Traction Control OFF??

[HowardJ]

Alright fellas, I can't figure it out.
Can I not turn the traction control completely off?? It is driving me nuts! I would rather spin tires than hear electronic clicking and cutting off my gas..
How can I fishtail with that.. I can't

Pull a fuse?
I'm lost.. This is my first "electronic" 4WD system
I'm missing my wrangler "/

please help

 

[Synister]

What year is your truck? I think it was 07+ that Toyota gave you the ability to turn everything off, before that you had to go in and do a small mod, cant remember what though. If you press and hold the VSC off button for 3 sec, on newer vehicles it will completely disable the system.

 

[HowardJ]

2005 "/

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I don't believe the 4Runner utilizes a gas cut-off for its VSC, TRAC systems. Or at least I haven't come accross it yet, Been full throttle spinning tires up a sloshy mud hill before and I had the system clamp the tires but never cut my throttle.

Going into 4Lo Center Differential Locked will disable the system and engage something refered to as ATRAC. To completely disable the traction control system is going to be to pull the ABS fuse, but that will affect your braking system somewhat. Or perform a modification to the wiring harness like some members.

Personally I would say get used to the system, I was like you, very very skittish about electronic nannies vs mechanical systems. But Toyota did a fairly good job on the system, it helps a lot more than it hurts offroading from my experience. Granted I'd love to burn out here and there, but hard to do with the V8 4WD.

I would try to learn how the system works and its way of thinking so you can better understand how its going to kick in. Once you understand how it works, its a pretty useful toy to have, that being said I am also in the process of playing with alternative ways to disable the system should I need that out of Center Differential Lock.

 

[natehack5]

This is what you need:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...8882-new-fine-grained-vsc-off-mod-v6-1gr.html

Getting it soon and I am excited to be able to choose if I want to have an electronic nanny or not...

 

[BlackWorksInc]

This is what you need:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...8882-new-fine-grained-vsc-off-mod-v6-1gr.html

Getting it soon and I am excited to be able to choose if I want to have an electronic nanny or not...

That looks like a neat set-up.

 

[TRDCal]

I don't believe the 4Runner utilizes a gas cut-off for its VSC, TRAC systems.

Seriously...where have you been?. Members have been complaining about the engine dethrottling from VSC for years. That's the whole point of Kliv's VSC off mod. When the truck senses its sliding, it applies brakes to a certain wheel and cuts the engine throttle for like 5 secs or something like that. Not that I agree but thats why people argue its dangerous because if your trying to pull out into traffic and VSC kicks in then your a sitting duck because it cuts off throttle input.

Also simply locking the center diff will disable it, no need to engage 4lo. Altho inorder to turn on ATRAC you may need to be in 4lo, I'm not sure about that one tho.

Follow the link natehack posted. Thats the mod I have in my truck, worth every penny!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Seriously...where have you been?. Members have been complaining about the engine dethrottling from VSC for years. That's the whole point of Kliv's VSC off mod. When the truck senses its sliding, it applies brakes to a certain wheel and cuts the engine throttle for like 5 secs or something like that. Not that I agree but thats why people argue its dangerous because if your trying to pull out into traffic and VSC kicks in then your a sitting duck because it cuts off throttle input.

Also simply locking the center diff will disable it, no need to engage 4lo. Altho inorder to turn on ATRAC you may need to be in 4lo, I'm not sure about that one tho.

Follow the link natehack posted. Thats the mod I have in my truck, worth every penny!

I can admit when I'm wrong , I try to remember everything about most every car I work on; but its kind of hard to remember it all. Just because I work on Toyotas (mostly every European brand these days... :redbrick: ) doesn't mean I know EVERY little detail about the cars, so I am sure occasionally I am wrong in my advice and I apologize in advance for that.

I personally have not noticed a significant reduction in throttle use on my V8 4WD, but I have not had it kick on during normal driving situations enough to notice. Last time it kicked in was going up some slimy mud on a crappy hill in 4Lo WOT.

I'm not surprised that they do cut the throttle, had an old '90 LS400 that had a dual throttle body set-up just to restrict engine power for traction control.

Edit- I am looking at the information provided by Toyota on the operation of their VSC, TRAC, and ATRAC systems and they do not mention a throttle control as I had originally thought (in fact it seems to be variable and not always active when it engages, depending on which system kicks in.) I also including a the failsafe chart in case someone wants to play with disabling specific systems for specific results (I had an idea to make a multi-mode switch for selecting which systems I wanted active, so this could help others with similar ideas.)
View attachment CI__STSDES_.pdf (Page 5 briefly describes that TRAC is the system that interacts with the ECM to "Control Engine Torque.)
View attachment CI__FSCHART_.pdf

 

[TRDCal]

No worries Blackworks, I wasn't trying to put you down, plus you covered your statment by saying

Or at least I haven't come accross it yet

. So no harm done.

Let me explain the system. VSC is designed to keep the vehicle going in a straight line, it doesn't care about wheel spin. You could be spinning tires like a crazy man but if your back end never swings out, it will not kick in. The system takes readings from a yaw sensor and a steering position sensor. So if the yaw sensor senses a sideways motion when the steering position sensor shows the steering wheel straight then that tells the system the vehicle is in a slide/skid. So to combat this, the systems applies the brake on a certain wheel (I think its the one on the inside of the skid but I forget) and its cuts engine throttle and throttle input for a predetermined amount of time (3 or 5 secs or something like that). Anyways, thats all of the top of my head, let me see if I can find it in writing so it doesn't seem like i'm blowing steam out of my ass.

Hope that makes sense, I can see how you'd get confused since you work on these things everyday and they all have weird and wonderful systems so its nearly impossible to remember how they all work. I just know because my 4runner is my baby and I get pleasure from knowing how its systems work. Call me crazy but that's the truth.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I agree with what you're saying TRD, sounds pretty spot on.

I think the only difference is that Toyota splits those portions into VSC and TRAC (They specifically list TRAC as managing communication with the ECU to "control engine torque) according to their literature. Versus most other manufacturers who seem to slip it all into one TCS/VSC/TRAC/ESP label. If you do find some better detail that'd be great to have. This was really the best "description/operation" of the VSC/TRAC/ABS system that I could find on TIS and as you see from the .PDF is really vague... and I'd like to actually study how they decided their logic for each sub-system (been toying with the idea of somehow marrying the FJ's more aggressive ATRAC programming with the 4Runner's Skid Control ECU...)

 

[Synister]

been toying with the idea of somehow marrying the FJ's more aggressive ATRAC programming with the 4Runner's Skid Control ECU...)

I would be extremely interested in knowing specifically what components separate a 4th Gen TE from other models, specifically the ATRAC capability. As near as I can tell, the brake booster and master cylinder unit are all the same so I continue to be confused as to where the intelligence that drives the amazing ATRAC switch in my truck comes from. If there was some way to swap in a specific FJ unit, be it ABS controller or otherwise, that could provide the level of ATRAC that FJs and TE's enjoy, the community may benefit from this knowledge.

To the OP, whats been posted so far is a pretty accurate description of the system, especially the part about TRAC being the culprit as far as engine throttle management goes. Unfortunately the electronic traction aides on older 4th gens somewhat undermine the natural traction seeking abilities of the Torsen, especially in slick winter conditions. On the super optimistic, glass-half-full side of things, using/exercising your center diff lock in these conditions will likely lessen the number of complaints from owners whose diff locks dont work!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I would be extremely interested in knowing specifically what components separate a 4th Gen TE from other models, specifically the ATRAC capability. As near as I can tell, the brake booster and master cylinder unit are all the same so I continue to be confused as to where the intelligence that drives the amazing ATRAC switch in my truck comes from. If there was some way to swap in a specific FJ unit, be it ABS controller or otherwise, that could provide the level of ATRAC that FJs and TE's enjoy, the community may benefit from this knowledge.

To the OP, whats been posted so far is a pretty accurate description of the system, especially the part about TRAC being the culprit as far as engine throttle management goes. Unfortunately the electronic traction aides on older 4th gens somewhat undermine the natural traction seeking abilities of the Torsen, especially in slick winter conditions. On the super optimistic, glass-half-full side of things, using/exercising your center diff lock in these conditions will likely lessen the number of complaints from owners whose diff locks don't work!

This is exactly what I have been wondering, I really think the only difference is programming in the Skid Control ECM. As all the hardware is the same for the vehicles, its just the tables that control it are different apparently. If this is true then theoretically we should be able to swap the ECM with our 4Runner's unit and gain the more Aggressive ATRAC functionality. The issue comes into these sections;

-Is the Skid Control Module the exact same box? With the Same Connector?
-Does the wiring match up properly?
-Does the Skid Control Module contain VIN information and thus when swapped will it flag an error in the system?
-Since the SCM comunicates with the ECM does this mean we need specifically V6 SCUs to V6 4Runners, ect?
-Does ATRAC live in some form in other modules and thus requires more than just the SCM to employ properly?

I haven't honestly been able to answer those questions yet and I don't have a used FJ Cruiser to keep around the shop and play with to see what works and what won't.

 

[AleksV]

Never really read this mod trough, it's not nearly as complicated as I thought.

 

[JB.]

I personally have not noticed a significant reduction in throttle use on my V8 4WD

You just need to find the right surface and mash the pedal. The engine just sort of makes a low, pulsing chug sound and the truck goes nowhere.

I intentionally stuck my wheels in an icy ditch once in hi range (rears on ice too). Tried to back out and heard the boing of a quick attempt at brake traction control and then the engine dethrottled and just kind of chugged, quietly and rhythmically. I kept the pedal down just to see what would happen, and every so often there would be an attempt to spin the wheel followed by a quick brake pulse and then the no power chugging again. Rinse, repeat. After that, I locked the diff and got right out.

That said, I've tested the acceleration locked vs unlocked with various pedal inputs on snow and ice many times and, most of the time, unlocked will get me up to speed as fast as locked. An exception can be a full pedal mash, which leads me to conclude that people's complaints about what they feel is a safety hazard in VSC engine dethrottling is due either to driving technique or a difference in sensitivity, for whatever reason, of VSC in various trucks. I wonder sometimes if the sensitivity didn't change, say, with the '06 refresh and perhaps also with the appearance of the '08 VSC off switch.

As for which system manages engine output -- I don't think Toyota has been consistent in how they use the terms TRAC ATRAC VSC and it may well be that TRAC is the right term in present time, but in my '05 manual, TRAC is reserved for 2wd and VSC seems to be credited with controlling engine output in 4wd trucks. Some quotes:

Use the center differential lock system if
your wheels get stuck in a ditch, or when
you are driving on a slippery or bumpy
surface. When the center differential is
locked, the vehicle stability control system
is automatically turned off and the center
differential lock and “VSC OFF” indicator
lights come on because the function that
controls engine performance interferes
with the process of freeing your wheels
-------------------------------------------------
“VSC TRAC” warning light
This light warns that there is a problem
somewhere in the following.

Vehicle stability control system

Traction control system
(two- wheel drive models)

Active traction control system
(four- wheel drive models)

 

[BlackWorksInc]

There's a link to a thread I posted in another thread about ATRAC, ect. that explains that Toyota has not been consistent with their terminology at all.

 

[TRDCal]

I'm having a hard tme finding the thread I was talking about. It had links to pdf files (for Toyota manuals) about all the safety systems the 4runner has and the additions to those systems over the years of production. It talking about VSC, Trac, Atrac, abs, ebd, airbags etc....basically all the safety features. Has anyone else seen this thread I'm talking about?

 

[footdoc]

I remember the first time i pulled onto a main road after picking my 4R up in from its desert home. I thought something was seriously wrong with it. I had just sold my 3rd gen (for $1k less than i paid for it 4.5 years earlier!) and was not anticipating that drastic cut in power. I ultimately regained control, but was nearly hit, and it almost made me twinkle in panties.

The idea about of trying to learn how the vehicle thinks is a good one. I have not been able to predict response after 2 years of owning this truck. I love it, but the VSC/TRAC and possibly the ABS have got to go. Grew up on icy roads and learned how to drive them in a chevy truck w/o ABS. I STILL have the instinct to pump!!!

Im going to have my brakes looked at tomorrow, but if the way they are operating is normal, I need to pull the fuse. My stopping distance is way too long (probably to aggressive switching from a sporty to a 4WD) but these 3 attributes really, really make me miss my 3rd gen...

 

[footdoc]

Couldn't wait til tomorrow...

Looked for the ABS fuse, of which I found 2, perhaps 3. pulled the fuse for the ABS MTR. Desired effect achieved, until the high pitched constant tone began. turned off, then back on. 15 seconds of bliss, then the tone. It's a balmy 5 degrees here in Zion and i was down the street a bit, so i replaced the fuse and re-entered nanny mode. I do find it weird that you can turn off the side airbags, but no button factory installed to turn off the VSC, TRAC, etc.

 

[sonerick]

leave the gas cap loose and start the truck. won't this disable vsc/trac/atrac/miscellaneous electronic nannies? It might even leave abs on.

edit: or unplug one of the speed sensor wires on either side of the front end in the engine bay. this will also disable all of the electronic nannies, incl. abs. no high-pitched noises either.

 

[TRDCal]

There's also a plug on the brake reservoir or master cylinder, somewhere around there that you can pull which will disable the nannies.

Personally I don't find they have ever put me in a spot which I felt endangered. If VSC kicked in when you were trying to pull onto a road, that's because you were too aggressive on the throttle.

Once I was driving on in the winter and hit a patch of ice so I tried to coast through it but the back end of the truck began to swing out. I was heading for the ditch with no control right when VSC kicked in, straightened me out and I proceed home to clean the brown spot of my seat . While at times it can be a pain (that's why I installed a VSC off button) it does have uses.