
They want low gas prices yet restrict any exploration. We've tried that in the 70s. Remember the gas lines? Low price controls and limited supply result in NO SUPPLY. They argue for alternative energy (in itself and good thing) but do not tell you how much more you would have to pay relative to fossil fuels.
Further, on a different enviromental subject, they put legislation to vote for 'Clean Water' every election cycle amounting millions of dollars of state debt (and in CA we really don't need any more). Answer this. If the water is safe to drink now, how much 'cleaner' does it have to be? If they are so concerned, why don't they distill their water giving them pure water (clean enough?)? Point is, a lot of what they are arguing for is wasting limited government resources. And you know who gets stuck with the bill....
As far as China is concerned, watch out. Gas prices are heading higher and there is nothing any politician (conservative or liberal) can do about it. Unless of course they allow more exploration and maybe find another large supply but I won't hold my breath.
bamachem said:What an assenine remark.
What are you stupid? You think that the military is big enough even with the "reserves" to continue to cover all of the war efforts over sea's? Do you think that most of these national guard/reservists are going to stay in after their enlistments are up? Right :flipoff: Not many citizens can afford to take the pay cut and leave their families for a year at a time, with the knowledge that this will continue to happen on a continual basis. After fighting for the Iraq citizens that now try to kill our soldiers I doubt it. I served my country in the USMC before you were probably born (Vietnam). I'm telling you right now that after this election, you will see the draft return, it will be required, if we want to continue to spread our democratic form of government throughout the world "Bush's" vision. Now if Kerry is elected I doubt if there will be a draft. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for Kerry. My time in the Marine Corp was good for me. Sounds like it would be good for you :moon:
BigDogMoney
New member
Pitbull, bringing back conscription would be political suicide for any would-be president. This "war", or occupation, or nation building effort - or however you want to label our presence in Iraq - is unpopular, and bringing the draft back to supply more troops to an operation that the current president couldn't even sell is highly unlikely.
Companies have scoured the Earth in search for oil, and most of the economically viable wells have been found. The oil in Alaska would slightly lessen our dependency on foreign oil. The oil located in the Gulf of Mexico would make the most impact for the US, but it's not much in relation to the amount of oil in the Middle East. Oil is already being pumped out of The Gulf. The bottom line is that the oil that the US has won't make a whole lot of difference in the long-run, at least not at our current rate of consumption.
Anyway, your arguements are terrible Pitbull. Stick to SUV'ing.
Companies have scoured the Earth in search for oil, and most of the economically viable wells have been found. The oil in Alaska would slightly lessen our dependency on foreign oil. The oil located in the Gulf of Mexico would make the most impact for the US, but it's not much in relation to the amount of oil in the Middle East. Oil is already being pumped out of The Gulf. The bottom line is that the oil that the US has won't make a whole lot of difference in the long-run, at least not at our current rate of consumption.
Anyway, your arguements are terrible Pitbull. Stick to SUV'ing.
lildevil23
New member
Too political a debate
Conscription/draft/prohibition;we've been through all this and more.Pros & cons are but natural for any issues. Being different individuals,no two people will ever have the exact same view on any issue,if they did..its just the case of the mightier getting its right of way!!
Nation building et al should be a collabrative effort not a unilateral macho sadistic vision!!:wtf: No man is an island..isnt that what somebody said?? Am a democrat till i earn my first million!! Always been a self serving /conceited/selfish yuppie..if anybody cant digest it..take a crap!!
Conservationalist/SUV bashers..i got the 4Runner..bcos I can afford it..my hard earned money..and as much as I can take my tax consultant advising me on how to offset my gains with the losses for his consultation fees..i can take SUV critics or any other self propogand/drum beating machine for their self concious "pat on their back" effort....
I will anyday get a hybrid, when the intended vehicle appeals to me. If a 4R comes with a hybrid engine..i would go for it in a heartbeat..as a matter of fact ..am waiting for the market to test the RX330h..and then get myslf that one..if ford can get a hybrid SUV on the road..toyota will not be far behind...will trade in my current 4R for the hybrid version..
SO CRUCIFY ME!! for all that i have said..i know i am going to hell..and ur contradictory/angry views aint gonna make a difference...
:bowdown::satan:
Conscription/draft/prohibition;we've been through all this and more.Pros & cons are but natural for any issues. Being different individuals,no two people will ever have the exact same view on any issue,if they did..its just the case of the mightier getting its right of way!!
Nation building et al should be a collabrative effort not a unilateral macho sadistic vision!!:wtf: No man is an island..isnt that what somebody said?? Am a democrat till i earn my first million!! Always been a self serving /conceited/selfish yuppie..if anybody cant digest it..take a crap!!
Conservationalist/SUV bashers..i got the 4Runner..bcos I can afford it..my hard earned money..and as much as I can take my tax consultant advising me on how to offset my gains with the losses for his consultation fees..i can take SUV critics or any other self propogand/drum beating machine for their self concious "pat on their back" effort....
I will anyday get a hybrid, when the intended vehicle appeals to me. If a 4R comes with a hybrid engine..i would go for it in a heartbeat..as a matter of fact ..am waiting for the market to test the RX330h..and then get myslf that one..if ford can get a hybrid SUV on the road..toyota will not be far behind...will trade in my current 4R for the hybrid version..
SO CRUCIFY ME!! for all that i have said..i know i am going to hell..and ur contradictory/angry views aint gonna make a difference...
:bowdown::satan:
bluewolf
New member
dman90012 said:
I believe that we currently have the technology to start the "phase-out" of the gas engine and begin mass-producing an acceptable if not equally-powerful alternative such as hydrogen fuel cell, gyroscopic-kinetic, whatever. I think the problem is not so much that the technology has not been perfected enough or can not be made affordable, but that there are still literally hundreds of trillions of dollars to be made in petroleum. Oil companies are unspeakably powerful... even more-so than we obviously know. I believe they collectively have the power to bring a nation to it's knees if threatened enough... rest assured they will not be de-throned any time soon. A country such as ours is at their mercy, not the other way around. Any sizeable campaign to begin elimination of the gasoline engine would be met with tremendous resistance from some very powerful entities. I believe that even a sizeable effort to become much more self-reliant/sufficient (via Alaska or the Gulf) would result in a political "whipping". An effort to eliminate our dependency upon them entirely would result in war.
lildevil23
New member
bluewolf said:
And with "leaders" like Cheney who holds closed door "executively privilaged" meetings with folks from the Petro/Industrial circles to map out our energy policy..
WOW..arent a majority of us really smart!!
BigDogMoney said:
Hey Bigdogmoney, check it out. It's already happening and if it is happening now then after the election with 4 years to get over the political impact it will be a done deal. Bottomline we can't have a military the size that it needs to be without a draft. If you are within this age range then you need to grab your butt with both hands because here it comes.
http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2003/S89/default.asp
You know they said the samething during Vietnam, but they kept drafting them.
