TPMS compromised

[message]

Good article on the functionality of TPMS as well as how easily the system is compromised/fooled.

Data Leaks: How My Car Betrays Me

 

[Jed]

Interesting article, but I'm not sure that I understand their point with TPMS. Each sensor does transmit a signal, but it is a very weak signal and could not be picked up from far away. The range is short because there's no need for it to travel big distances. So if you're close enough to pick up a TPMS signal, then you're close enough to read the VIN plate on the car or any other means of identifying it.

So what are they trying to say?

 

[eskimochaos]

Interesting article, but I'm not sure that I understand their point with TPMS. Each sensor does transmit a signal, but it is a very weak signal and could not be picked up from far away. The range is short because there's no need for it to travel big distances. So if you're close enough to pick up a TPMS signal, then you're close enough to read the VIN plate on the car or any other means of identifying it.

So what are they trying to say?

Jed, you're back!

Anyway, my issue with the TPMS sensors is that the batteries will eventually die ultimately triggering the dash light.

 

[Jed]

Jed, you're back!

Anyway, my issue with the TPMS sensors is that the batteries will eventually die ultimately triggering the dash light.

Yeah, back after being banned TWICE! LOL. I don't even know what I did wrong the second time...

BTW, the batteries dying does suck, but did you know that you can completely disable your TPMS system by grounding a single wire? Someone posted instructions on how to do it a while back. I think it's a great option for those who have dead TPMS batteries. Especially when you consider that the batteries are not replaceable.

 

[Koz]

Jed, you're back!

Anyway, my issue with the TPMS sensors is that the batteries will eventually die ultimately triggering the dash light.

That does not make sense, no pun intended. It would make sense to only transmit when low pressure is sensed. I have never heard of a battery dying in a sensor.

Koz

 

[eskimochaos]

That does not make sense, no pun intended. It would make sense to only transmit when low pressure is sensed. I have never heard of a battery dying in a sensor.

Koz

How does it not make sense? There are five wireless sensors on each wheel....they are powered via a battery.

You haven't heard about it yet because nobodys battery has died yet.

I don't believe they run off pixi dust.

Jed, I've had two timeouts dice I registered too. They don't want to ban me permanently because I have the best avatar on the entire site.

 

[Jed]

That does not make sense, no pun intended. It would make sense to only transmit when low pressure is sensed. I have never heard of a battery dying in a sensor.

Koz

The sensor transmits constantly...well, maybe not constantly, but in set time increments.

Also, Toyota already claims a life expectancy of 7 years for the TPMS batteries. This is published info in their own literature.

The reason you haven't heard of it is that battery operated TPMS are still relatively new. I fully expect to start seeing people with '04 4Runners (first year of TMPS for us) posting about failing batteries within the next few years if not sooner.

 

[message]

Figure the distance from your rear/spare tire to the TPMS system, which is behind the glove box is about 6 or 7 feet? That is plenty space to read and/or fool a TPMS system whether it be driving through a toll booth or some punk hackers passing you in another vehicle.
I'm curious as to the actual range of the TPMS system since it does run on RF.

 

[Jed]

Figure the distance from your rear/spare tire to the TPMS system, which is behind the glove box is about 6 or 7 feet? That is plenty space to read and/or fool a TPMS system whether it be driving through a toll booth or some punk hackers passing you in another vehicle.
I'm curious as to the actual range of the TPMS system since it does run on RF.

I think the car would have to be stationary, at least for a minute or two. In the article, it was stated that the sensor transmit a signal every minute or so... Simply passing through a toll booth wouldn't be enough time to capture the data.Also, I remember reading somewhere that the sensors go into a sleep mode and stop transmitting when the tires are stationary for a while, so that might make it even MORE difficult for someone to capture TMPS data.

All in all, this was an interesting article. But it is just too far fetched to even worry about. I remember when people were complaining about EZPass being an invasion of privacy because people's routes could be traced. Although that is true, nobody seems to care much, other than maybe law enforcement when they are trying to prove someone's whereabouts at a specific time or location. It's really a non-issue for 99.9% of the public.

 

[Ryan_S]

All your tire pressures are belong to us! :zoom:

I'm all for keeping your data protected, but tire pressures? Really? Who cares.

 

[Koz]

The sensor transmits constantly...well, maybe not constantly, but in set time increments.

Also, Toyota already claims a life expectancy of 7 years for the TPMS batteries. This is published info in their own literature.

The reason you haven't heard of it is that battery operated TPMS are still relatively new. I fully expect to start seeing people with '04 4Runners (first year of TMPS for us) posting about failing batteries within the next few years if not sooner.

Jed,

What makes you think I have not heard of battery operated TPMS, I had a 05. What does make sense is, a transmitter that only uses power when the sensor is triggered by low pressure, especially with a sensor that the battery cannot be replaced (If that is the case).

Koz

 

[message]

I think the car would have to be stationary, at least for a minute or two. In the article, it was stated that the sensor transmit a signal every minute or so... Simply passing through a toll booth wouldn't be enough time to capture the data.Also, I remember reading somewhere that the sensors go into a sleep mode and stop transmitting when the tires are stationary for a while, so that might make it even MORE difficult for someone to capture TMPS data.

All in all, this was an interesting article. But it is just too far fetched to even worry about. I remember when people were complaining about EZPass being an invasion of privacy because people's routes could be traced. Although that is true, nobody seems to care much, other than maybe law enforcement when they are trying to prove someone's whereabouts at a specific time or location. It's really a non-issue for 99.9% of the public.

According to those that have compromised the system TPMS is activated, and transmits to the RF receiver when tire rotation exceeds 20mph. This RF receiver is the same receiver that talks to your key fob and is in direct connection with your vehicles ECU.
Sure this may all seem far fetched but unless auto makers do something to encrypt this system I believe more compromises are in the near future.

More info:
Defcon: Hacking Tire Pressure Monitors Remotely | NetworkWorld.com Community
and
FFwd to 3:45 YouTube - Ed Whitacre Steps Down - Autoline Daily 455
Rutgers University - iPod touch used to control and trigger false alarms on your dash

 

[Koz]

You will soon see battery-less direct sensor systems which require zero maintenance and are very reliable.

Koz

 

[li_runner]

I can tell you for sure our TPMS sensors are battery powered, and those batteries are not replaceable. Your only options are to replace entire sensors for $128 each + instalation (reprograming the TPMS ecu the new sensor id). To me another great way for dealerships to make lots of money, I disabled my system after finding that (3) count them 3 went bad somehow. For a proposed cost of $768 installed.... yeah right.

I think a lot of members will love grounding out the TPMS system in the future to get that dang light to stop winking at them.

 

[Koz]

To me another great way for dealerships to make lots of money, I disabled my system after finding that (3) count them 3 went bad somehow. For a proposed cost of $768 installed.... yeah right.

I think a lot of members will love grounding out the TPMS system in the future to get that dang light to stop winking at them.

I would do the same thing, I still check my tires once a week with the sensors. It's nice to have but it is not worth that money.

Koz

 

[Jed]

Jed,

What makes you think I have not heard of battery operated TPMS, I had a 05. What does make sense is, a transmitter that only uses power when the sensor is triggered by low pressure, especially with a sensor that the battery cannot be replaced (If that is the case).

Koz

That's not what I said. I was replying to your statement that you haven't heard of a battery failure on a TPMS....not that you haven't heard of a battery operated TPMS. And the reason that you haven't heard of battery failures is that they are still relatively new. The 4Runner first got them in '04, which means the oldest ones are about seven model years old now. Based upon Toyota's seven year estimate for battery life, we will probably start seeing some posts about TPMS battery failures before too long.

Like I said, the sensors don't just transmit when pressure is low. Look it up for yourself if you doubt that...

 

[Jed]

You will soon see battery-less direct sensor systems which require zero maintenance and are very reliable.

Koz

They already had that type of TPMS before we had the current battery operated ones. The early TPMS used the wheel speed sensors for the ABS to determine if a tire was low on pressure. The idea is that a tire that is low will have a different overall diameter and a different rotational speed. Then they moved to the individual sensors in each wheel. As for the future, who knows?

 

[Koz]

They already had that type of TPMS before we had the current battery operated ones. The early TPMS used the wheel speed sensors for the ABS to determine if a tire was low on pressure. The idea is that a tire that is low will have a different overall diameter and a different rotational speed. Then they moved to the individual sensors in each wheel. As for the future, who knows?

That was the indirect type. The new battery-free ones (Direct type) will use the movement of the wheel to generate power.

Koz

 

[810moto]

i wonder, and i know there most likely is, a way to get rid of that stupid tire light on my dash. i no longer have tpms on any wheels and want to make the tpms light go away.
any ideas of a simple way to get this done?

 

[li_runner]

i wonder, and i know there most likely is, a way to get rid of that stupid tire light on my dash. i no longer have tpms on any wheels and want to make the tpms light go away.
any ideas of a simple way to get this done?

Yes, that is why we are talking about it. Reference here. You don't have to install a switch you only have to ground the pink black wire coming from the TPMS ECU under the passenger side glove compartment.