TMT Front Bumper - BUYER BEWARE

[MTN4RNR]

Don't think there is much there unique enough to be patent worthy.

I get that some may not emotionally like this kind of business but it's nothing new and certainly not limited to any industry. It's been going on since the dawn of time and will always be with us. Hell, ford buys GM vehicles to tear them down to individual bolts. Anything good that is not covered by a patent is copied.

Nope. Nothing new or unique to the fab industry. And there is nothing wrong with competition within the market, it is just unfortunate when you see a good shop being undercut quite bluntly.

 

[e60ral]

Everyone has their own preference. There are other fabricators with other bumpers they have designed without that feature. That’s not the issue here.

the first part of my post was the most relevant, i think the majority of people here were okay with gobi racks being copied and got mad when gobi defended their design patent

does relentless even have a design patent?

Don't think there is much there unique enough to be patent worthy.
[...]

it would be an ornamental design patent, not a utility patent, so it would be patentable. they could have patented the design, but since they chose not to all they can do is compete on price/quality/reputation/etc...

 

[SouthernSS]

Southern Style came first?......

I was beginning to think people forgot we started this product years ago. There is nothing new under the sun, though. First it was us, then a surprisingly similar product from C4 fab, then another, then another. You can tell who is "inspired" by who from company to company. It is unfortunate, though, when a company has direct access to your product. It happened to us as well.

I believe the Relentless Sting Ray was a novel design using the same concept we pioneered and have never had issue with it. They accomplished the same goal using a different design. This product from TMT is a copy. Lets call a spade a spade.

Getting a design patent, which is all this really is applicable for, is ridiculously expensive. Its something like 12-15k per design. Like stated though, if the original design is tweaked a bit, they can legally say they have an original, doing an end around the patent. Makes it all pointless really.

The only realistic thing you can do as a company is to bust ass and provide the best damn product you can as quickly as possible. We do that. I think Relentless does that as well. They will be fine.

 

[wfo9]

Since everyone is putting out opinions... I'll play

First, they all copied the SSO design. so I think fingers are turned right back if that is the point of this post.

Secondly, it appears to be a south american company that does not even sell in the US. So it seems to be no new competition for the poor hard working US shop from what I can see.

Finally, this is normal business practice. It's not illegal to buy a product and learn from the design. Every major auto mfg (for example) buys other mfgs cars and takes them apart to learn. It's just smart business.

Bottom line. who cares. Consumers will buy the best product value.. and in this case it is a no op.

Don't worry about the competition.. just build a good quality product and the rest will follow. There is no way to really get a leg up when it comes to these small scale fabrication jobs.. It's very labor and craftsmen intensive... not easy money. I've done my fair share of fabrication.. and you could not pay me to do it for a living.

 

[MTN4RNR]

I was beginning to think people forgot we started this product years ago. There is nothing new under the sun, though. First it was us, then a surprisingly similar product from C4 fab, then another, then another. You can tell who is "inspired" by who from company to company. It is unfortunate, though, when a company has direct access to your product. It happened to us as well.

I believe the Relentless Sting Ray was a novel design using the same concept we pioneered and have never had issue with it. They accomplished the same goal using a different design. This product from TMT is a copy. Lets call a spade a spade.

Getting a design patent, which is all this really is applicable for, is ridiculously expensive. Its something like 12-15k per design. Like stated though, if the original design is tweaked a bit, they can legally say they have an original, doing an end around the patent. Makes it all pointless really.

The only realistic thing you can do as a company is to bust ass and provide the best damn product you can as quickly as possible. We do that. I think Relentless does that as well. They will be fine.

Thanks for the reply. It’s good to hear from another fabrication shop to enlighten us on the challenges of patents and product infringement. I know that you guys pioneered the “winch plate” bumper design, but was unaware that you faced similar issues with product copying. But you are absolutely right, the quality of the product will determine who wins and loses in the end. You all have proven that with your original design, and now your updated aluminum version with Hefty. Cheers.

 

[MTN4RNR]

Since everyone is putting out opinions... I'll play

First, they all copied the SSO design. so I think fingers are turned right back if that is the point of this post.

Secondly, it appears to be a south american company that does not even sell in the US. So it seems to be no new competition for the poor hard working US shop from what I can see.

Finally, this is normal business practice. It's not illegal to buy a product and learn from the design. Every major auto mfg (for example) buys other mfgs cars and takes them apart to learn. It's just smart business.

Bottom line. who cares. Consumers will buy the best product value.. and in this case it is a no op.

Don't worry about the competition.. just build a good quality product and the rest will follow. There is no way to really get a leg up when it comes to these small scale fabrication jobs.. It's very labor and craftsmen intensive... not easy money. I've done my fair share of fabrication.. and you could not pay me to do it for a living.

You’re right, SSO pioneered the first design concept with their own unique product and others followed with versions of the same concept. Some of them were close in design and fabrication (which falls under the same scrutiny as the Relentless TMT deal) and others designed their own unique version of the same concept, as SSO mentioned in their comment above. Had I been involved in the 4Runner community at the time, who knows, I might have posted the same post on behalf of SSO.

They are being sold state side. There is a group buy currently on this forum for the product. So it’s now a direct competitor.

You’re correct, it’s not illegal to do what they did. I never said it was. I feel like it’s a crappy business model. And while I do understand that it’s nothing new, in the example you have with major auto manufacturers you’re talking about multi million dollar corporations who have that kind of interbrand “research” built into their bottom line. They can afford that kind of competition. This is a small business and its entirely different. You even mentioned above that you understand that it’s very labor and craftsman intensive. So here I am just providing the information to the forum about a product and the business who is building it, ultimately to let someone make an informed decision on who they want to support when they purchase. I gain nothing here.

While there isn’t anything wrong with competition within the same market, it should be a competition on design craftsmanship and build quality, not one where someone puts the time and effort into developing a product only to have the design ripped off and turned around in a very blatant way.

 

[e60ral]

Its something like 12-15k per design. Like stated though, if the original design is tweaked a bit, they can legally say they have an original, doing an end around the patent. Makes it all pointless really.

an ornamental design patent with an attorney and artwork (you could get away with 1 image for a bumper) should cost less than $3k. If there are issues you have to respond to maybe up to $5k

You could also submit a provisional patent which kind of stops the clock for 12 months, and then decide if its worth submitting a full patent depending on how popular your product is. That would probably cost about $1500 for someone else to file for you, although for something this simple and straightforward at that point its probably worth just getting a design patent.

it may not be by accident that TMT waited until at least 12 months after relentless published their bumper to make a copy (if you publish you have 12 months to patent)

 

[ahbot]

It's a crappy way to do business but it happens all the time. As a business owner, I know for a fact that people steal my crap all the time. You can't really do anything about it because if they tweak the design just a little bit, they'll get away with it. I know from experience. I stay focus on what I'm doing and how I can do it better than anyone else. It's paid off for me.

I support Relentless Fab because they're awesome to deal with and I like their design. I'm not a fan of TMT which in my eyes stands for "The Money Team". I'm sure someone will steal their 5th Gen Full Size replacement bumper in the future. They just have to be prepared for it.

 

[MTN4RNR]

It's a crappy way to do business but it happens all the time. As a business owner, I know for a fact that people steal my crap all the time. You can't really do anything about it because if they tweak the design just a little bit, they'll get away with it. I know from experience. I stay focus on what I'm doing and how I can do it better than anyone else. It's paid off for me.

I support Relentless Fab because they're awesome to deal with and I like their design. I'm not a fan of TMT which in my eyes stands for "The Money Team". I'm sure someone will steal their 5th Gen Full Size replacement bumper in the future. They just have to be prepared for it.

Yep. You’re right. There isn’t much that they can do to stop others from taking their designs. The best thing I feel we can do as a community is support the companies that work hard to develop great products for our platform. That’s what this is all about :thumb3:

 

[ahbot]

Yep. You’re right. There isn’t much that they can do to stop others from taking their designs. The best thing I feel we can do as a community is support the companies that work hard to develop great products for our platform. That’s what this is all about :thumb3:

Yeah. It's tough but Relentless Fab will be doing just fine. They're awesome to deal with. I prefer handmade staff from good ole american guys.

 

[MTN4RNR]

Yeah. It's tough but Relentless Fab will be doing just fine. They're awesome to deal with. I prefer handmade staff from good ole american guys.

Yep, they’ll be just fine

 

[Omar RVA]

I don’t post here often at all anymore - mostly just lurk. But I’m curious.

Other than the idea that this Venezuelan company purchased the Relentless Fab bumper for the sake of copying it, they clearly changed the design enough to be “different.” I’m putting different in quotes because the changes I see (i.e. none behind the exterior of the bumper) look as substantive as the changes between any of the other similar bumpers mentioned earlier in this thread. As has already been noted, SSO had the original and even then, that design was drawn up by an unaffliated member before SSO made that design a reality (if my memory serves correctly).

I guess what I’m asking is I don’t see how this is any more egregious than what two other companies did with SSO’s bumper. Or what countless wheel companies do to each other. Or RTIC did to yeti...and the list can go on. If it is, I was hoping for it to be explained. Is it shitty? Sure. But stopping the finger pointing at the Venezuelan company seems irrational. Or maybe I’ve just got a really untrained eye for these things.

OA

 

[Falcon21]

Thanks for the reply. It’s good to hear from another fabrication shop to enlighten us on the challenges of patents and product infringement. I know that you guys pioneered the “winch plate” bumper design, but was unaware that you faced similar issues with product copying. But you are absolutely right, the quality of the product will determine who wins and loses in the end. You all have proven that with your original design, and now your updated aluminum version with Hefty. Cheers.

I think it's worth calling out that last part about Hefty again. They did the right thing and didn't steal a design but instead worked with the original designer to make an aluminum version of the product. That shows integrity and they are on my list of companies I'd give my business to as a result.

 

[MTN4RNR]

I don’t post here often at all anymore - mostly just lurk. But I’m curious.

Other than the idea that this Venezuelan company purchased the Relentless Fab bumper for the sake of copying it, they clearly changed the design enough to be “different.” I’m putting different in quotes because the changes I see (i.e. none behind the exterior of the bumper) look as substantive as the changes between any of the other similar bumpers mentioned earlier in this thread. As has already been noted, SSO had the original and even then, that design was drawn up by an unaffliated member before SSO made that design a reality (if my memory serves correctly).

I guess what I’m asking is I don’t see how this is any more egregious than what two other companies did with SSO’s bumper. Or what countless wheel companies do to each other. Or RTIC did to yeti...and the list can go on. If it is, I was hoping for it to be explained. Is it shitty? Sure. But stopping the finger pointing at the Venezuelan company seems irrational. Or maybe I’ve just got a really untrained eye for these things.

OA

The point is that yes they changed their design enough to be “different” in a legal sense. But companies like Relentless took the concept that SSO had and fabricated their design from the ground up, versus TMT which bought another companies product and copied the technical work, changing some cosmetic features to make it “different”.

Companies like Yeti are large enough and have patents for their distinguishing features, enough so that RTIC had their butts handed to them in court when Yeti moved forward legally with them. In this case, patents are financially not feasible for many small fab shops and it’s more of a balance within the market to make sure that others aren’t copying one another’s design or style enough to take potential sales away from them. If you look at plate bumpers for example, every company has their subtle differences that make them their own. Those differences appeal to different people and therefore if someone likes one bumper over another, it’s not like a company is having their sale affected directly because they didn’t like the other bumper in the first place, if that makes sense.

 

[rayofsi]

The point is that yes they changed their design enough to be “different” in a legal sense. But companies like Relentless took the concept that SSO had and fabricated their design from the ground up, versus TMT which bought another companies product and copied the technical work, changing some cosmetic features to make it “different”.

Companies like Yeti are large enough and have patents for their distinguishing features, enough so that RTIC had their butts handed to them in court when Yeti moved forward legally with them. In this case, patents are financially not feasible for many small fab shops and it’s more of a balance within the market to make sure that others aren’t copying one another’s design or style enough to take potential sales away from them. If you look at plate bumpers for example, every company has their subtle differences that make them their own. Those differences appeal to different people and therefore if someone likes one bumper over another, it’s not like a company is having their sale affected directly because they didn’t like the other bumper in the first place, if that makes sense.

without seeing the backside of the tmt, theres no way to tell if its anything more then the face looking strikingly similar.

 

[sn_85]

I don’t post here often at all anymore - mostly just lurk. But I’m curious.

Other than the idea that this Venezuelan company purchased the Relentless Fab bumper for the sake of copying it, they clearly changed the design enough to be “different.” I’m putting different in quotes because the changes I see (i.e. none behind the exterior of the bumper) look as substantive as the changes between any of the other similar bumpers mentioned earlier in this thread. As has already been noted, SSO had the original and even then, that design was drawn up by an unaffliated member before SSO made that design a reality (if my memory serves correctly).

I guess what I’m asking is I don’t see how this is any more egregious than what two other companies did with SSO’s bumper. Or what countless wheel companies do to each other. Or RTIC did to yeti...and the list can go on. If it is, I was hoping for it to be explained. Is it shitty? Sure. But stopping the finger pointing at the Venezuelan company seems irrational. Or maybe I’ve just got a really untrained eye for these things.

OA

We live in the age of social media where having followers and friends are important. So sometimes I feel people get a little defensive especially when someone has strong feelings or ties to a certain brand. Brand loyalty and brand ambassadors is a big deal on Instagram. Not saying the OP is a brand ambassador but I think it's easy to get defensive about a brand when they feel like "family".

That being said I do think TMT copied Relentless and Prinsu. Having a similar bumper is one thing but having two products that look like replicas from other brands makes it pretty obvious. I won't buy from them simply because I don't know much about their history or customer service. Their bumper looks decent but the rack is just a poor and uglier copy of the Prinsu IMO. The TMT logo on the product is a big no-no. Plus I'd rather support a US company if I can.

 

[Big_Orange]

This front bumper design has been designed by TMT as a direct reflection of the Relentless Fabrication Stingray Lo-Pro Winch bumper. They ordered and received a Stingray Lo-Pro from Relentless Fabrication a few months ago, and with a very similar design I can only imagine that the original was used as a template to base their design off of. Relentless Fabrication designed, tested and hand builds every bumper in Nevada and is not a large shop to begin with but manages to product some of the best armor on the market for our 4Runners.

I would urge you to buy from the company that put the time, sweat and blood to develop the products from scratch, and not from a company who takes a shortcut to produce an inferior product.

Relentless Fabrication Stingray Lo-Pro:

TMT version:

In my opinion, The post is an irrelevant post against a company which do a great finish work in off road accessories from a country that have more years of experience on an extreme off road and background than a lot of countries in the world where almost everybody 99% drive Toyota ( truck and cars) I meant real Toyota FJ 40, FJ 60, FJ 80, Hilux, FJ Cruiser, 4 Runners and Land Cruisers since late 60's ...

My quesiton to MTN4RNR : Are all the roof tent replicas from each other? they are all have the same design ...

Drive Safe and Always remember to take your trash with you

 

[Omar RVA]

The point is that yes they changed their design enough to be “different” in a legal sense. But companies like Relentless took the concept that SSO had and fabricated their design from the ground up, versus TMT which bought another companies product and copied the technical work, changing some cosmetic features to make it “different”.

Companies like Yeti are large enough and have patents for their distinguishing features, enough so that RTIC had their butts handed to them in court when Yeti moved forward legally with them. In this case, patents are financially not feasible for many small fab shops and it’s more of a balance within the market to make sure that others aren’t copying one another’s design or style enough to take potential sales away from them. If you look at plate bumpers for example, every company has their subtle differences that make them their own. Those differences appeal to different people and therefore if someone likes one bumper over another, it’s not like a company is having their sale affected directly because they didn’t like the other bumper in the first place, if that makes sense.

Good points.

I guess it’s irrelevant to me if they “fabricated it from the ground up” if the end product is still so similar; that’s difficult to prove from any manufacturers. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not in the market at all but if I was I’d purchase from relentless or SSO before that other company; but that’s because I think corporate espionage is bullshit and I try to buy local/made in USA first.

Your plate bumper analogy is a good one too. I remember when pretty much shrockworks was all there was for 5th gens and every thing else seemed to have subtle enhancements moving forward. Obviously they’re different enough now to appeal to different groups.

We live in the age of social media where having followers and friends are important. So sometimes I feel people get a little defensive especially when someone has strong feelings or ties to a certain brand. Brand loyalty and brand ambassadors is a big deal on Instagram. Not saying the OP is a brand ambassador but I think it's easy to get defensive about a brand when they feel like "family".

That being said I do think TMT copied Relentless and Prinsu. Having a similar bumper is one thing but having two products that look like replicas from other brands makes it pretty obvious. I won't buy from them simply because I don't know much about their history or customer service. Their bumper looks decent but the rack is just a poor and uglier copy of the Prinsu IMO. The TMT logo on the product is a big no-no. Plus I'd rather support a US company if I can.

Totally agree here. I’m brand loyal as well but try to call a spade a spade when I can. Which is why I asked for clarification because at the end of the day these bumpers are all “inspired” by this guy.

I whole heartedly agree on the prinsu rack knock off; but then again Gobi might have something to say about that too (beef for another thread; but I’d back old prinsu first).

OA

 

[MTN4RNR]

We live in the age of social media where having followers and friends are important. So sometimes I feel people get a little defensive especially when someone has strong feelings or ties to a certain brand. Brand loyalty and brand ambassadors is a big deal on Instagram. Not saying the OP is a brand ambassador but I think it's easy to get defensive about a brand when they feel like "family".

That being said I do think TMT copied Relentless and Prinsu. Having a similar bumper is one thing but having two products that look like replicas from other brands makes it pretty obvious. I won't buy from them simply because I don't know much about their history or customer service. Their bumper looks decent but the rack is just a poor and uglier copy of the Prinsu IMO. The TMT logo on the product is a big no-no. Plus I'd rather support a US company if I can.

It’s hard not to sound too defensive sometimes on forum platforms. If I come off that way, it’s not my direct intent. I’m honestly just trying to keep the thread on the original track by coming back to the same main points. I’m not affiliated with the company, nor do I have any ties to them business wise other than knowing the owners and the way that they do their work. When VTX wheels was accused of poaching a number of wheel designs from SCS (a local Tacoma World self starter) there were a number of people trying to spread the word to help him out. That’s all I’m trying to do. Spread some facts and let people make what they want of it :thumb3:

 

[Omar RVA]

It’s hard not to sound too defensive sometimes on forum platforms. If I come off that way, it’s not my direct intent. I’m honestly just trying to keep the thread on the original track by coming back to the same main points. I’m not affiliated with the company, nor do I have any ties to them business wise other than knowing the owners and the way that they do their work. When VTX wheels was accused of poaching a number of wheel designs from SCS (a local Tacoma World self starter) there were a number of people trying to spread the word to help him out. That’s all I’m trying to do. Spread some facts and let people make what they want of it :thumb3:

I definitely think the original post was relevant and warranted. It’s good to know that corporate espionage occurred and can be traced. I also think you’ve done a great job of keeping the discussion civil and on track.

OA