This is going to sound crazy but...

[BigNuge]

How many of you are going without Health Insurance (intentionally)?

Im not talking about low income troubles. I have a good job, and make good money. Im talking about folks (especially self employed) that intentionally choose to just pay their medical bills cash/payment style.

Let me start by saying that I understand the risks. If there is a large medical issue I know the bills can climb into the 10's and 100's of thousands. Obviously we would all like to be protected from that sort of liability, but at what cost?

My Health Insurance premiums are headed up again. After this next cycle I'll be paying upwards of $1,000/month for a high deductible plan (Myself, My Wife, and my Son). My deductibles are $2,500/person annually, with co-insurance/coverage limitations as well. I have been paying the premium, and every other expense thereto, for 2 years now. Premium & other costs have me out just shy of $16,000 just last year alone....

It has me thinking, if I'm paying out of pocket for everything now, why not just drop the insurance and pay for everything cash (and just pay the Communist Obama penalty)?? Saving $12-$20k (out of pocket!!!) annually can cover a lot of issues (typical, non serious). If the unfortunate happens and I get hit with a $10-$20-$50k bill then I work out a payment plan for it. I'd rather pay for services rendered.

Again, I know medical bills can add up quickly, and i'm not trying to marginalize that fact. I am simply exploring the idea of going cash payment on all Doctor visits/scripts/dental...and dealing with the big stuff as it happens. I know people who do this because they simply can't afford insurance, and they just roll with the punches as far as making an agreeable arrangement with the doctors office/hospital. And I haven't even brought up the fact that most doctors offices & hospitals offer discounts if you are paying directly.

Time to think outside the box...

 

[Lineman]

To each his own. There are major risks to decide on your idea. You just never know what could happen.

I'm not a fan of your idea that you'd take a payment plan on a potential $50K bill. You mean like a mortgage loan or car plan installment type. You must realize this would include interest. I don't like the idea of being in debt for my life or something that saved my life.

I'd rather keep paying for myself and family's insurance for peace of mind. If you, you wife or son get diagnosed with a life threatening illness. How would you pay for it? Then you just might like the "Communist Obama Penalty" you referred to.

 

[nevada]

To each his own. There are major risks to decide on your idea. You just never know what could happen.

I'm not a fan of your idea that you'd take a payment plan on a potential $50K bill. You mean like a mortgage loan or car plan installment type. You must realize this would include interest. I don't like the idea of being in debt for my life or something that saved my life.

I'd rather keep paying for myself and family's insurance for peace of mind. If you, you wife or son get diagnosed with a life threatening illness. How would you pay for it? Then you just might like the "Communist Obama Penalty" you referred to.

but you are ok with that debt for the rest of your life, "just because"?
you're ok paying for something that hasn't happened yet, but not Ok to pay for it after it does?

 

[BigNuge]

To each his own. There are major risks to decide on your idea. You just never know what could happen.

I'm not a fan of your idea that you'd take a payment plan on a potential $50K bill. You mean like a mortgage loan or car plan installment type. You must realize this would include interest. I don't like the idea of being in debt for my life or something that saved my life.

I'd rather keep paying for myself and family's insurance for peace of mind. If you, you wife or son get diagnosed with a life threatening illness. How would you pay for it? Then you just might like the "Communist Obama Penalty" you referred to.

If I max out my deductible, add my annual premium, I'm at just shy of $20k. Id rather be in control of my own money thanks. Health Insurance works when the premium is proportional to the annual benefit. If I save the minimum (my premium only, I'm likely to save more) then I save $12k annually. I can count on spending $2k on Dr' visits and such, that leaves me with $10k annually. Have 2 or 3 quiet years, thats $20-$30k in an "oh $hit" fund. Doing the smart thing with that $$ and putting it away for emergencies is much better for the individual. If you are not good with managing your own money then sure, you need the government, or insurance company to guide you around by the nose.

Again, I understand the risk, and I know people who simply pay their bills cash. The hospitals and Dr's offices really work with these folks. Sometimes offering as much as %70 discount if paying directly!!

I used to be one of those people who thought that going without Health Insurance was crazy talk. Now, it can no longer be dismissed so easily.

 

[BigNuge]

but you are ok with that debt for the rest of your life, "just because"?
you're ok paying for something that hasn't happened yet, but not Ok to pay for it after it does?

Great point!

Wouldn't you rather pay for services rendered, rather then "maybe services rendered someday....maybe"? If the bill get sbig then deal with it. The hospitals and Dr's offices will work with you because you are actually making an effort to pay!!

 

[txclimber]

As someone who pays over $1000/month in premiums I understand your thinking, however I believe you may be a little bit short sighted. Let me elaborate and try not to offend anyone:

As you state you are "aware" of the risks, but I think you're vastly underestimating these risks. In December my son was born 2 months premature and in the ensuing 8 months medical bills have totaled over $1,000,000. I'm a working man. That figure would ruin my family.

Two years ago, I broke my leg. $80,000. Don't have that laying around either. Y

A routine trip to the pediatrician $2,000. Check up for you $1000. Wife's lady parts, $3000. Have you ever looked closely at these bills?

You may be vastly overestimating your ability to "self-pay". If that is the case here's what happens:

1) You have a heavy incentive not to have regular health care and put off minor problems until they become big ones.

2) If something catastrophic happens and you aren't Daddy Warbucks, you become the guy sucking off of that "Communist Teat" that you're bashing in your original post. You're not ponying up a million dollars, you can't. So what happens is the hospital rolls the cost of your irresponsibility into the charges that the rest of us have to pay which is what creates these ridiculously high rates to begin with.

The system sucks I agree, but you can only roll the dice so long. Sad part is you're not just risking your well being but all of ours, because we have to pay, either through higher medical bills directly, or higher premiums. If everyone pulled their own it wouldn't be this way. What you are suggesting is that you're fed up and you're not pulling anymore.

 

[BigNuge]

As someone who pays over $1000/month in premiums I understand your thinking, however I believe you may be a little bit short sighted. Let me elaborate and try not to offend anyone:

As you state you are "aware" of the risks, but I think you're vastly underestimating these risks. In December my son was born 2 months premature and in the ensuing 8 months medical bills have totaled over $1,000,000. I'm a working man. That figure would ruin my family.

Two years ago, I broke my leg. $80,000. Don't have that laying around either. Y

A routine trip to the pediatrician $2,000. Check up for you $1000. Wife's lady parts, $3000. Have you ever looked closely at these bills?

You may be vastly overestimating your ability to "self-pay". If that is the case here's what happens:

1) You have a heavy incentive not to have regular health care and put off minor problems until they become big ones.

2) If something catastrophic happens and you aren't Daddy Warbucks, you become the guy sucking off of that "Communist Teat" that you're bashing in your original post. You're not ponying up a million dollars, you can't. So what happens is the hospital rolls the cost of your irresponsibility into the charges that the rest of us have to pay which is what creates these ridiculously high rates to begin with.

The system sucks I agree, but you can only roll the dice so long. Sad part is you're not just risking your well being but all of ours, because we have to pay, either through higher medical bills directly, or higher premiums. If everyone pulled their own it wouldn't be this way. What you are suggesting is that you're fed up and you're not pulling anymore.

I look at every single medical bill that comes into my house. Im not sure what pediatrician you're going to, but my son sees one locally. Because my deductible is so high, I pay the bills out of pocket. He is now 4, and I have paid every single expense out of pocket. Not one appointment was $2000k+ except for his birth (which was $9k).

I'm not looking to argue each others medical bills. I'm also not going to challenge your numbers. You can make those up all day. My current insurance has a "lifetime benefit" of $1,000,000.00...given your number above, guess I'd be up shits creek anyway...right??

I have an Uncle that got laid off 4 years ago. Since then his back has gone to $hit (he is in his mid 50's and was born with sever scoliosis). His back X-ray looks like a cartoon gag. Anyway, he just went to the ER 2 months ago (nothing too major, it was an upper GI issue). Bill came out to just shy of $2k. A couple of phone calls and what not....he cut a check for half and its paid.

The problem isn't people like him who are making arrangements and paying, its the ones with nothing, going as often as they wish, paying nothing....they have nothing to lose. Obamacare isn't helping anyone but the insurance companies and the dead broke who have not bit of concern to pay for their own care.

Know this, if I pay, I am responsible. And I pay. All Im looking to do is cut out the middle man and pay direct.

 

[KidVermicious]

Not crazy. Crazy is spending your entire life buying yachts for insurance executives and diamonds for their wives and thinking you're somehow protecting yourself. Insurance is a racket by definition, and I think you're smart to question the line the insurance companies peddle.

You can absolutely do without all that excess insurance, if you're smart about it (and it sounds like you would be). Good luck with it.

 

[txclimber]

Go back and review the pediatrician bills from any visit involving vaccinations. Those puppies aren't cheap. Or would you rather skip those too. Figure if the rest of us are vaccinated you probably don't need to be because of the concept of "herd immunity"?

You say you pay, but you can't address the "What if". You would never pay off an 6 figure bill, much less a 7 figure one. Then what, leave it for your kid? Or turn to the government? Or as you suggest, "work it out with the hospital".

Your policy lifetime cap? Uh better check that too. As of 2014 that's not a real thing. No more cancelations and no pre-existing conditions.

Look man, I feel your frustration but your logic just doesn't add up.

Why don't you cancel your car insurance while your at it. Using your logic over the last 25 years I've been driving accident and claim free I would have saved up like $20,000. That's enough to replace my ride I should be good even if I have to pay a few tickets along the way.

 

[BigNuge]

Go back and review the pediatrician bills from any visit involving vaccinations. Those puppies aren't cheap. Or would you rather skip those too. Figure if the rest of us are vaccinated you probably don't need to be because of the concept of "herd immunity"?

You say you pay, but you can't address the "What if". You would never pay off an 6 figure bill, much less a 7 figure one. Then what, leave it for your kid? Or turn to the government? Or as you suggest, "work it out with the hospital".

Your policy lifetime cap? Uh better check that too. As of 2014 that's not a real thing. No more cancelations and no pre-existing conditions.

Look man, I feel your frustration but your logic just doesn't add up.

Why don't you cancel your car insurance while your at it. Using your logic over the last 25 years I've been driving accident and claim free I would have saved up like $20,000. That's enough to replace my ride I should be good even if I have to pay a few tickets along the way.

I get what you're trying to say. and i am not necessarily disagreeing.

I am (thinking about) risking my fiscal well-being by paying for services directly, and I know that.

Again, I have looked at the bills... with a $7,500/year total deductible I have to pay them all still!!!

I'd be the first person to line up and buy a catastrophic coverage policy if those weren't made illegal. It is the only type of insurance that makes sense (Health Insurance).

I pay the premium and deductibles that I pay because of the millions who don't give a damn...and don't even troy t pay.

Bottom line, we can play the "what if" game till the cows come home. At the end of the day it is the atmosphere of today that pushes these considerations to the surface. If we weren't consistently hauled to the bottom by the dead weight of the country then I think we would still have affordable plans.

Me (a working man as well) coming out of pocket to the tune of $12-$20k (premiums and deductibles) is deplorable. Health insurance is my second highest monthly expenditure, only behind my mortgage.

 

[txclimber]

Me (a working man as well) coming out of pocket to the tune of $12-$20k (premiums and deductibles) is deplorable. Health insurance is my second highest monthly expenditure, only behind my mortgage.

Agreed. I think what is important to remember here is that those are also the two most important things we need. A safe place and our health. We can expect to pay for these things.

I think you also nailed it when you stated that the reason our premiums are so high is because of all the leaches that pay nothing. I'm just trying to point out that you are risking becoming one of those leaches, even if it's not intended.

In the catastrophic event it's obvious because it's a huge figure that could never be repaid. But it may not be so obvious each other time. Each time you pay out of pocket and get that reduced rate, it is recouped by the hospital or Dr.'s by overcharging the insurance companies, further contributing to the skyrocketing premiums. Work out a "deal" with the billing folks and this discounted rate is even further from what the actual expense that the hospital incurred. Guess what? They get that back by overcharging the insurance companies too.

Even excluding the "What if" (I think we agree here too), you may not realize that, as I've described above, when you self pay and negotiate reduced rates you are reaching into the wallets of others, whether you realize it or not.

 

[nevada]

Agreed. I think what is important to remember here is that those are also the two most important things we need. A safe place and our health. We can expect to pay for these things.

I think you also nailed it when you stated that the reason our premiums are so high is because of all the leaches that pay nothing. I'm just trying to point out that you are risking becoming one of those leaches, even if it's not intended.

In the catastrophic event it's obvious because it's a huge figure that could never be repaid. But it may not be so obvious each other time. Each time you pay out of pocket and get that reduced rate, it is recouped by the hospital or Dr.'s by overcharging the insurance companies, further contributing to the skyrocketing premiums. Work out a "deal" with the billing folks and this discounted rate is even further from what the actual expense that the hospital incurred. Guess what? They get that back by overcharging the insurance companies too.

Even excluding the "What if" (I think we agree here too), you may not realize that, as I've described above, when you self pay and negotiate reduced rates you are reaching into the wallets of others, whether you realize it or not.

not a chance. insurance is THE reason medical bills are so high. they charge it because they CAN.

almost always cash pay is cheaper than what is billed to the insurance.

also, there is no way an overnight stay in the hospital is worth $10k, but that is what they charge for JUST the use of the room. horseshit. actual expense my ass.

 

[txclimber]

not a chance. insurance is THE reason medical bills are so high. they charge it because they CAN.

almost always cash pay is cheaper than what is billed to the insurance.

also, there is no way an overnight stay in the hospital is worth $10k, but that is what they charge for JUST the use of the room. horseshit. actual expense my ass.

You would be correct if everyone was paying their own. What you are neglecting to factor in is that paying patients, self-pay or insured, are paying for all the jerks that pay nothing. So you are right an overnight stay doesn't cost $10k, but if you have to pay for the 10 other folks that don't THOSE are the hospitals incurred expenses. They're gonna get their money.

All I'm stating is that insurance companies pay a higher percentage of the costs left unpaid by the low-lifes.

 

[BigNuge]

You would be correct if everyone was paying their own. What you are neglecting to factor in is that paying patients, self-pay or insured, are paying for all the jerks that pay nothing. So you are right an overnight stay doesn't cost $10k, but if you have to pay for the 10 other folks that don't THOSE are the hospitals incurred expenses. They're gonna get their money.

All I'm stating is that insurance companies pay a higher percentage of the costs left unpaid by the low-lifes.

When we had our son, my wife needed a heat pack for her back. The nurse retuned with one of these chemical heat wrap/pack things that you wear around your mid section, and focuses heat on the lower back.

You can buy them at the drug store for $10 for a 3 pack. The Hospital charged $75 for that one heat pack.

We will always be brought back to bearing the burden of those who do not pay, and do not care to pay.

I, for one, am beyond tired of pulling for all the welfare leaches of this country. If me having to commit to paying a magical bill for the rest of my days so I can get some relief then maybe thats the thing to do.

hwell:

 

[Net4n6]

Talking about medical insurance, my head :ybrick: I am paying $1800/month with $6500 annual deductible for a family of 4. My copay is $50 to see the doctor/specialist.

 

[Lineman]

but you are ok with that debt for the rest of your life, "just because"?
you're ok paying for something that hasn't happened yet, but not Ok to pay for it after it does?

How so? How is paying medical insurance, car insurance, life insurance, home owners ins, paying a debt for the rest of your life. These are not debts. They are there to offer protection because most of the country can't afford if something did happen.

A debt is, mortgage, car loan, credit card, etc. Buying stuff you really can't afford.

The reason most insurance is mandatory is 50% of American's don't have $10K in savings.

I don't like paying insurance but I do. I don't have any debt and can afford to pay a new car if it was destroyed. But I don't exactly have $500K lying around to replace or repair my house or $1M if me or the family have a medical issue.

 

[Lineman]

Talking about medical insurance, my head :ybrick: I am paying $1800/month with $6500 annual deductible for a family of 4. My copay is $50 to see the doctor/specialist.

Those kind of numbers are nuts. Luckily I have Tricare which is around $800 a year.

 

[nevada]

How so? How is paying medical insurance, car insurance, life insurance, home owners ins, paying a debt for the rest of your life. These are not debts. They are there to offer protection because most of the country can't afford if something did happen.

A debt is, mortgage, car loan, credit card, etc. Buying stuff you really can't afford.

The reason most insurance is mandatory is 50% of American's don't have $10K in savings.

I don't like paying insurance but I do. I don't have any debt and can afford to pay a new car if it was destroyed. But I don't exactly have $500K lying around to replace or repair my house or $1M if me or the family have a medical issue.

what's the difference? they ARE a debt if you insist on paying them. it is still a payment towards something that hasn't even happened.

 

[hikenbike]

Yet to see anyone respond to this who actually foregoes health insurance intentionally as was originally asked......but it's early yet. If we find one, I'd love to hear their line of thinking. Might be easier to find Bigfoot though.

 

[txclimber]

I think we can all agree the system is messed up. We just have differing opinions on whom to blame.

The way I see it: Dr.'s overpay for education and subsequent overpriced malpractice policies, they recover this by overcharging the hospitals, they get theirs by over charging the insurance companies (or self-pay folks), plus they have to tack on an added amount to cover all of the end users who pay nothing.

It's an insidious game of kick the can and we as individuals have to fund it, either through high insurance premiums or higher medical bills. It's only human nature to want to blame the shyster who is next to you in the bullshit chain (the insurance company) but ultimately the whole system is whack and their rising rates are a result of this NOT the cause. By rolling the dice and going without the protection of insurance your only removing a layer of insulation that you have from the whole mess, even if it is an expensive one. This option may be attractive, but very risky. Perhaps for the single twenty year olds out there, but a family man with a wife and kids most likely knows not to tempt fate.

I hope I haven't ruffled anyone's feathers too much, I love a spirited debate!