gamefreakgc
Elite Member
If it helps, running the vehicle while doing the bleed can be all that's needed for this issue. Unless the issue is air trapped in the master cylinder.
Tundra Brake Upgrade
- Thread starter ArmArak
- Start date
If it helps, running the vehicle while doing the bleed can be all that's needed for this issue. Unless the issue is air trapped in the master cylinder.
If I had to guess nothing changed after the dealer service department bled the brakes. Softer pedal and more pedal travel is the cost of the TBU install. Its interesting that after some people even swapped master cylinder's nothing changed. I'd keep the brakes OEM, I don't think TBU provides enough benefit to deal with the issues of living with them.
brillo_76
Elite Member
I have zero issues with my TBU. I run the 199 mm wide rotor variant of the caliper. They even use the same pads as stock.
I also haven't had the rotors warp after this change ever again either.
What can happen is your hubs go out of true, and this will correct that issue.
If folks want to change the or not, that's up to them.
I know, in my case, with rotors not making 6 months to a year without warping no matter what I did.
The change stopped this issue for me.
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Ed_C
Senior Member
Did you mean pad, not rotor? 199mm is the pad width for the smaller SW13E calipers while larger 13WG/13WL calipers use 231mm wide pads, there were no changes in rotor diameter and thickness when Toyota went to larger rotors in the later year first-gen Tundras
brillo_76
Elite Member
Correct. Brake pad the difference is wider rotor in the smaller tundra calipers vs stock.
The longer calipers are different. You notice the pad backing plate is different. Longer backing plate and longer calipers. Plus they will not fit most 16 inch aluminum rims. These being the longer tundra calipers.
I have used stock brake pads on the smaller tundra/sequoia calipers and they seem to fit my rims well..
My only reason for upgrading is to eliminate my warping rotor issues and that it does.
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Ed_C
Senior Member
Correct. Brake pad the difference is wider rotor in the smaller tundra calipers vs stock.
The longer calipers are different. You notice the pad backing plate is different. Longer backing plate and longer calipers. Plus they will not fit most 16 inch aluminum rims. These being the longer tundra calipers.
I have used stock brake pads on the smaller tundra/sequoia calipers and they seem to fit my rims well..
I know about Tundra calipers, owned my 2000 Tundra since new
: Originally had the smaller SW13E then reman'd WG or WL (don't remember offhand), I do remember doing some minor trimming to the backing plates. Those remans are seizing up now and have a pair of brand-new (but aftermarket) Raybestos 13WLs to install this week.
brillo_76
Elite Member
I know about Tundra calipers, owned my 2000 Tundra since new
I prefer Raybestos brake pads and rotors. I believe the smaller tundra are SW13E. [ I could be wrong] My front backing plates are gone. The rust belt ate them. :[
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Ed_C
Senior Member
Same here. I've been using their Element3 (formerly EHT) pads and rotors on other vehicles for a while. I've had good luck with their new calipers on my beater Honda so hopefully the Tundra ones will fare just as well.
Correct. The earliest Tundras had the smaller calipers, forgot what model year they changed to the larger calipers. The 13WG was the first of the larger calipers then the 13WL is the latest version of them.
My parents' GX470 backing plates are getting there :biggrin1: The 4Runner and Tundra ones are in decent shape
Last edited:
revox92
New member
I know about Tundra calipers, owned my 2000 Tundra since new
My neighbor recently acquired this 2000 Tundra and he's looking to get Raybestos rotors and pads. Great to hear it is a good option. The tires are due for replacement so he ordered the toyo tires from 4Wheelonline and he'll have them installed next week.
brillo_76
Elite Member
I don't have that issue unless my rear brakes are not adjusted up.
Maybe I am not as fussy. I also only use the smaller of the TBU calipers too.
Are your rear brakes adjusted up. Is the emergency brake working properly?
Got all the air out of your master cylinder and abs unit?
Also which braking system?The old style or the new 01 /02.
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gamefreakgc
Elite Member
Long pedal travel is normally air in the lines. It took 3 different bleeding attempts to get all the air out of the lines for me, done over a few years. Most recently I replaced my old cracked rubber + braided lines for new braided lines and finally got a pocket of air that was trapped up at the ABS module. That's the trouble spot.
Try bleeding with the engine running with a friend helping and you'll hopefully get the last out of it. You'll also want to adjust the rear drums so they just barely drag and then back it up a few notches on the gear (you can adjust from the back of the drum by removing the rubber plug and use a screwdriver). Then like mentioned before do some hard stops using only the e-brake to the the rear drums engages as soon as you put any pressure on the brake pedal.
The long/soft brake pedal syndrome can be solved it just takes a bit of determination.
gamefreakgc
Elite Member
Yeah it was just one bubble in a single line for me, passenger front. Once I got it out my brakes have never been better! Now they start to engage with just slight pressure on the pedal and just resting my foot on the pedal with no extra pressure brings it to a full stop.
RedbeardPete
New member
Raising this from the grave because it's about time I did something about this because I've never done any towing until now that we bought a boat...
I did the TBU in 2016 on my 2002 2WD 4Runner with these 13WL calipers: POWER STOP S2712 (New) Red Powder Coated, Front; with Caliper Casting # 13WL
I did stainless front lines and some good quality slotted rotors (can't find order details on those item) that have never warped in all this time. I used Wagner ceramic pads with 5.3" plate length (so it says). Is this the 231 y'all are talking about? I did read in this thread some ppl having less/no issues with the 199, and maybe more issues with the 231, whatever that means.
I have pretty bad soft pedal, and it's been this way since I did the TBU in 2016 and I've just gotten used to it. In 2016, I pressure bled the heck out of all four corners. I don't know why I would have any air stuck up high, but haven't tried ABS cycling yet.
Truck has 328,000 miles on it now (probably 180k back then) so I wanted to suspect the brake master may need rebuilding, but that also might not be the issue. Have you guys seen there are no master cylinders available for these trucks, and the prices for the e ones that are!? ...that's what happens when cars start getting too complex, but enough digression.
I just flushed all the brake fluid with a vacuum bleeder. I just changed the rear brake shoes that were worn down to 1/16" on the front shoes :yuck:, and adjusted them. I still have the same soft pedal.
Soft pedal: when the pedal gets to the engagement point, the brakes bite well, but it's like halfway down the pedal travel. If you do 1 pump on the pedal, it engages higher up, EXACTLY like there's air in line or rear brakes aren't adjusted up. If I rapidly, repeatedly press the brake pedal, it firms up a LOT.
So, it's either air, rear brake adjustment, or something inherently problematic with having more front brake caliper volume than this system was designed for. I came here hoping someone would know the trick for this. Halp!
I did the TBU in 2016 on my 2002 2WD 4Runner with these 13WL calipers: POWER STOP S2712 (New) Red Powder Coated, Front; with Caliper Casting # 13WL
I did stainless front lines and some good quality slotted rotors (can't find order details on those item) that have never warped in all this time. I used Wagner ceramic pads with 5.3" plate length (so it says). Is this the 231 y'all are talking about? I did read in this thread some ppl having less/no issues with the 199, and maybe more issues with the 231, whatever that means.
I have pretty bad soft pedal, and it's been this way since I did the TBU in 2016 and I've just gotten used to it. In 2016, I pressure bled the heck out of all four corners. I don't know why I would have any air stuck up high, but haven't tried ABS cycling yet.
Truck has 328,000 miles on it now (probably 180k back then) so I wanted to suspect the brake master may need rebuilding, but that also might not be the issue. Have you guys seen there are no master cylinders available for these trucks, and the prices for the e ones that are!? ...that's what happens when cars start getting too complex, but enough digression.
I just flushed all the brake fluid with a vacuum bleeder. I just changed the rear brake shoes that were worn down to 1/16" on the front shoes :yuck:, and adjusted them. I still have the same soft pedal.
Soft pedal: when the pedal gets to the engagement point, the brakes bite well, but it's like halfway down the pedal travel. If you do 1 pump on the pedal, it engages higher up, EXACTLY like there's air in line or rear brakes aren't adjusted up. If I rapidly, repeatedly press the brake pedal, it firms up a LOT.
So, it's either air, rear brake adjustment, or something inherently problematic with having more front brake caliper volume than this system was designed for. I came here hoping someone would know the trick for this. Halp!
phattyduck
Elite Member
It took me two cycles of ABS activation then bleeding to get back to a good feeling pedal with the larger Tundra calipers. The 01/02 brake system likely has the same challenge as my '99, despite the different design. There is no way to activate the ABS via OBD-II or similar - the factory tool plugged directly into the ABS system, so you just have to get out on some dirt, etc. and get an ABS activation.
-Charlie
RedbeardPete
New member
Thanks for the input!! I did a good 6-7 full hard 50-10mph cycles this evening. I believe I got very good activation of ABS. I have CEL, VSC, and TRAC lights on because of a stupid evap leak I can't find. Any chance that would hinder anything?... I wouldn't think so.
I swear I got a higher pedal that didn't pump up now, but I'll have to double check and verify tomorrow with a fresh foot and muscle memory reset.
I should add that it can't be rear brake shoe adjustment because the pedal feel was identical with handbrake on or off, so it's either inherent to the MC being undersized for the front calipers, the fact I haven't yet replaced the rear hose, or air. If I ever definitively solve this, will report back.
I swear I got a higher pedal that didn't pump up now, but I'll have to double check and verify tomorrow with a fresh foot and muscle memory reset.
I should add that it can't be rear brake shoe adjustment because the pedal feel was identical with handbrake on or off, so it's either inherent to the MC being undersized for the front calipers, the fact I haven't yet replaced the rear hose, or air. If I ever definitively solve this, will report back.
phattyduck
Elite Member
There is an issue with the early ('96-'00) master cylinder where if you bleed the brakes in the wrong order (from the start with no/low fluid) that it can cause issues. See here:
This is due to the little bit on the side there that keeps pressure in the rear drums that needs to be set in the right position to function. I wonder if there is something similar with the 01/02 system? I know it is a bit more finicky with bleeding procedure.
-Charlie
RedbeardPete
New member
Interesting. Will check FSM later and report back (although may be late, heading into busy weekend).
I asked ChatGPT to distill this thread because it's a monster. I'm sure I referenced this back in 2016 when I did the upgrade:
Hard to find Specs, Info & Measurements on 231mm 13WL Tundra Calipers & Rotors
...and seems like ppl do like the 199mm better than the 231mm, not to mention, the pad surface area is the exact same!
ChatGPT results didn't reveal anything groundbreaking. I don't think converting to a vacuum booster and T100 or FJ80 MC is the answer unless you want warning lights always on.
___________________________________________________________
Common Causes and Solutions for a Spongy Brake Pedal
Incomplete Bleeding of the Brake System
Issue: Air trapped in the brake lines, master cylinder (MC), or ABS module can cause a spongy pedal.
Solution: Perform a thorough bleed of the entire brake system, ensuring all air is removed. Some users found that bleeding the ABS module was necessary to achieve a firm pedal feel.
Old or Contaminated Brake Fluid
Issue: Brake fluid absorbs moisture over time, reducing its effectiveness and leading to a softer pedal.
Solution: Flush the brake system and replace with fresh, high-quality DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluid.
Flexible Rubber Brake Lines
Issue: Stock rubber lines can expand under pressure, diminishing pedal firmness.
Solution: Upgrade to stainless steel braided brake lines, which resist expansion and provide a more consistent pedal feel.
Master Cylinder Capacity
Issue: The stock master cylinder may not provide sufficient volume for the larger calipers, resulting in increased pedal travel.
Solution: Some users have considered upgrading to a larger master cylinder from vehicles like the T100 or FJ80 to match the increased caliper size.
Rear Brake Adjustment
Issue: Improperly adjusted rear brakes can affect overall braking performance and pedal feel.
Solution: Ensure rear drum brakes are correctly adjusted and functioning properly.
️ Additional Tips
Caliper Selection: Some users suggest that the 199mm (13WE) calipers may offer a firmer pedal feel compared to the 231mm (13WL) calipers, due to their smaller size requiring less fluid volume.
Toyota 4Runner Forum
Brake Bias Considerations: Upgrading the front brakes without addressing rear brake performance can lead to an imbalance. Some have explored installing a brake bias valve to fine-tune the front-to-rear braking ratio.
Component Quality: Using high-quality components, such as OEM pads and rotors, can contribute to better braking performance and pedal feel.
Toyota 4Runner Forum [4Runners.com]
I asked ChatGPT to distill this thread because it's a monster. I'm sure I referenced this back in 2016 when I did the upgrade:
Hard to find Specs, Info & Measurements on 231mm 13WL Tundra Calipers & Rotors
...and seems like ppl do like the 199mm better than the 231mm, not to mention, the pad surface area is the exact same!
ChatGPT results didn't reveal anything groundbreaking. I don't think converting to a vacuum booster and T100 or FJ80 MC is the answer unless you want warning lights always on.
___________________________________________________________
Common Causes and Solutions for a Spongy Brake Pedal
Incomplete Bleeding of the Brake System
Issue: Air trapped in the brake lines, master cylinder (MC), or ABS module can cause a spongy pedal.
Solution: Perform a thorough bleed of the entire brake system, ensuring all air is removed. Some users found that bleeding the ABS module was necessary to achieve a firm pedal feel.
Old or Contaminated Brake Fluid
Issue: Brake fluid absorbs moisture over time, reducing its effectiveness and leading to a softer pedal.
Solution: Flush the brake system and replace with fresh, high-quality DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluid.
Flexible Rubber Brake Lines
Issue: Stock rubber lines can expand under pressure, diminishing pedal firmness.
Solution: Upgrade to stainless steel braided brake lines, which resist expansion and provide a more consistent pedal feel.
Master Cylinder Capacity
Issue: The stock master cylinder may not provide sufficient volume for the larger calipers, resulting in increased pedal travel.
Solution: Some users have considered upgrading to a larger master cylinder from vehicles like the T100 or FJ80 to match the increased caliper size.
Rear Brake Adjustment
Issue: Improperly adjusted rear brakes can affect overall braking performance and pedal feel.
Solution: Ensure rear drum brakes are correctly adjusted and functioning properly.
️ Additional Tips
Caliper Selection: Some users suggest that the 199mm (13WE) calipers may offer a firmer pedal feel compared to the 231mm (13WL) calipers, due to their smaller size requiring less fluid volume.
Toyota 4Runner Forum
Brake Bias Considerations: Upgrading the front brakes without addressing rear brake performance can lead to an imbalance. Some have explored installing a brake bias valve to fine-tune the front-to-rear braking ratio.
Component Quality: Using high-quality components, such as OEM pads and rotors, can contribute to better braking performance and pedal feel.
Toyota 4Runner Forum [4Runners.com]
AFT3R5H0CK
Junior Member
Yep I did it because I tow for my lawn mowing business and there's definitely a difference.
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