Toyota Temporarily Suspends Sales of Selected Vehicles

[SkylineGTRracer]

The damn vsc cuts power sometimes when you least expect it (left turn, oncoming traffic, just a tiny bit slick but not enough to be risky). But not when you are on the brakes hard for a long time ?

yeah thats what I hate the most about by 4runner.

 

[dwulffusa]

Well this unintended accelaration thing is obviously getting some legs and now there's clearly some poor quality product truth in it, but here's my 5c

This wouldnt phase me one bit in buying another Toyota.

1. My 4Runner on a number of occassions has had this 'unintended accelaration' - mine caused by the dealer purchased all weather rubber mats on top of carpet mats that werent hooked in and slid up to the point of being a problem if you punched the gas to the floor. The gas pedal sticks wide open... Most times this was in a 1st gear situation - and you get a fright oh yes, but my immediate reaction each time was hit the brake, slam neutral and then realise what was going on and pull the mat back. So, user error, my fault on all accounts - I put the mats in, I am responsible for checking the safety of my vehicle everytime I drive it. An obstruction around the pedals is something that we should be checking, but somehow in a car, we think we are exempt from basic safety checks and when something goes wrong is the car's fault, the manufacturer's fault etc., ... Personal responsibility people, try it.

2. Next up, we are now talking about a bad quality component (with speculation that this is all related to cost cutting measures), where the hardware is deteriorating in less than 5yrs to the point that a gas pedal mechanism fails and doesnt return to rest. Yeesh, thats a problem. Does it happen without warning? One day snap back, next day no spring? Probably not and perhaps people should be more alert to changes in their vehicles behaviour, but OK, not everyone is that tuned in so yes, its unacceptable that this is going on. They must fix it and I believe they will.
If I needed a new car right now and one of these affected vehicles was on the top of my list, I would still buy it and have the new mechanism installed as soon as it is available.

Not a chance I am trading all of Toyota's known design superiorities, reliability, longevity, running cost etc to a domestic brand that only in the last 2 years or so has improved ratings by releasing a successful model or 2 that rivals the japanese brands for those traits.

Now, will we ever find out if its the design spec of the component that was at fault or the supplier's quality and consistency?

 

[Thai]

BTW, my Sienna's gas pedal does NOT look like Denso, not the bad one.

 

[gptoy96]

2. Next up, we are now talking about a bad quality component (with speculation that this is all related to cost cutting measures), where the hardware is deteriorating in less than 5yrs to the point that a gas pedal mechanism fails and doesnt return to rest. Yeesh, thats a problem. Does it happen without warning? One day snap back, next day no spring? Probably not and perhaps people should be more alert to changes in their vehicles behaviour, but OK, not everyone is that tuned in so yes, its unacceptable that this is going on.

I've heard this a few times now about it deteriorating over time, but I have to question that. Wasn't the accident with the Highway Patrolman and his family in a brand new Lexus?

I agree though, all this news and bad press doesn't make me think for a minute that I'd rather get something other than a Toyota. I'm a bit worried about my resale value now that is sure to take a hit, and when I try to brag up the brand to my friends/neighbours I know I'll get this thrown in my face for a while. The one thing I know (as was proven to me when my old Taco's frame rusted out on me) is the rare times Toyota makes a mistake, they go out of their way to make things right again.

 

[morphius909]

I'm not worried about this. At least for my 4runner. I love it. It's reliable, sturdy and well put together (minus the stupid seat and driveline Clunk).

If anything, this has boosted the Population of the Anti-Import Group. Every forum I belong to has not just Toyota bashing, but Import Bashing. It's a little annoying.

I'm not a fan of most of Toyotas Products though because of either styling, pricing, etc. But I am loyal to Toyota and will remain so.

If Toyota REALLY wants to make this up, they really should lower prices a smidge, possibly offer those owners with the effected vehicles a year of free service, etc etc.

Toyota is going to take a hit. Just how bad that hit will be will depend on Toyota and making it up to it's current loyal owners and prospective buyers.

 

[toto]

Wasn't the accident with the Highway Patrolman and his family in a brand new Lexus?

Yes, and I've wondered about that, too. The only Lexus made outside of Japan is the RX (a portion of them are made in Canada), so that means he must have had the Denso gas pedal. Maybe they're blaming that accident on the floor mat? Or, will there be another recall?

I have a feeling that the ultimate solution to this is going to be a retrofit of the brake override logic on the computers going back some number of years.

 

[charlier180]

I have a feeling that the ultimate solution to this is going to be a retrofit of the brake override logic on the computers going back some number of years.

DING, DING, DING, we have a WINNER!!!!!

Toyota not designing their Drive By Wire system so that pressing the brake pedal overrides the gas pedal was simply STUPID. No Ifs, Ands or Buts..
Other automakers (Volkswagen among others) designed it into their systems from the very beginning.

Had Toyota taken the trouble and made the effort to design this into their DBW systems, floor mat or gas pedal issues would not have made it such a safety hazard and the recall such a media event.

Toyota had better hope and pray that there is not memo or email evidence somewhere that shows some bean counter studied the cost of doing the DBW system with the override versus deaths and lawsuits.

IMHO the only way for Toyota to put this issue behind them is to retrofit the brake override logic into every DBW vehicle that does not already have it.
Yes that will cost them a S**T Load of money. It will however show the public they are serious about dealing with the underlying, real, problem here and not just floor mats and gas pedals.

 

[dwulffusa]

DING, DING, DING, we have a WINNER!!!!!



Had Toyota taken the trouble and made the effort to design this into their DBW systems, floor mat or gas pedal issues would not have made it such a safety hazard and the recall such a media event.

Toyota had better hope and pray that there is not memo or email evidence somewhere that shows some bean counter studied the cost of doing the DBW system with the override versus deaths and lawsuits.

IMHO the only way for Toyota to put this issue behind them is to retrofit the brake override logic into every DBW vehicle that does not already have it.
Yes that will cost them a S**T Load of money. It will however show the public they are serious about dealing with the underlying, real, problem here and not just floor mats and gas pedals.

I disagree that it would have reduced the media hype, but it would have counted as a plus for their response.

Car and Driver (March 2010) has a 2 page article on braking tests under full throttle, Toyota's drive by wire programming etc. Yes other manufacturers have this programmed in, but not all. Its surprising that Toyota doesnt have it considering how inhibitive there traction control systems, an indication of their conservative approach to handling - to increase safety.

I was really surprised to see how well the Camry faired in a braking test under full throttle. The Camry V6 took only an additional 16ft from 70 under full throttle, still shorter than a Taurus under full braking, no throttle! And a Roush Mustang with 540HP slowed from 120 all the way to 10mph.

I personally dont see the need for this programming, perhaps fine in an SUV, but would suck in a sports model while heel and toeing - because I expect that it would be so conservatively calibrated in a Toyota that merely touching the brake and throttle together would cut power all together.

Oh wait, Toyota doesnt have sports models anymore!

 

[morphius909]

It was only a matter of time. Just sad and pathetic I say.

ThrottleGate: First class-action lawsuit filed against Toyota over pedal recall — Autoblog

 

[toto]

While NHTSA can't find a problem with Toyota's drive-by-wire computer, they did find that on several models the engine acceleration was able to overcome the brakes and keep the car moving forward. That's scary.

Here's why I think Toyota didn't put in a brake override: there are too many people who drive a car with an automatic trans "with both feet" when it's not necessary. (Granted, as mentioned above, there are situations where such control is desirable, but not for the average person going down the road.) You'll know when you're behind someone like that - the brake lights are on a lot more than they should be, even when crusing down the road with no intersections in sight. If you put in a brake override, you'll scare the crap out of people who drive that way, because the brake will override the gas and the car will slow down or stop all the time. Certainly, it will make them break that habit and become better drivers, but until they learn, they'll keep slowing down unexepectedly and possibly cause a rear-end collision.

However, I think the result of the NHTSA tests clearly shows that it's more important to put in that safety and stop the car than it is to coddle to people who don't drive correctly.

 

[Uneek]

While NHTSA can't find a problem with Toyota's drive-by-wire computer, they did find that on several models the engine acceleration was able to overcome the brakes and keep the car moving forward. That's scary.

Here's why I think Toyota didn't put in a brake override: there are too many people who drive a car with an automatic trans "with both feet" when it's not necessary. (Granted, as mentioned above, there are situations where such control is desirable, but not for the average person going down the road.) You'll know when you're behind someone like that - the brake lights are on a lot more than they should be, even when crusing down the road with no intersections in sight. If you put in a brake override, you'll scare the crap out of people who drive that way, because the brake will override the gas and the car will slow down or stop all the time. Certainly, it will make them break that habit and become better drivers, but until they learn, they'll keep slowing down unexepectedly and possibly cause a rear-end collision.

However, I think the result of the NHTSA tests clearly shows that it's more important to put in that safety and stop the car than it is to coddle to people who don't drive correctly.

toto, I think that's the only logical explanation Toyota has if it's not due to cost or oversight.

 

[charlier180]

However, I think the result of the NHTSA tests clearly shows that it's more important to put in that safety and stop the car than it is to coddle to people who don't drive correctly.

You do have a point about people that drive with two feet and how the brake override would impact they way they drive. Given I choice (after it had been explained to them) I would bet that the vast majority of these people would opt for the safety of the override over the PITA of learning to drive differently.

FWIW, it has been my experience that people that drive with two feet are very few and far between. That is based on how many vehicles I see with their brake lights on while driving. The other thing to remember is that many, many years ago people were taught to drive with two feet. That is not the case any longer.

BTW, a friend of my is an auto tech at a dealership. He had a complaint of a new car hesitating. He went for a test drive with the customer. During the drive the tech noticed the customer was driving with two feet and the car did hesitate when the customer tried to accelerate from a stop.
They then switched places and the tech drove. He then proceeded to explain to the customer that his vehicle and all the other models they sell had the brake override in them as a safety feature. The customer was grateful for the explanation, for the brake override feature and said he would stop driving with two feet.

 

[toto]

Saw this diagram of the gas pedal fix on CNN this morning.
It looks to me like the shim, er, "Precision Cut Steel Reinforcement Bar", decreases pedal travel toward the floor by just a small amount. Maybe flooring the pedal has been causing undue stress on another part?

 

[peter78]

Looks to me they are not fixing the problem, they are just "jerry rigging" it and hope that fixes it. I am surprised they didn't use duct tape.

 

[SkylineGTRracer]

Looks to me they are not fixing the problem, they are just "jerry rigging" it and hope that fixes it. I am surprised they didn't use duct tape.

Yeah but right now they are doing damage control to have the least amount of damage to image as possible.

 

[peter78]

Yeah but right now they are doing damage control to have the least amount of damage to image as possible.

I don't know if I want to drive around with the part that doesn't work that great still in my car. I put in a shim when I didn't do something quite right. What happens if this doesn't fix the problem?

 

[snap315]

I've been noticing something about this whole mess with Toyota.

1. This "fix" that they have includes pedal assemblies and shims for these assemblies. There are no electronics or wiring at all. Toyota is standing by their story that this is a mechanical issue and not an electronics or electrical one.

2. None of these fixes or recalls affect their LEXUS line of vehicles at all. Toyota hasn't mentioned a single thing about any issues with their LEXUS lines. This is despite the fact that the first HIGH PROFILE incident involved a LEXUS rental car. Are we supposed to believe that any sudden acceleration events on LEXUS models are solely floor mat related?!? Do a search on the Club Lexus forum and you'll see that this isn't true.



Toyota is trying to save face but their tactics will backfire big time, if and when a deeper systemic problem involving their electrical systems is descovered.

 

[Thai]

On another thread, ABC News reported that a lady had unintended acceleration in her Prius, which is NOT on the recall list. I am just waiting for the day that my Sienna is also included...in the meantime, i will keep my hand close to the transmission to push it to NEUTRAL when needed!

 

[Uneek]

Looks to me they are not fixing the problem, they are just "jerry rigging" it and hope that fixes it. I am surprised they didn't use duct tape.

Yeah but right now they are doing damage control to have the least amount of damage to image as possible.

I've been noticing something about this whole mess with Toyota.

1. This "fix" that they have includes pedal assemblies and shims for these assemblies. There are no electronics or wiring at all. Toyota is standing by their story that this is a mechanical issue and not an electronics or electrical one.

2. None of these fixes or recalls affect their LEXUS line of vehicles at all. Toyota hasn't mentioned a single thing about any issues with their LEXUS lines. This is despite the fact that the first HIGH PROFILE incident involved a LEXUS rental car. Are we supposed to believe that any sudden acceleration events on LEXUS models are solely floor mat related?!? Do a search on the Club Lexus forum and you'll see that this isn't true.



Toyota is trying to save face but their tactics will backfire big time, if and when a deeper systemic problem involving their electrical systems is descovered.

On another thread, ABC News reported that a lady had unintended acceleration in her Prius, which is NOT on the recall list. I am just waiting for the day that my Sienna is also included...in the meantime, i will keep my hand close to the transmission to push it to NEUTRAL when needed!

I think the damage is done. Though Toyota hasn't said it and no one called it out yet. But to me, take care of the bottom line first, then the customer.

Toyota sends new gas pedals to factories rather than dealership service departments - 1/29/10 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

But some dealers said they should get the parts first so that they can fix the cars already on the road.

Earl Stewart, owner of a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Fla., said his mechanics might not know the details of how to fix the gas pedals, but they know how to install new ones.

"That's absolutely stupid," he said of sending the parts to factories. "It makes no sense at all."

Toyota dealers have been complaining for days that the automaker has left them in the dark about the nature of the gas pedal problem, when and how it will be fixed, and what to tell customers fearful their accelerators will get stuck and cause their cars to crash.

The article was prior to 2/1/2010's big announcement.

Apparently, factories are getting new gas pedals. Cars already on the road, a shim. I'm not an engineer and the picture toto posted doesn't mean much to me, but it a "shim" that sounds like a half @$$ fix and something that will limit travel. I don't think this is over and still believe something is going on with the electronics despite the fact Toyota says its been investigated countless times and nothing has been found. Doesn't explain claims of it happening to members here in the 4Runner, Prius or the infamous ES350. The news today also said, the document for the floormat recall asks the dealer/tech to reflash the ECU so the brake overrides the brake pedal.

If the shim does trully fix this issue, I bet the next thing is the shim doesn't allow me to floor it and left me in harm's way.

Looks like the condensation rusting the spring theory causing the pedal to stick is out. :naughty:

 

[My1stT4R]

Hello,

HERE is a breakdown of the differences between the CTS and Denso made accelerator pedal assembly from The Truth About Cars. Someone took the time to take the assemblies apart and compare them. TTAC recommends TMC use the Denso unit and discontinue use of the CTS unit, even after retrofit. Fascinating white paper.