Toyota reliability?? > or < Honda??

[J.F. Sebastian]

I'm just curious as why those 4? In Tucson/no rust, those 4 along with Toyota are the most plentiful, beside USA trucks. While far far from scientific, it seems like those brands have lasting products. again I'm just curious to know. "Knowing is half the battle" "go Joe"

Not going to get into it, not worth it. People want to buy one of those things it's their decision.

Just look at the big Subaru forums and see how many hundreds (thousands) of people are being denied warranty as one little isolated example.

My experience is mine and I have more sordid tales than enough years left in my life to chronicle them.

One of the reasons I bought a 4Runner and am very fussy about it.

 

[frcc1672]

What is going on with the 4Runner reviews?

I am seriously beginning to believe that there is a conspiracy to push the 4Runner out of the market. There seems to be an increasing number of car review sites that give the 4Runner low scores for the same reasons I bought it! Outdated drive train ( I would call it time tested and proven reliable), truck like ride (because it is a true body on frame, SUV design… doesn’t try to be a car!), and terrible gas mileage, which I don’t understand as I get 19.4 mpg… more than my Trailblazer at 16 mpg. Oh, yea, and let’s not forget how the base models don’t include the “safety features” common in most models today. Features like lane deviation, auto stopping, and other features that support more distracted driving and less accountability for the driver!
Then, I recently logged into Consumer Reports and noticed that the reliability of the 2018 went from “better” in 2017 and many prior years to “poor”, even though none of the trouble spots sited support this new rating. Also, this seems strange since one of the most common gripes about the 4Runner is that it hasn’t changed in the last 3 or 4 years… all of which were rated 5 of 5 for reliability! And now, for no apparent reason, it sits at 2 of 5??
Is there anyone out there that can comment on this??? Am I just being oversensitive?

 

[Lester Lugnut]

I am seriously beginning to believe that there is a conspiracy to push the 4Runner out of the market. There seems to be an increasing number of car review sites that give the 4Runner low scores for the same reasons I bought it! Outdated drive train ( I would call it time tested and proven reliable), truck like ride (because it is a true body on frame, SUV design… doesn’t try to be a car!), and terrible gas mileage, which I don’t understand as I get 19.4 mpg… more than my Trailblazer at 16 mpg. Oh, yea, and let’s not forget how the base models don’t include the “safety features” common in most models today. Features like lane deviation, auto stopping, and other features that support more distracted driving and less accountability for the driver!
Then, I recently logged into Consumer Reports and noticed that the reliability of the 2018 went from “better” in 2017 and many prior years to “poor”, even though none of the trouble spots sited support this new rating. Also, this seems strange since one of the most common gripes about the 4Runner is that it hasn’t changed in the last 3 or 4 years… all of which were rated 5 of 5 for reliability! And now, for no apparent reason, it sits at 2 of 5??
Is there anyone out there that can comment on this??? Am I just being oversensitive?

"If you like your 4Runner, you can keep your 4Runner".

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

Hey, it's a gas-guzzling, anti-environmental, redneck machine that people use way too much "fossil" fuel in to go out into the woods to chop and burn wood, kill fish and game and create way too much "greenhouse gas emissions"... And they come in white (gasp) which needs to end like all things white (except for snowflakes) according to snowflakes?

I just sold my last home and am "moving" (over about 18 months until my new home is built) because our strata members were more concerned with retrofitting electrical charging infrastructure into the building to charge their little douchemobiles rather than maintain the building itself and keep it livable.

We are not living in a sane, rational world anymore, particularly in the rapidly deteriorating "Western world" and we ain't seen nothin' yet. The zombie apocalypse has already happened.

 

[sctrsk]

I travel for work, and its usually in the third world. Over there, if your vehicle breaks down in the wrong place, it can get extremely serious. Also, the infrastructure is a joke, and those vehicles receive no maintenance, and when fixed are fixed by people who have less than zero qualifications.

I found one commonality between all the shitholes in central/south america, asia, and africa: there are 3 main vehicles you see on the roads. Land cruisers, Hilux's, and 4runners.

I cant afford a land cruiser, and I cant get a hilux, so I got a 4runner. If it works for them it will work for me.

Its proven to be a good decision so far. Also, i find it interesting that I'm seeing plenty of 4th and 5th gens, too. I would have expected them to be too complicated and computerized for the reliability to keep up, but it doesn't seem to be the case. And these are areas where you can't fake it. The truck either works or it doesn't, if they aren't reliable then they aren't on the roads.

 

[thennen]

"If you like your 4Runner, you can keep your 4Runner".

Made me laugh!

 

[TacoRunn0517]

I travel for work, and its usually in the third world. Over there, if your vehicle breaks down in the wrong place, it can get extremely serious. Also, the infrastructure is a joke, and those vehicles receive no maintenance, and when fixed are fixed by people who have less than zero qualifications.

I found one commonality between all the shitholes in central/south america, asia, and africa: there are 3 main vehicles you see on the roads. Land cruisers, Hilux's, and 4runners.

I cant afford a land cruiser, and I cant get a hilux, so I got a 4runner. If it works for them it will work for me.

Its proven to be a good decision so far. Also, i find it interesting that I'm seeing plenty of 4th and 5th gens, too. I would have expected them to be too complicated and computerized for the reliability to keep up, but it doesn't seem to be the case. And these are areas where you can't fake it. The truck either works or it doesn't, if they aren't reliable then they aren't on the roads.

My parents immigrated from Africa so there is so much truth in that. Especially with the Land Cruisers. We're spoiled in America and have a tough time looking outside of our boarders to really understand what a global entity like Toyota has to deal with. Toyota understands that reliability trumps everything else when it is all said and done. Regardless of one's location.

 

[T.A.Kirk]

One thing that Toyota had, and kinda still does possess, is that the company isn't run by the bean-counters, but by car people. So, when the engineering choices get made, they're not made to save every single penny they can, but to ensure that the product is the best they can build.

GM used to have a program where they bought cars from other companies and then took them to Detroit to tear down to the smallest component. They'd analyze the builds, and then do whatever they could to copy or emulate them, but a lot of the problem they had when they did that was that the supporting culture that made Toyota products what they were simply wasn't there. I used to BS with a guy who was an engineer with that program at GM, which I remember as something he called the "Mona Lisa Program", and he described his frustration with trying to get the bean-counting executives to understand what they were looking at, with regards to the Toyota <i>kaizen</i> products. With regards to something like an electronic switch for the transmission, a component that would be buried in the car for years, and not easily replaced, the problem was that the GM executives would look at that switch from Denso, see the price, and then tell Delco to make a similar switch for less money. What they missed was this--Toyota was building that Denso switch into <i>all</i> their products, from the Corolla to the Land Cruiser, and the switch's quality was kept up and affordable because of volume. In a lot of cases, those Denso parts were better than marine or milspec, and were priced so low because they were produced in lots numbering hundreds of thousands. GM would go to Delco, and tell them to make a much smaller number of switches for less money than the Denso one, and the resultant small production run would then mean crap quality, leading to a switch that would fail and a transmission that would require replacement or rebuild long before the equivalent Toyota product. As well, Toyota took responsibility for the success of their <i>kaizen</i> partners, and would have engineers and accountants out in the partner's plants to ensure the quality was kept up, and the company still managed to make money. Toyota would go so far as to find other Japanese companies to buy the same parts, or other products from their <i>kaizen</i> partners. The relationships were incestuous as hell, and likely illegal under US anti-trust law, but that's how Toyota managed to keep their quality so high. You go look at a lot of Denso products, and the Toyota-spec'd ones are generally going to meet higher quality standards than any other auto manufacturer demands.

Which is why Toyota is the company it is--They aren't a health-benefits and retirement fund that makes cars on the side. They're a real, honest-to-God car company, with car people running it, who take a lot of pride in their products.

The bean counters took over the US car companies a couple of generations ago, and haven't let anything disrupt their hold on things. Which is why you have FCA building and selling Wranglers with frame welds that fall off, and their preferred fix is to have the customer bring the car in and they'll have a guy with a MIG welder do what the factory robot should have done in the first damn place... Toyota wouldn't be in that position, and if they were...? Well, look at the frame buy-back they did, with the Tacomas. You'd have to threaten Ford, GM, or Chrysler with a lawsuit of epic proportions, to even get them to consider that kind of response.

 

[Swipter]

I had an 09 Camry I gave to my son. It has the 3.5 liter engine, the best made in the Camry in my opinion. It has close to 100k and only struts and shocks changed.

That car is so fast and gets great mpg.

 

[jackacc]

I found one commonality between all the shitholes in central/south america, asia, and africa: there are 3 main vehicles you see on the roads. Land cruisers, Hilux's, and 4runners.

.

Well said, I always thought about that too. Whenever the media shows coverage of the middle east, all you see are Toyota trucks everywhere.

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

I had an 09 Camry I gave to my son. It has the 3.5 liter engine, the best made in the Camry in my opinion. It has close to 100k and only struts and shocks changed.

That car is so fast and gets great mpg.

Honda literally ruined their Accord by discontinuing the V6 and just couldn't leave one of the loveliest salon/touring car bodies in human history alone for 2018. The V6s will eventually disappear from Toyota's line-up also I'd submit.

 

[T.A.Kirk]

Honda literally ruined their Accord by discontinuing the V6 and just couldn't leave one of the loveliest salon/touring car bodies in human history alone for 2018. The V6s will eventually disappear from Toyota's line-up also I'd submit.

Blame the government and environmentalists in all countries. Much of the idiocy in car companies with regards to all this sort of things stems from one thing, and one thing only: The government thinking it knows better than the buying public and the automotive engineers.

There's a whole hidden history as to why the big three were in financial trouble back during the last economic bubble, and a lot of that had to do with the insanity of CAFE requiring them to build X number of cars that people wouldn't buy, and then getting stuck with them. The cars that people wanted...? They were still selling; the cars that didn't sell, but had to be built in order to keep up the CAFE standards? Thousands went unsold, and I've heard rumors that a bunch of them get scrapped every year--You'll never see that on the news, though, 'cos "narrative".

The government puts its finger into so much BS these days that we might as well be living under fascism, where the government manages all the private industry. Car companies are only a part of the picture; if you knew how much stuff in your grocery cart was only there because someone tweaked the regulations to make it profitable? The incestuous way that things like high fructose corn syrup made their way into becoming dietary staples is something that would flat blow your mind, and were you to research just how much of the government-approved dietary advice has been warped by special interests and compliant scientists, you'd be outraged.

We really don't live under a capitalist system; what we've got is a system where the government and regulatory power has been captured by special interests and "activists" who have used that power to completely warp our civilization out of whack. Were the market to actually be left alone, a lot of the stuff we see with regards to cars would not be happening--It's like the whole E85 BS--That technology doesn't save gas, and we're basically burning food for fuel we have in abundance, but because the special interests have captured the EPA and Congress, we're gonna keep right on burning oil to grow corn to make alcohol to burn as fuel in the cars we drive, which are going to have enormous problems adapting to the new fuel blends they're going to shove down our throats. All of us driving older vehicles are going to get screwed by E85 coming in, and everyone is just sitting here, nodding along with the idiots about how we need to do this...

We're not a capitalist society, today: Effectively, we are fascist, with the almighty State running the economy and maliciously managing everyone's business. Disbelieve? Where are the most prosperous counties, these days? Surrounding the capital; how many people do we have in government jobs, unionized and using our tax dollars to lobby the elected government to do things against the public interest? Hell, in most states, the taxpayers are stuck paying the wages of the union organizers in their state governments...

The whole thing is frustrating as hell, because you can see where it's all headed, and that's not a good place at all. California and Illinois, writ large and nation-wide.

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

Blame the government and environmentalists in all countries. Much of the idiocy in car companies with regards to all this sort of things stems from one thing, and one thing only: The government thinking it knows better than the buying public and the automotive engineers.

There's a whole hidden history as to why the big three were in financial trouble back during the last economic bubble, and a lot of that had to do with the insanity of CAFE requiring them to build X number of cars that people wouldn't buy, and then getting stuck with them. The cars that people wanted...? They were still selling; the cars that didn't sell, but had to be built in order to keep up the CAFE standards? Thousands went unsold, and I've heard rumors that a bunch of them get scrapped every year--You'll never see that on the news, though, 'cos "narrative".

The government puts its finger into so much BS these days that we might as well be living under fascism, where the government manages all the private industry. Car companies are only a part of the picture; if you knew how much stuff in your grocery cart was only there because someone tweaked the regulations to make it profitable? The incestuous way that things like high fructose corn syrup made their way into becoming dietary staples is something that would flat blow your mind, and were you to research just how much of the government-approved dietary advice has been warped by special interests and compliant scientists, you'd be outraged.

We really don't live under a capitalist system; what we've got is a system where the government and regulatory power has been captured by special interests and "activists" who have used that power to completely warp our civilization out of whack. Were the market to actually be left alone, a lot of the stuff we see with regards to cars would not be happening--It's like the whole E85 BS--That technology doesn't save gas, and we're basically burning food for fuel we have in abundance, but because the special interests have captured the EPA and Congress, we're gonna keep right on burning oil to grow corn to make alcohol to burn as fuel in the cars we drive, which are going to have enormous problems adapting to the new fuel blends they're going to shove down our throats. All of us driving older vehicles are going to get screwed by E85 coming in, and everyone is just sitting here, nodding along with the idiots about how we need to do this...

We're not a capitalist society, today: Effectively, we are fascist, with the almighty State running the economy and maliciously managing everyone's business. Disbelieve? Where are the most prosperous counties, these days? Surrounding the capital; how many people do we have in government jobs, unionized and using our tax dollars to lobby the elected government to do things against the public interest? Hell, in most states, the taxpayers are stuck paying the wages of the union organizers in their state governments...

The whole thing is frustrating as hell, because you can see where it's all headed, and that's not a good place at all. California and Illinois, writ large and nation-wide.

Yes sir, all very true. I'm woke enough to know how this rock is really run but try not to get into it on forums and things if I can avoid it. Being red-pilled is a burden and co-existing in two worlds essentially is a curse but that's our plight in this life apparently? Cheers

 

[T.A.Kirk]

Yes sir, all very true. I'm woke enough to know how this rock is really run but try not to get into it on forums and things if I can avoid it. Being red-pilled is a burden and co-existing in two worlds essentially is a curse but that's our plight in this life apparently? Cheers

Hell, it's worth pointing out that the only reason we even have an SUV market out there is that the EPA and Congress decided we didn't need big honking sedans and station wagons, then legislated and regulated those out of existence, only to see the driving public go "Huh... Can't get the Family Truckster anymore...? Well, now... What about that there Suburban and full-size Bronco...?". Cue the other car companies figuring out that if you couldn't sell big sedans and station wagons anymore, why not build things you can classify as trucks, and sell those to the people that used to buy the big sedans...?

As with most of this stuff, the idjits shot themselves in the foot--My guess is that absent all the stupidity they pulled over forcing CAFE and the other regulations down our throats, the market would have reacted naturally, and we'd still have the big 'ol boats that used to be the mainstay of the market, but with a lot more efficiency. Overall, the whole "Kill the big sedan/station wagon..." effort just created more overall energy waste. Gas prices alone would have had people seeking more efficiencies, and unregulated foreign competition coming in would have forced Detroit to change for the better. A lot of people miss that Toyota held back a lot of their products because they were worried about the Congress and other regulators getting all protectionist over the US market, and so we don't see Toyota deliberately trying to compete in a lot of automotive sectors, or bringing in all of their products. The lack of competitive pressure allowed Detroit to get fat and sloppy, which is how we got here today. A truly unregulated market that wasn't subject to interference from the government to benefit specific companies would look a lot different from what we see here in the US today.

Hell, look at the overseas markets where they don't have car industries, like the Middle East; Toyota dominates, and why? Superior products, superior service. You want a part to fix your Toyota in Kuwait, they're available right there, and at affordable prices. You want to fix your GM, Ford, or Chrysler...? LOL... My friend, let me tell you about the how and why of Perkins losing the Kuwaiti market for marine engines, which pretty much sums up why the Japanese dominate. While I was in Kuwait for the first part of OIF, we ran the piss out of our bridge boats up in Iraq. Those boats were built with Perkins Marine motors, from the Sabre company in the UK. Perkins Marine used to literally <i>own</i> the Gulf's marine engine market for many and varied reasons, not the least of which was that Kuwait was once a British Protectorate. Thing is, Perkins provided horrible service, and the guys we dealt with down there to get parts were all telling us that we'd be better off going back to the US, and having the parts shipped in from there--Perkins would take three weeks to even acknowledge the order, more time to ship the parts, and likely, they'd be the wrong ones when they got there. The Kuwaiti dealer was apologetic, but he warned us that we'd probably be better off doing what most of the rest of the Gulf oil companies did--re-engine to a Nissan Marine set of motors, and solve our problems.

As a back-up, we ordered the parts we needed through the Kuwaiti agent for Perkins, and ordered through the official military system. That was in November, 2003. By the time we left in April of 2004, the parts hadn't shown up through either channel, and we passed the order on to our replacement unit. We returned for our second tour in November of 2005, to the identical mission and installation, and found that the parts ordered through the US military system had finally shown up in early 2005. While we were there in Iraq, the Kuwaiti vendor pinged our maintenance warrant officer, and asked if we still wanted the parts we'd ordered--They'd just gotten there, for the third time, and this time, they were the right ones.

There's a reason the Japanese dominate a lot of markets and industrial sectors around the world, and it's got 'eff-all to do with anything special or different that they're doing--All they do is show up, produce, and do it in a timely manner. A lot of companies in a lot of sectors here in the US and Europe just... Don't. There's nothing that Toyota does that's particularly special, it's just that they take the time to actually, y'know... Do it. And, they pay attention to the customer. Companies like Perkins, for example? They apparently think that the customer is only concerned with having a Perkins product in their boats, not in having a work boat that actually, like, runs every day.

A lot of Japanese companies do very well simply because they actually and sincerely give a damn about their product and the customers that use them. The ones that fail, like GM and FCA? They've lost the bubble, in that regard.

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

Hell, it's worth pointing out that the only reason we even have an SUV market out there is that the EPA and Congress decided we didn't need big honking sedans and station wagons, then legislated and regulated those out of existence, only to see the driving public go "Huh... Can't get the Family Truckster anymore...? Well, now... What about that there Suburban and full-size Bronco...?". Cue the other car companies figuring out that if you couldn't sell big sedans and station wagons anymore, why not build things you can classify as trucks, and sell those to the people that used to buy the big sedans...?

As with most of this stuff, the idjits shot themselves in the foot--My guess is that absent all the stupidity they pulled over forcing CAFE and the other regulations down our throats, the market would have reacted naturally, and we'd still have the big 'ol boats that used to be the mainstay of the market, but with a lot more efficiency. Overall, the whole "Kill the big sedan/station wagon..." effort just created more overall energy waste. Gas prices alone would have had people seeking more efficiencies, and unregulated foreign competition coming in would have forced Detroit to change for the better. A lot of people miss that Toyota held back a lot of their products because they were worried about the Congress and other regulators getting all protectionist over the US market, and so we don't see Toyota deliberately trying to compete in a lot of automotive sectors, or bringing in all of their products. The lack of competitive pressure allowed Detroit to get fat and sloppy, which is how we got here today. A truly unregulated market that wasn't subject to interference from the government to benefit specific companies would look a lot different from what we see here in the US today.

Hell, look at the overseas markets where they don't have car industries, like the Middle East; Toyota dominates, and why? Superior products, superior service. You want a part to fix your Toyota in Kuwait, they're available right there, and at affordable prices. You want to fix your GM, Ford, or Chrysler...? LOL... My friend, let me tell you about the how and why of Perkins losing the Kuwaiti market for marine engines, which pretty much sums up why the Japanese dominate. While I was in Kuwait for the first part of OIF, we ran the piss out of our bridge boats up in Iraq. Those boats were built with Perkins Marine motors, from the Sabre company in the UK. Perkins Marine used to literally <i>own</i> the Gulf's marine engine market for many and varied reasons, not the least of which was that Kuwait was once a British Protectorate. Thing is, Perkins provided horrible service, and the guys we dealt with down there to get parts were all telling us that we'd be better off going back to the US, and having the parts shipped in from there--Perkins would take three weeks to even acknowledge the order, more time to ship the parts, and likely, they'd be the wrong ones when they got there. The Kuwaiti dealer was apologetic, but he warned us that we'd probably be better off doing what most of the rest of the Gulf oil companies did--re-engine to a Nissan Marine set of motors, and solve our problems.

As a back-up, we ordered the parts we needed through the Kuwaiti agent for Perkins, and ordered through the official military system. That was in November, 2003. By the time we left in April of 2004, the parts hadn't shown up through either channel, and we passed the order on to our replacement unit. We returned for our second tour in November of 2005, to the identical mission and installation, and found that the parts ordered through the US military system had finally shown up in early 2005. While we were there in Iraq, the Kuwaiti vendor pinged our maintenance warrant officer, and asked if we still wanted the parts we'd ordered--They'd just gotten there, for the third time, and this time, they were the right ones.

There's a reason the Japanese dominate a lot of markets and industrial sectors around the world, and it's got 'eff-all to do with anything they're doing--All they do is show up, produce, and do it in a timely manner. A lot of companies in a lot of sectors here in the US and Europe just... Don't. There's nothing that Toyota does that's particularly special, it's just that they take the time to actually, y'know... Do it. And, they pay attention to the customer. Companies like Perkins, for example? They apparently think that the customer is only concerned with having a Perkins product in their boats, not in having a work boat that actually, like, runs every day.

A lot of Japanese companies do very well simply because they actually and sincerely give a damn about their product and the customers that use them. The ones that fail, like GM and FCA? They've lost the bubble, in that regard.

Do you ever get criticized for making far too much sense?

I worked around a Toyota port rep briefly before I left working life once and for all. All the teamsters hated her for that very reason, she expected some results and got things done. That was my first first-hand experience with Toyota and made an impression on me, one that culminated in me confidently giving them $50K for a new vehicle.

We're the kind of people that would make great neighbors. What is a guy like you doing in a pinko state like Washington (or anywhere on the West coast for that matter)? You're on a roll by the way...

 

[Swipter]

Very interesting stuff. It's like hes in my mind. Very eerie.

 

[T.A.Kirk]

Do you ever get criticized for making far too much sense?

I worked around a Toyota port rep briefly before I left working life once and for all. All the teamsters hated her for that very reason, she expected some results and got things done. That was my first first-hand experience with Toyota and made an impression on me, one that culminated in me confidently giving them $50K for a new vehicle.

We're the kind of people that would make great neighbors. What is a guy like you doing in a pinko state like Washington (or anywhere on the West coast for that matter)? You're on a roll by the way...

I'm not from the wet side, is why... Much like the rest of the so-called "left coast", once you get outside the cities, it's not chock full-o-nuts with the crazies. But, they're breeding and spreading, so I'll probably be headed somewhere else, eventually.

All y'all need to remember that when you say "Washington" in terms of the crazy and stupid, you're really only talking about a couple of metro counties around the Puget Sound--King, Pierce, and Snohomish. Used to be only King, but nowadays, the idiocy has spread. Same-same with Oregon and California--You get out of the metro areas, and the fruit and nut industry is actually producing agricultural stuff, not two-legged crazies.

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

I'm not from the wet side, is why... Much like the rest of the so-called "left coast", once you get outside the cities, it's not chock full-o-nuts with the crazies. But, they're breeding and spreading, so I'll probably be headed somewhere else, eventually.

That's what I'm looking at right now. You guys think it's nuts in the U.S., just try some Kanuckistanian hospitality for a while but watch what you say lest you end-up in front of an unelected "human rights tribunal" getting fined for a quarter million because you hurt some immigrant's feelings. We're experiencing our Soetoro moment on steroids right now. Even our "conservatives" are globalists/communists.

The 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution is sweeping the "West" and pretty much every university in North America is indoctrinating young minds with the virtues of radical Marxism. They're eating it up and we are relegating an entire generation to being punk activists and little else.

Never thought I'd even consider it but I'm looking at the "central" States somewhere. There's really nowhere to escape insanity but to congregate amidst a desired demographic and hope it lasts...

 

[T.A.Kirk]

That's what I'm looking at right now. You guys think it's nuts in the U.S., just try some Kanuckistanian hospitality for a while but watch what you say lest you end-up in front of an unelected "human rights tribunal" getting fined for a quarter million because you hurt some immigrant's feelings. We're experiencing our Soetoro moment on steroids right now. Even our "conservatives" are globalists/communists.

The 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution is sweeping the "West" and pretty much every university in North America is indoctrinating young minds with the virtues of radical Marxism. Alas, people never hear about that holocaust though, whereby over 50 million Russian Christians perished at the hands of the Bolshevik tribe, a few of which my extended family.

Never thought I'd even consider it but I'm looking at the "central" States somewhere. There's really nowhere to escape insanity but to congregate amidst a desired demographic and hope it lasts...

Remember that that which cannot last, does not. It's cyclic; the idjits take charge, break things, and then the grown-ups in the next generation have to clean up the mess. Every sector in societies go through this process, and it's just our bad luck that the entire set of "elite" sectors like academia and governance are going through the "idjit" stage at the same time. At some point, the inherent contradictions reach a point where everyone suddenly realizes "Hey, this isn't working...", and the whole thing caves in under the mass of "doesn't work". Happened to the Soviet Union, happening in Venezuela, probably going to happen in the West. Won't be pretty--I expect the pendulum to go swinging way back far the other direction in my lifetime, probably in the mid-2030s or 2040s for actually visible effects, like pogroms for the gays and so forth. What can't go on, won't.

If you're a student of history, you have seen the cyclic nature of things--The Victorians were largely a counter-reaction to the licentiousness and lack of virtue in Georgian and Regency England, with the cultural effect spreading outwards from there. Expect a similar reaction to all this current crap, only expect it to be exponentially more extreme--They (meaning the idjit class of SJW types...) have pushed the pendulum so far away from center that the inevitable counter-swing is going to go <i>waaaaaaay</i> past the point of equilibrium, and I would not rule out things happening straight out of the imaginations of people like Margaret Atwood, but focused on the SJW protected classes like the gays.

Few societies do things that do not have at least a slight empirical and experiential basis in facts relating to human behavior that are hard-wired in; that there hasn't ever been a society that tolerated behavior out in the open like that which we usually think of as being "gay" probably has a damn good reason for it. If a behavior is generally suppressed, and kept in the closet, there's usually a good reason society did that, even if it wasn't consciously thought through and decided on. A lot of things that the SJW types decry as being racist and intolerant...? Well, there are reasons societies used to really frown on single motherhood, and sex out of wedlock: It creates chaos down amidst the roots of society, the family. We've lost track of that set of facts, and are currently enjoying a period where the Gods of the Copybook Headings are warming up, backstage of it all. They're going to be coming on stage here, fairly soon, and it's gonna be a doozy of a show...

 

[J.F. Sebastian]

Kondratieff Winters, "financial cycles", wip-sawing society between red and blue, democrat and republican, maintaining the critical petrodollar hegemony slave trade even if you have to be friends with savages, now Kalergi-planning the entire "West"... I'm fairly convinced this planet is hell and am just trying to get my soul out of this shit show in one piece at this point...