wallytoo
Member
how do you purport to protect the kids at the schools? (since they are gun-free zones)
TX - Santa Fe High School Shooting
- Thread starter RCFJ
- Start date
how do you purport to protect the kids at the schools? (since they are gun-free zones)
Hepar
New member
I wish I had an answer, but I don't. In a perfect world (or I guess country in this case) I would funnel far more of our tax dollars to our education system. I think a reduction in class sizes as well as more resources for teachers and administration when it comes to counseling and mental health would go a long way.
I would also try and have solutions that get our youth more detached from their screens and more attached to each other. I think a contributing factor to all of this mess is that too much of our children's interactions (as well as adults) are via a phone or computer. Which takes away a large humanity aspect to our relationships. It's easier to take lives when you have little to no attachment to them.
As far as the gun aspect. Would it be too much to ask gun owners with children to have to maybe go through a few more steps to ensure their firearms aren't easily accessible by their children? I think that alone would have a strong effect on the number of accidental shootings as well as suicides, let alone any future school shooting.
Gunslinger-13
New member
To your last paragraph- how would you specifically ensure this? No access to firearms for people who have children and own them?
First, you'd have to have a registry of everyone who owned them and track who had children. Then you'd have to expand a branch of the BATFE and other relatad agencies tasked with tracking it all and enforcing it all.
The level of intrusion on privacy alone is disgusting. The amount of .gov resources would be gigantic.
And it STILL wouldn't stop anyone who was determined from doing harm to others from doing so.
Most gun safes are just a small deterrent. It is fairly easy to get inside with the most basic of power tools.
But wait, they don't even need to go to the trouble of that, there are tons of ways to inflict carnage.
Gasoline, glass bottle, cotton rag and a lighter. $10.00 at any corner in the nation.
That's one of many easily obtained and easily made devices that would do mass damage.
Ever see the cover of rolling stone with the Boston bomber on it? They glorified that little prick communist pun on his shirt and all with that cover shot. Other phucked up kids copy cat that shit for fame and recognition.
If the media stopped plastering photos and shouting the names of these evil bastards and the courts didn't allow them to be alive and in some cases released later in their lives- maybe we'd get somewhere.
To your other points. The real fix is the education system itself. You can't throw tax dollars at an outdated and broken smoking pile of turd and pretend that will solve anything, because it won't and it hasn't for quite some time.
We need real reform of the education system and it starts will allowing vouchers for people to decide where to spend their money on their kids and have a greater hand in raising their children at home.
The state has proven time and time and time and time and time again that it ruins everything it gets it's hands into.
Same goes for how they should be run fiscally. Look at banks. We guard our money with armed men and our children with "gun free zone" and "drug free zone" signed.
If schools were run properly and we got away from this Prussian BS system of education itself, we'd see dramatic change over time.
If we stopped over-supporting other countries; and we support them ALL militarily and financially in some way or another, and ended the war on drugs- we could use that funding to be split to pay for a ton of other stuff that we NEED here at home.
Guns are not, nor have they ever been the problem. Look to history. Every government throughout history has evolved on an incredibly similar path. Take arms away from the commoners, gain total control, genocide, eventual failure and revolt. It's happened so many times and will continue to as long as people are asleep en masse.
Edited to add:
I agree that the mediated realities people are focusing on are quite damaging. For children and adults alike.
I'd gladly sit down and enjoy a beer and some real face to face time debate with every person on this forum and otherwise. That's where people don't hide behind the mask of a screen name and mediated interactions- and just get to be themselves.
It would be more productive.
We are so detached. It shows. So divided by the powers that be.
Ask yourself, why?
Look to the past and see what's played out before over and over again.
We have few realistic options.
1) Stagnate
2) Unify
3) Balkanize
4) Fight each other in civil war
5) Continue on insane path to one of the above
Reality is a ***** and your .gov/the state isn't going to save you.
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Inv4drZm
Senior Member
As an aside.
I hate it when people somehow assume history won't repeat itself, "this time around." "Its different this time". "If we just had a little/gave a little more control things would be better."
BrianSD_42
New member
Not locked yet. wow. So many other threads are locked.
I'm wondering how many folks have complained to the MODs about other members offending them. The complain until it is locked theory unfortunately appears to work.
Frankly I think the MODs should publish a quarterly list of names of everyone who repeatedly makes complaints that do not meet the standard of a true rules violation. These complaints waste time and patience.
I assume it comes from both sides of a debate, not a single political orientation. But it is pretty annoying, these folks who cry/complain in the shadows about other members here on T4R.
My comment isn't towards any one member. I have no idea who is doing all the whining and crying via PM/reports, only the mods know this. But it has been stated in the past several times that this is a major reason why the heated threads are getting locked.
No one is entitled to not be offended. If you don't like a thread just don't read it anymore AND don't come back (to that thread).
I'm wondering how many folks have complained to the MODs about other members offending them. The complain until it is locked theory unfortunately appears to work.
Frankly I think the MODs should publish a quarterly list of names of everyone who repeatedly makes complaints that do not meet the standard of a true rules violation. These complaints waste time and patience.
I assume it comes from both sides of a debate, not a single political orientation. But it is pretty annoying, these folks who cry/complain in the shadows about other members here on T4R.
My comment isn't towards any one member. I have no idea who is doing all the whining and crying via PM/reports, only the mods know this. But it has been stated in the past several times that this is a major reason why the heated threads are getting locked.
No one is entitled to not be offended. If you don't like a thread just don't read it anymore AND don't come back (to that thread).
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wadle5
New member
Why not first start with metal detectors. Seems to be cheaper than a resource officer and are pretty idiot proof. A teacher monitoring a metal detector is better than a teacher blowing a whistle. Or you could always have vet volunteers?
So about the topic???? Haha
Hepar
New member
Well, you could have a small list of various ways that would be considered keeping a firearm "safe" with the addition that if any of those aren't followed and your child ends up using that firearm to do any sort of harm (be it to themselves or others) that you could be held liable. I don't see that as being too intrusive nor something that requires any government funds.
But yes, if someone really wants to cause harm they will. Those are not the ones I am worried about. Like I said before, there is a yearly list of very preventable gun deaths (and other related things) that many could have been avoided had the firearms been stored with some caution.
For myself I had two childhood incidents. One, a good friend my freshman year of high school committed suicide. Another good friend committed an armed robbery at 16 and went to jail for 15 years. Both used firearms that were easily accessible from their parents. Yes, if either of them really wanted to commit those acts, they most likely could have figured out another way. But it certainly wouldn't have hurt their chances had it been a bit harder than going into their parents room and reaching under their beds.
I completely agree that the system itself needs an entire overhaul. But it doesn't change the fact that it is still a system that is grossly underfunded.
[MENTION=122184]Gunslinger-13[/MENTION], I also agree with you here 100%. Very rarely do you ever see anything of substance evolve from topics like this online. People more come to speak their mind and stand there ground. In person it is far more likely to have a productive conversation.
Which in my opinion is the only way anything like this is going to get solved. It is going to require a large collective of people from all sides to get together and have some very tough and uncomfortable conversations.
The problem we have now is just as [MENTION=65101]BrianSD_42[/MENTION] eluded to above. Too many people from the ends who get offended, angry, etc etc from the other.
I do feel though that with every incident like this one, that there are more people from each of those ends who are more willing to have that conversation. Maybe someday it will be enough to get something productive done. Not holding my breath!
Hepar
New member
Don't worry. I already reported him.
BrianSD_42
New member
Well as others have already stated a lot of these incidents involve children using their parents guns. Perhaps a law that makes it a felony to grant unsupervised access to minors with stricter penalties if those guns are used in a crime. I'm sure this would get a lot of pushback but I always think we are better off at least having the conversation / debate.
It is a crime to buy porn and give access (eg hand them or leave around the house) to your kids but somehow it isn't a crime to give access to guns and bullets. I'm sure there are folks who would be against this but I think better controlling access to minors is the direction we should look. Hey even in the military we don't let folks "just have access to guns", every gun is controlled by the armory and after watch you return the guns and they go under lock and key. For high school students and younger (those not 18) perhaps we should also keep the guns under lock and key.
There you go. Bring on the debate.
It is a crime to buy porn and give access (eg hand them or leave around the house) to your kids but somehow it isn't a crime to give access to guns and bullets. I'm sure there are folks who would be against this but I think better controlling access to minors is the direction we should look. Hey even in the military we don't let folks "just have access to guns", every gun is controlled by the armory and after watch you return the guns and they go under lock and key. For high school students and younger (those not 18) perhaps we should also keep the guns under lock and key.
There you go. Bring on the debate.
SomeDay
New member
"Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ip-why-doesnt-no-mass-shootings-a8230606.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ip-why-doesnt-no-mass-shootings-a8230606.html
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
I've heard for a short time somewhere on the east coast some state or city implemented a larger penalty for committing a crime with a firearm on your person or nearby in a car, etc. which decreased the amount of armed robberies and violent acts noticeably. Not that it would necessarily protect schools but I don't see why it wouldn't work well if implemented nationally.
nevada
Senior Member
wait, are we at war right now?
nevada
Senior Member
[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] for you and others, I just like to point out that every parent, or person that has a weapon stolen, and then used in a crime, those people are also victims. whether its locked in a safe, or in their home, if its taken without permission, it is theft.
wake_rider
New member
I bet you don't read much, but you should. Take a look at this study then get back to the group. Until then, quiet your typing; it's proving your ignorance.
https://sps.boisestate.edu/politicalscience/files/2018/02/Greatness.pdf
Gunslinger-13
New member
Texas has statutes/laws that punish parents for allowing their children access to firearms and use them in crimes. In this statute it is children under 17 and I believe the shooter was 17, so it may not apply.
Under Texas law, if a child under 17 years of age gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm (i.e., loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the chamber), a person is criminally liable if he or she, “with criminal negligence:”
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/child-...tion-in-texas/
That's the thing, to a crazy or evil person- laws don't matter and they will find a way to hurt others and go out in a blaze of glory and get their picture and name plastered all over the place for everyone to know them. They want to live in infamy.
This is the part that drives me mad. The folks making the most noise about this publicly appear to be completely unconcerned that we are rearing adolescents that are filled with rage, have no regard for human life or common decency and can't cope with the trials of day to day life, but instead want to blame and regulate objects in the same fashion they have for decades without it making a blip of positive difference, and in fact making a net negative difference.
These same people hand out trophies for participating and then later in life when these special little snowflakes fail, they believe they are entitled to either still getting a reward or they break down and go nuts and hurt people.
This political correct, everybody is special, everybody must be included and feelings and emotions and speaking truths are more important than anything crap is ruining this Nation and parents who are just drones that allow the terrible state run public school system to parent their kids are the real problems.
Most are not a virtuous people anymore. Most are disgusting pathetic pussies with tons of shit education that amounts to little knowledge and less wisdom; just drifting along wanting everyone else to pay for their shit and they believe they deserve whatever they want just because they want it and need to have instant gratification.
If we don't get to the root of this, which is absolutely pegged to parenting and education and failures of the State itself- nothing will change for the better.
It's worth repeating. Guns are not and have never been the problem, they are just tools; inanimate objects. The problem is complex and will take decades to fix, but it will only get worse if we continue to blame objects instead of people.
And events like this will never fully go away. Sad as it is, it's a small part of human nature that expresses itself in a very small number of individuals.
In almost every shooting like this there were huge red flags and signs, sometimes even threats of committing these acts, but current laws were not enforced and federal agencies messed up over and over again.
More laws is rarely a solution to a problem and someone who ignores the basic societal elements of NOT killing someone will not somehow follow other laws.
If every gun was locked away it wouldn't stop these acts. But it would stop folks from having access to defend themselves. So again, it would be a net negative with more death and more violent crime.
I wish we could get people to be good and not do evil shit, but it's impossible. We live in a universe of duality, positive and negative, good and evil. It's our reality.
You can no more stop people from being crazy and committing evil acts than you can stop gravity from existing. Physical laws of nature and the reality of our existence.
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Off-choader
New member
Oh wow a survey of 170 political science experts guys! They are claiming this obama guy did have a legacy back in January 2018. It is a shame it must have been completely erased in only a few short months...
haha thanks for your much needed contribution to this thread.
I agree I probably should just remain quiet because [MENTION=122184]Gunslinger-13[/MENTION] is producing excellent responses far greater than what I could type up, the only reason I still stop by this thread.
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wake_rider
New member
wake_rider
New member
My friend, I implore you to moderate your information intake to be more inclusive. Polarization is a condition of constant confirmation bias which most often disregards any opposing information as invalid, without merit or value.
Do better. If not for others, do better for yourself. I say this with sincerity. You've been just short of belligerent throughout the entirety of this thread, adding nothing of value to the conversation. If you have well-thought, well-researched, well-constructed responses that offer some level of concession to contrasting arguments/ideas, then you'll be part of generating beneficial and valuable dialogue.
Let's aim for that in the future, eh?
BackOff
New member
An observation from one white human.
Not trying to be racist this is just how it was.
Growing up here in Central Oregon in the 1970s to 1980s there was about 20k population, mostly White, Some Hispanic really mostly North in Madras (farming community) and one Black family.
As the 1990's began we saw more and more influx of Californians.
Towards the end of the 90's it seamed more and more Hispanic.
Now its Asians, Blacks you name it. :target:
The local population sign said it was 81k now. 2018.
Again this is just an observation not bashing on anyone.
I bet growing up in NYC in the 1970s was a different story.
I am glad I grew up in Oregon.
Back to the rest of the country.
As the world continues to grow and over populate there will be resistance to change.
We have more and more humans that grew up in a completely different culture living here. What conditions/schooling and ideology they had imprinted on them is most likely different that someone that grew up in the USA, same thing applies to the East coast Vs. the West coast...population density has dictated gun laws...example, such as deer hunting with a shotgun in the East.
America is not the America that the founding fathers would most likely even recognize today.
The constitution gets thrown around so much any more its like some kind of security blanket that should protect anyone that thinks they are an American.
Comparing the USA to how some other country did something seems foolish to me.
We have no real cultural identity base like the rest of the world, we are a 'melting pot' of the rest of the cultures of the world and their cultures. The act of trying to get along will allways be difficult if we refuse to modify our ideas with the changing world.
Seems like everyone is pissed off and ready to fight at the drop of a hat...
Watch 'Live PD' a few times. See how the country is acting.
What do they even teach kids these days?
How about some world history and a class in cultural compassion.
Just saw an article that said Bend was the 2nd fastest growing community in the country.
Not trying to be racist this is just how it was.
Growing up here in Central Oregon in the 1970s to 1980s there was about 20k population, mostly White, Some Hispanic really mostly North in Madras (farming community) and one Black family.
As the 1990's began we saw more and more influx of Californians.
Towards the end of the 90's it seamed more and more Hispanic.
Now its Asians, Blacks you name it. :target:
The local population sign said it was 81k now. 2018.
Again this is just an observation not bashing on anyone.
I bet growing up in NYC in the 1970s was a different story.
I am glad I grew up in Oregon.
Back to the rest of the country.
As the world continues to grow and over populate there will be resistance to change.
We have more and more humans that grew up in a completely different culture living here. What conditions/schooling and ideology they had imprinted on them is most likely different that someone that grew up in the USA, same thing applies to the East coast Vs. the West coast...population density has dictated gun laws...example, such as deer hunting with a shotgun in the East.
America is not the America that the founding fathers would most likely even recognize today.
The constitution gets thrown around so much any more its like some kind of security blanket that should protect anyone that thinks they are an American.
Comparing the USA to how some other country did something seems foolish to me.
We have no real cultural identity base like the rest of the world, we are a 'melting pot' of the rest of the cultures of the world and their cultures. The act of trying to get along will allways be difficult if we refuse to modify our ideas with the changing world.
Seems like everyone is pissed off and ready to fight at the drop of a hat...
Watch 'Live PD' a few times. See how the country is acting.
What do they even teach kids these days?
How about some world history and a class in cultural compassion.
Just saw an article that said Bend was the 2nd fastest growing community in the country.
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Hepar
New member
It would only be a wash if the number of crimes prevented equalled the number of accidental/suicide incidents. Which it most definitely does not.
Different cultures are nothing new to this country. Every generation saw waves of different immigrant influxes. It has had a huge effect on how the country was shaped to what we see today. I think what you're seeing today is an emphasis on identifying it to fit a political narrative.
