Volvo XC90
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Thai
Elite Member
Had same question because my brother is thinking about getting one...but then i googled it and reliability...and the results are NOT good:
https://www.truedelta.com/Volvo-XC90/reliability-292
And: https://www.truedelta.com/Volvo-XC90/problem-histories-292,2016-2016
I am trying to push my brother over to Land Cruiser...and if you want to go even higher (but on-road), the new Navigator looks pretty nice!
https://www.truedelta.com/Volvo-XC90/reliability-292
And: https://www.truedelta.com/Volvo-XC90/problem-histories-292,2016-2016
I am trying to push my brother over to Land Cruiser...and if you want to go even higher (but on-road), the new Navigator looks pretty nice!
That's what I'd been afraid of...I think I may wait a few model years and hope some of the next gen glitches are solved. As for the Navigator, my father was looking at that, what a beautiful car (even for someone who's not really much of a Ford guy!)
LittleCaesar
New member
My sis has one, the new T6. Very nice car, for a woman that is. But pricey. Volvo is still trying to capture its niche since losing it in the late 90s thanks to Ford and it looks like they are on their way to doing such.
If it were me I'd probably be more into an MDX or a Sequoia.
If it were me I'd probably be more into an MDX or a Sequoia.
wadle5
New member
Gorgeous looking car, one of the safest on the road. But like most vo's the reliability and maint on these things still isn't cheap. I 2nd the Landcruiser notion, although those are definitely a little more on the hefty side compared to the xc90 which seems great for the city dwellers.
philsey
New member
+1. I was quite interested too ... drove one ... gorgeous car, but the cost slowed me down. So I did some online investigation and discovered reliability issues - more than I expected in this price bracket.
In that size and price range, I'd consider the RX350 if you can stand the styling.
LittleCaesar
New member
My sis also considered a GX460, which would have been first on my list.
philsey
New member
Thai
Elite Member
Went to see Land Cruiser yesterday. Nice SUV, but it is so old ass design!! The 2nd row does NOT have USB or even a two-prong outlet (despite having rear entertainment system). Only one USB and lighter in front...and one 3-prong outlet in cargo. More plastic than i think it should have at the price...cheap hollow plastic door pulls. No fore-aft movement on 2nd row which makes 3rd row a disaster to sit in!! And leg room of 2nd row is very ordinary since you cannot move it back. And those 3rd row seats fold up and takes up so much space!
But, i do like the million and one AC vents. The structure is rock solid...everything is at frame height...no low hanging stuff. The overall shape is very nice...the front end looks great...reminds me of TLC 80 series. Clam-shell rear is nice.
Price was $87k. But dealer immediately offered $10k off.
My brother is still deciding.... For me, Land Cruiser is a great SUV but definitely don't buy it if you have to use 3 rows of seating.
But, i do like the million and one AC vents. The structure is rock solid...everything is at frame height...no low hanging stuff. The overall shape is very nice...the front end looks great...reminds me of TLC 80 series. Clam-shell rear is nice.
Price was $87k. But dealer immediately offered $10k off.
My brother is still deciding.... For me, Land Cruiser is a great SUV but definitely don't buy it if you have to use 3 rows of seating.
BlackWorksInc
New member
Honestly, I'd rather the old tech vs. the new stuff. Almost all this new crap is basically unreliable or over all an excuse for lazy/incompetent drivers to kill other people with. Not to mention how much extra money you pay for all that crap only to have to pay to fix it out of warranty? Yeah, no thanks. As for the plastic? Eh, almost all vehicle are plastic, chrome plated, metal faux, wood faux, laminate faux, ect. That's how it's all built these days, high-end cars just do a better job of veneering over that plastic, but they all creak and snap together the same) Maybe if you get in the 100k+ vehicles they put some thicker leather and a lot more felt tape on the panels and start using CF Reinforced paneling vs. typical plastic injection molded stuff, but it's all the same really... except for Chrysler; those guys have the market cornered on making a car feel ridiculously plasticky and cheap despite using the same plastics as everyone else, should be an award for that level of shittiness.
That being said, the LC200 is a great vehicle and that old-school BoF design and some of the older tech it uses makes it a reliable and stalwart beast. But not at $90k... the price difference between the LC200 and the LX570 is ridiculously small and honestly the value just isn't there vs. say a Sequoia or QX80 (though that one's a big more cramped than the older Armada based QX56).
If you're looking for a fancy/upscale people mover that's gonna swallow a lot of people you're better off looking at a minivan. If you just can't get past the minivan stigma, there's plenty of so/so unibody CUVs and extra-large CUVs out there that can fill that "I want an SUV Look-alike, but don't really plan on going off-pavement" itch. Don't get me wrong, for city/family cruiser those bad boys will do you good, the LC200 is just that and a vehicle that can actually handle the off-road well... all in a ridiculously over-priced bracket that just makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with Toyota. lol
Post Note-
Do the new Volvos still use that weird rubber that starts to melt/stick to everything on all their switches? God I hated that stuff on used Volvos, like the whole damn car was melting. Shame the XC90 looks like a nice car, but doesn't surprise me about the reliability issues, it is a European vehicle and there's been some growing/teething pains from what I understand since they were bought by their new Chinese owner. I'm sure they'll work it out eventually as long as they don't succumb to the need to overly penny pinch everything through the design/manufacture process as is somewhat common with a lot of Chinese owned companies.
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Thai
Elite Member
Nice long posts you made recently...all pretty much say the same thing. If you think that people who use all the new techs are lazy or incompetent, then i think that you're the one that is ignorant. Sorry.
I am glad that you're such a professional driver...and the rest are incompetent fools. It is clear from our past conversations that you're truly outdated with the newer cars despite your auto background...so i will let it pass this time.
You and your love for minivan...if only one walks the walk. :hatsoff:
wadle5
New member
But Thai don't you have a minivan and were claiming it as being the greatest thing since sliced bread?
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Thai
Elite Member
Yes! And it is a very practical vehicle!! And that is why i walk the walk. BlackWorksInc says anyone that do not off-road everyday should instead get a minivan because have no business in owning a 4x4...yet, he himself does not even off-road much at all now...and has NOT owned a minivan in his life! LOL
BlackWorksInc
New member
So far all I've seen with BSM is an unreliable system that needs work before it's used in autonomous vehicles, at best it's a great way to distract people when their driving. LDA is also useless most of the time (that has more to do with how lovely American roads are really, when the lines are barely there or snow covers them LDA is useless, but then again how blind do you have to be to not fit the vehicle between the lanes?), but at least it's not as finicky and requires repairs like BSM, so far. Pre-Collision Detection... well assuming the system is calibrated properly (not something you'd be able to tell until you need it because of how it's calibrated and that's it's own scary thing) it's a nice feature assuming it doesn't trip up and incorrectly decide you need to brake when you don't and causing an accident (haven't heard of that happening yet, but it's not outside of possible failure modes for these systems due to how they operate, but then again Toyota already recalled PCS once already).
But you know what I see? People on their phones, not paying attention to the road. People who can't adjust their mirrors or use them properly, who don't look when they change lanes, who don't signal, and so on. Also people who have all the fancy bells and whistles and their cars are more banged up and dented than a damn junkyard wrecker at a demo derby. Oh wasn't there that twit of a kid tweeting her car crash when she killed her sister (intoxicated, underage, not educated as a driver properly, also not making sure her passengers were buckled, and oh yeah let's not forget livestreaming while they were driving, sounds like the average driver to me)? Again, you might be a nice old lady driving, but the majority of drivers are incompetent and unsafe. Don't give me BS that there aren't a large number of twit drivers, we both lived/live in the Bay Area where the average driver intelligence/awareness makes a Trump supporter look like a genius.
All this new technology just encourages them to be lazier and not bother paying attention to the road and their vehicle. That being said, the technology is quickly rolling into autonomous cars, so my only real problem with it besides it being a stopgap to give false security to already bad drivers (because it's not the gadgets that make them bad driver's it's their lack of education and in some cases laziness/disregard for responsibility) until they come out with self-driving vehicles is how unreliable, easy to knock out of whack, and expensive it is to fix when it does break.
The failure rates on the new systems is high enough that I am curious how many people are going to be loving them when they need to drop $1k for a milimeter radar module plus labor and calibration to keep their BSM working? Or $700+ for a BSM equipped mirror?
I don't much like this "grey area" crap, either go full autonomous or actually invest in good driver education for everyone. I'd be more forgiving towards useless stuff like BSM, LDA, and such IF it were optional on every vehicle; not driving the price of a barely worth $10k plasticky, creaky, cheapo mess of a Corolla to near $20k base price because of it.
As for the minivan? Hey, we went over this before. It's a good road trip car for a family or even a couple. I'd rock a Sienna if had use for it, my family's minivan was great for road trips when I was younger.
Well, not quite what I'm saying. Rather what I'm getting at is if you're looking at an LC200, aside from the benefits you get off-roading in that platform, there isn't much else going for that vehicle vs. other "luxury" large vehicles. There are better vehicles ranging from a Minivan to those bloated extra-large unibody CUVs. The only real difference the LC200 has over say a Mercedes ML class is that it's a more capable and reliable vehicle as an off-roader, but the ML trounces it as a city-cruiser/family wagon. Not to mention if you're more interested in creature comforts and feeling like a silicon valley executive, your $90k is better spent on the Mercedes than the Toyota in regards to features per dollar.
The LC200 is a nice vehicle, it's just ridiculously over priced for what it is compared to the competition. It's only real leg to stand on is off-road capability, everything else out-classes it in a feature/comfort category because of it's BOF design. It's only real analogue in that regard is the Mercedes G-Wagon, but that's a better bang for your buck in regards to feature creep & price.
I'm just saying if your brother is anywhere near as feature obsessed as you are for the money, the LC200 is probably a lesser choice compared to other vehicles out there. But hey if you want to steer him to an LC200, by all means go ahead; they're not bad vehicle at all (I LOVE that center console fridge).
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Thai
Elite Member
Damn you write a lot!!! Summarize your thoughts!!!
Just a few quickies. Autonomous driving will likely NOT use those same BSM sensors found in current cars. Autonomous driving involves LIDAR, cameras in every orifices around the car, and sensors with far more range capability.
Pre-Collision is like your backup to your eyeballs. Not everyone is as good of a driver as you...cough***BS***cough.
OMG, people on their phones!!!! Oh and those folks only started using that shit within the past 6 months!!! Phones did not exist 5-10 yrs ago! Did you know that people only recently started to drink AND drive?!!! OMG!!!
The incompetent driver is a new thing...must be a 2017 thing! Seriously!!
Yeah, you see sonny, back in my days in the 1980s, there was no accidents. There was nothing broken. People lived till 120 years of age. You youngsters don’t know nothing!!
You may want to take a stroll over to IIHS or NHTSA and read up on rates of accidents and injuries that have gone down with these new (awful!!) technologies!!
But, nah, why read up on facts when you have pre-conceived ignorant rants from folks like you.
Yeah, lets go FULL AUTONOMOUS even when technology is not there yet!! Good idea!!
Look, here are the facts...you do NOT off-road anymore. Yet, you criticize everyone else who owns a 4x4 and don’t take it off-road often...and that they need to buy a minivan instead! YET, you are the exception to the rule that you impose on everyone else!
Minivan for a COUPLE???? As much as i love my minivan, that just made me choke on water in laughing so hard!
Here’s a marvel idea...why don’t you let other people spend their money how they see fit to their lifestyle, needs, etc.? You clearly don’t follow your own rules.
Thai
Elite Member
Which do you think affects reliability and durability? Your lift or BSM?
Which do you think may cause loss of life in a crash? Your Shrockswork bumper or Pre-Collision?
Which do you think may cause a rollover? Your lift or VSC?
Not so long ago, a few argued that VSC will create more idiotic drivers and encourage them to go faster resulting in more crashes! Has that happened? No.
BlackWorksInc
New member
Damn you write a lot!!! Summarize your thoughts!!!
Just a few quickies. Autonomous driving will likely NOT use those same BSM sensors found in current cars. Autonomous driving involves LIDAR, cameras in every orifices around the car, and sensors with far more range capability.
Pre-Collision is like your backup to your eyeballs. Not everyone is as good of a driver as you...cough***BS***cough.
OMG, people on their phones!!!! Oh and those folks only started using that shit within the past 6 months!!! Phones did not exist 5-10 yrs ago! Did you know that people only recently started to drink AND drive?!!! OMG!!!
The incompetent driver is a new thing...must be a 2017 thing! Seriously!!
Yeah, you see sonny, back in my days in the 1980s, there was no accidents. There was nothing broken. People lived till 120 years of age. You youngsters don’t know nothing!!
You may want to take a stroll over to IIHS or NHTSA and read up on rates of accidents and injuries that have gone down with these new (awful!!) technologies!!
But, nah, why read up on facts when you have pre-conceived ignorant rants from folks like you.
Yeah, lets go FULL AUTONOMOUS even when technology is not there yet!! Good idea!!
Look, here are the facts...you do NOT off-road anymore. Yet, you criticize everyone else who owns a 4x4 and don’t take it off-road often...and that they need to buy a minivan instead! YET, you are the exception to the rule that you impose on everyone else!
Minivan for a COUPLE???? As much as i love my minivan, that just made me choke on water in laughing so hard!
Here’s a marvel idea...why don’t you let other people spend their money how they see fit to their lifestyle, needs, etc.? You clearly don’t follow your own rules.
-That's exactly why I am fine with "BSM" (because it won't be Blind Spot Monitoring in an autonomous vehicle, it'll be a software package utilizing existing LIDAR and other tech) in self-driving cars. The techology packages those vehicles will be using are far more robust and redundant by design. Do I need to make this clearer for you?
-I don't have a problem with PCS systems, it's just that they are all relatively calibrated (meaning someone could easily **** up calibration on them like they did on the Avalons) and you can't actually "check" the calibration unless you want to try and crash a customer's car into a wall to make sure it activates because of how the system is designed and coded. It's not something that instills a lot of confidence in the system when you know how sensitive those calibrations can be and how easy a factory worker or tech can mess them up and not having a reliable way to double-check them just makes me feel uneasy. The technology itself is nice though.
-Incompetent drivers are nothing new, drinking and driving is not new, the degradation of the driving education system is relatively new (last 20 yrs or so), the increase of people seeing cars as glorified "toys" and their disregard for operating multi-ton death wagons has only gotten worse the more distractions we give people. The only thing we've managed to do is to increase survivability of people and honestly? That's a topic for another chat, suffice to say that nature has a balance that we may be mucking with for the detriment of humanity's genetic pool. But bottom line, all this technology makes a cheap car ridiculously expensive and a bad driver no better at not getting in an accident.
-Did I say anything about wanting self-driving cars NOW? No, I said that the stopgap and "grey area" we're in as the technology works it's way to the end-goal of self-driving cars is not entirely a good thing over-all. I'd much rather all these gadgets and crap be entirely optional on all vehicles (that means you can buy a car without BSM, LDA, PCS, ect.) on all models/trims. OR you just wait until self-driving tech is a thing. It's an extreme point of view but it's mine, I work on enough of this shit to see it's issues and that it's better suited for self-driving applications more than human driven ones; though it'll be a while for that.
I also made it clear that if the guy is looking to buy a Volvo XC90, he'd probably be better off with a nicer CUV or minivan or something else that matches a XC90. Much in the way that I assume your brother is as much a techie obsessed shill like you and that instead of throwing $90k on "old tech" he should get a nice vehicle that have loads of goodies in it.
As for you in particular? You just enjoy picking fights and being generally a condescending prick when people don't bow down to your ideals and opinions (presented as unerrable facts), I'm just okay with rolling in the mud with you most of the time because I'm a sad ****ing sack of shit and a waste of human genetic code who wonders why he doesn't just put a bullet in his head most days. So thanks for giving my life enough purpose to just finish the bottle and not the magazine!
BlackWorksInc
New member
Reliability- Both, you did not specific which aspect of reliability you meant (mechanical or electrical) therefore they both fall equally under the blanket.
Cause loss of life- Both, PCS has the potential to engage erroneously and cause pile-ups due to the random application of brakes and the person behind you plowing into you (unlikely but possible). A full metal bumper has the possibility of increasing damage in an accident against some vehicles, though it could potentially protect you against death as well. So due to your vague criteria... again both.
Cause a rollover- Both again, due to your vague (as always) attempts to generalize. VCS is unstable in slippy/extreme conditions such as Ice and can erratically engage and cause you to lose control more so than without (assuming you have a mild understanding of how to operate your vehicle). A lift raises CoG (Center of Gravity) and this can also induce the possibility of a rollover.
As for the VSC causing more idiotic drivers? Debatable. Causing more spinouts and loss of control in the winter-time? Yeah, that's entirely believable and happens a lot.
If you're going to be a troll or at least try to seem like your the more intelligent one, be more specific in your trolling. Because then I wouldn't have to be a dick to you.
(The CORRECT questions you were looking for you support your argument, instead of your usual vague/baiting drivel)
Which will affect the drivability of your vehicle?
Which has a higher likelyhood of increasing the risk of a fatality in a collision?
Which has the likelyhood of causing a higher risk of rollover?
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Thai
Elite Member
-That's exactly why I am fine with "BSM" (because it won't be Blind Spot Monitoring in an autonomous vehicle, it'll be a software package utilizing existing LIDAR and other tech) in self-driving cars. The techology packages those vehicles will be using are far more robust and redundant by design. Do I need to make this clearer for you?
-I don't have a problem with PCS systems, it's just that they are all relatively calibrated (meaning someone could easily **** up calibration on them like they did on the Avalons) and you can't actually "check" the calibration unless you want to try and crash a customer's car into a wall to make sure it activates because of how the system is designed and coded. It's not something that instills a lot of confidence in the system when you know how sensitive those calibrations can be and how easy a factory worker or tech can mess them up and not having a reliable way to double-check them just makes me feel uneasy. The technology itself is nice though.
-Incompetent drivers are nothing new, drinking and driving is not new, the degradation of the driving education system is relatively new (last 20 yrs or so), the increase of people seeing cars as glorified "toys" and their disregard for operating multi-ton death wagons has only gotten worse the more distractions we give people. The only thing we've managed to do is to increase survivability of people and honestly? That's a topic for another chat, suffice to say that nature has a balance that we may be mucking with for the detriment of humanity's genetic pool. But bottom line, all this technology makes a cheap car ridiculously expensive and a bad driver no better at not getting in an accident.
-Did I say anything about wanting self-driving cars NOW? No, I said that the stopgap and "grey area" we're in as the technology works it's way to the end-goal of self-driving cars is not entirely a good thing over-all. I'd much rather all these gadgets and crap be entirely optional on all vehicles (that means you can buy a car without BSM, LDA, PCS, ect.) on all models/trims. OR you just wait until self-driving tech is a thing. It's an extreme point of view but it's mine, I work on enough of this shit to see it's issues and that it's better suited for self-driving applications more than human driven ones; though it'll be a while for that.
I also made it clear that if the guy is looking to buy a Volvo XC90, he'd probably be better off with a nicer CUV or minivan or something else that matches a XC90. Much in the way that I assume your brother is as much a techie obsessed shill like you and that instead of throwing $90k on "old tech" he should get a nice vehicle that have loads of goodies in it.
As for you in particular? You just enjoy picking fights and being generally a condescending prick when people don't bow down to your ideals and opinions (presented as unerrable facts), I'm just okay with rolling in the mud with you most of the time because I'm a sad ****ing sack of shit and a waste of human genetic code who wonders why he doesn't just put a bullet in his head most days. So thanks for giving my life enough purpose to just finish the bottle and not the magazine!
Ahhh, now all of a sudden, you know about LIDAR? LOL. Glad to have taught you something.
PCS...isn’t that still a backup system to the human response? Has PCS saved lives? YES. Has it saved lives because people are more idiotic? No. A dumbass will always find a way do bad. A dumbass can over-ride a self-driving car (such as when drunk). Self-driving is not the end all answer to accidents.
BTW, as of now, most self-driving cars in the near future will require driver to put hands on steering wheel. So, good or bad, humans are still in play.
What do you know about my brother? I gave my opinions above, not his. Why the assumptions? That’s just being a dumbass.
Picking fights? Aren’t you the one who keeps on harping the minivan rule...yet don’t follow it? Aren’t you the one who is condescending on anyone who owns a 4x4 and not take it off-road everyday? YET, you admitted that you no longer off-road yourself!
No, just stating facts from your own admissions in past and from IIHS/NHTSA.
I am glad that you feel better talking to me...but you may want to seek professional help or your nearest emergency room. Seriously. You need help.
