Warping Rotos, Stock and Tundra Upgrade

[Krommeweg]

Hey all,

Let me start by saying, I know that driving style and where/what you do with your runner are the main factors for lots of normal wear parts.
I'm that guy who tries to drive as fluid as possible, beat previous records for MPG on the same drives... etc. I don't brake unless I have to. When I do, I'm sure to always pulse the brakes, not ride them. I do not tow, or live at the top of a big hill...

My 4Runner (just hit 200,000 mi) had stock rotors/calipers/drums for years, when my rotors became badly warped I did the '01 Tundra swap.

Napa Eclipse rebuilt calipers, corresponding OEM 199m Tundra rotors and fresh pads. Had this job done by a professional. Everything went smoothly and the Runner was a dream for about 4-5 months. Stopped on a dime!

Then the familiar front end shake under braking returned. I had a stuck caliper piston on both sides. Same professional disassembled, cleaned and lubed the calipers. Rotors were lathed down to size, everything turned smoothly. This bought me two more months.

Camping in the AK interior last week, the front end brake shake returned. Not too surprised, negative temperatures most nights and long hours on the highway.

Right now, everything is spinning freely, pads are basically new, master cylinder and the hydraulic system is perfect. Just 6-month-old warped rotors which I am now replacing.

What are some common brake problem areas that you have encountered? What should I be looking out for in the future? I do not want to swap rotors again any time soon.

I have found many mentions of warped rotors on this forum, Tundra and stock, tons of information but no definitive answers or diagnosis that apply to my situation. Feels like I have checked every part of the system.

Thank you for reading! This forum has been and continues to be a wealth of knowledge.

 

[96RedRunner]

Any time you replace pads and rotors drums and shoes you need to do a bed-in procedure for proper transfer of pad material to rotor and drum. Sounds as your mechanic did not do this.
This is the procedure I've used for 30yrs or so.
Accelerate to 35 mph
Moderate braking to 5-10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.
Accelerate to 45 mph
Moderate to heavy braking to 10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.
Park let cool 1-2 hrs.

 

[Renegade_Medic]

Are your rear brakes working properly?
Why not go to 231mm (13WL) tundra upgrade?
What brand of parts are you using?

I went through a couple sets of rotors before I went with Tundra brakes, and Powerstop Z36 Severe Duty rotors and pads (K2324-36). They are slotted and drilled, which has believers and non-believers. I have had them on multiple vehicle and have NEVER had a rotor cause pulsation or crack. I have never had an issue in mud or gravel either which is a common "myth".

If your rear brakes are not working properly, either not adjusted or blown axle seal, your fronts will do 100% of the braking and wear out very quickly.

Another thing to consider would be the proper torque on the wheel lugs. On my wife's Mazda the dealer went absolutely nuts on the lug torque, probably 180 lb-ft, and the brakes pulsated about a month after it was serviced. It too got treated with Powerstops (30k miles and nothing but smiles on that particular set).

 

[Jason7191]

Any time you replace pads and rotors drums and shoes you need to do a bed-in procedure for proper transfer of pad material to rotor and drum. Sounds as your mechanic did not do this.

This is the procedure I've used for 30yrs or so.

Accelerate to 35 mph

Moderate braking to 5-10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.

Accelerate to 45 mph

Moderate to heavy braking to 10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.

Park let cool 1-2 hrs.

Good to know! Doing mine tomorrow.


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[Kanoe]

I have been wanting to ask this for some time and now seems appropriate.

Are people having problems with OEM brakes (pads, callipers, rotors the whole deal) and then upgrading to the tundra set up?

Or, are people replacing their OEM with auto store parts first, then having brake trouble and upgrading?

Reason I ask is I have all OEM brake parts and most of it original to the truck, and I have never had any issues with it.

Do the brake problems start after the first trip to the discount auto parts store?

 

[Doc2012]

I have been wanting to ask this for some time and now seems appropriate.



Are people having problems with OEM brakes (pads, callipers, rotors the whole deal) and then upgrading to the tundra set up?



Or, are people replacing their OEM with auto store parts first, then having brake trouble and upgrading?



Reason I ask is I have all OEM brake parts and most of it original to the truck, and I have never had any issues with it.



Do the brake problems start after the first trip to the discount auto parts store?

I don’t think it’s ‘parts problems’ people are having.

It’s just an up-grade.

Remember, people run bigger tires, armor, etc etc, making these trucks heavier, thus causing the stock braking system to work harder.

The Tundra brakes are bigger, the rotors thicker, and more surface area of the pads, making more braking power.


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[IBallEngineer]

Hey all,

Let me start by saying, I know that driving style and where/what you do with your runner are the main factors for lots of normal wear parts.
I'm that guy who tries to drive as fluid as possible, beat previous records for MPG on the same drives... etc. I don't brake unless I have to. When I do, I'm sure to always pulse the brakes, not ride them. I do not tow, or live at the top of a big hill...

My 4Runner (just hit 200,000 mi) had stock rotors/calipers/drums for years, when my rotors became badly warped I did the '01 Tundra swap.

Napa Eclipse rebuilt calipers, corresponding OEM 199m Tundra rotors and fresh pads. Had this job done by a professional. Everything went smoothly and the Runner was a dream for about 4-5 months. Stopped on a dime!

Then the familiar front end shake under braking returned. I had a stuck caliper piston on both sides. Same professional disassembled, cleaned and lubed the calipers. Rotors were lathed down to size, everything turned smoothly. This bought me two more months.

Camping in the AK interior last week, the front end brake shake returned. Not too surprised, negative temperatures most nights and long hours on the highway.

Right now, everything is spinning freely, pads are basically new, master cylinder and the hydraulic system is perfect. Just 6-month-old warped rotors which I am now replacing.

What are some common brake problem areas that you have encountered? What should I be looking out for in the future? I do not want to swap rotors again any time soon.

I have found many mentions of warped rotors on this forum, Tundra and stock, tons of information but no definitive answers or diagnosis that apply to my situation. Feels like I have checked every part of the system.

Thank you for reading! This forum has been and continues to be a wealth of knowledge.

Stuck calipers is not caused by the rotor size, or rotor quality. My gut tells me you got poor quality calipers. Napa Schmapa. Maybe bad luck, maybe they just aren't very good. I used Centric brand on my 231 swap. I had my reservations but I couldn't pull the trigger on OEM. I did use OEM rotors pads and shims. That was almost 20K miles ago, the pads are close to done, but no shake at all. Seating the pads is also important, but again, not seating them won't cause the calipers to be stuck.
:couch2:

 

[96RedRunner]

I used Centric brand on my 231 swap. I had my reservations but I couldn't pull the trigger on OEM. I did use OEM rotors pads and shims. That was almost 20K miles ago, the pads are close to done, but no shake at all. Seating the pads is also important, but again, not seating them won't cause the calipers to be stuck.
:couch2:

I used the same calipers when I did 231 swap, had same reservations, used OEM pads rotors. With under 100 miles, left caliper blew o-ring between caliper halve's because whoever assembled did'nt torque to speq, right side was close to speq, My bad luck. Stuck caliper piston's, true what you say, bad luck for OP.
I am one that does'nt buy into the warped rotor myth if you want to call it that.
I've proved the point on my 96 Rnr Ltd before 231 swap and a buddy's Silverado, both had shimmy when appling brakes. All we did on both was remove rotors, use 80 grit paper to clean both sides of rotors real real good, cleaned with brake cleaner.
I went with OE pads, buddy with autozone, performed bed-in procedure worked like a champ, no shimmy after.

 

[IBallEngineer]

I used the same calipers when I did 231 swap, had same reservations, used OEM pads rotors. With under 100 miles, left caliper blew o-ring between caliper halve's because whoever assembled did'nt torque to speq, right side was close to speq, My bad luck. Stuck caliper piston's, true what you say, bad luck for OP.
I am one that does'nt buy into the warped rotor myth if you want to call it that.
I've proved the point on my 96 Rnr Ltd before 231 swap and a buddy's Silverado, both had shimmy when appling brakes. All we did on both was remove rotors, use 80 grit paper to clean both sides of rotors real real good, cleaned with brake cleaner.
I went with OE pads, buddy with autozone, performed bed-in procedure worked like a champ, no shimmy after.

Well you can buy in to any conspiracy you choose. Rotors DO in fact warp. I've seen rotors that require 200 thousands of material removed to correct, you can't do that with 80 and brake clean. I'm not saying all pedal pulsation is caused by warped rotors, I'm sure sometimes it is just material transfer.

There are some things that are indisputable, and some that are definitely gray. Almost 40 years in the auto repair business for me, just had a strange anomaly show up on my LC yesterday. Turned out to be not so much a mystery but definitely unique. Had a spark plug insert (that I didn't know existed) loosen up and allow the plug too far in to the combustion chamber. This caused the plug to get hit by a valve and break the electrode clean off. I thought I dropped a valve or something catastrophic, but eventually the mirror and flashlight helped me see the problem. Always something new, or weird, but physics still saved the day!

Its not rocket science, just science. :drum:

 

[96RedRunner]

Ha, oh yea i have definitley not seen it all. Was'nt trying to rile anybody up.
My case was something I played with, it worked out. The OP with so few miles on his rotors seemed like bed-in was not performed. Shops in my area 9 out of 10 don't bother to bed.
Out of all the brake jobs you've done how many just needed rotor surface turned
to rough em up clean em up? The shop I use for A/C work, are friends say most just need resurface for new pads to bed correctly vs warped.
I knew you had been in the business, what i said was'nt meant to slight you.

 

[Krommeweg]

Do the brake problems start after the first trip to the discount auto parts store?

Haha! Man, I hear you. This was not my first choice, but the result of a few compromises I could not avoid.

My stock (original) rotors/calipers never worked great, and after 170,000ish miles were warped and a bit rusty.

I did the 199m Tundra rotors because I have 16" rims and do not like the idea of grinding them down for clearance. When they were working, my runner braked beauuuutifully. More than enough braking for the weight of my rig.

Reman'd NAPA Eclipse calipers (included pads) were my best choice for function/price. Could not afford new genuine toyo parts, could not wait as my brakes were bad. Went OEM rotors, from Rock Auto.

 

[Krommeweg]

Are your rear brakes working properly?
Why not go to 231mm (13WL) tundra upgrade?
What brand of parts are you using?

I went through a couple sets of rotors before I went with Tundra brakes, and Powerstop Z36 Severe Duty rotors and pads (K2324-36). They are slotted and drilled, which has believers and non-believers. I have had them on multiple vehicle and have NEVER had a rotor cause pulsation or crack. I have never had an issue in mud or gravel either which is a common "myth".

If your rear brakes are not working properly, either not adjusted or blown axle seal, your fronts will do 100% of the braking and wear out very quickly.

Another thing to consider would be the proper torque on the wheel lugs. On my wife's Mazda the dealer went absolutely nuts on the lug torque, probably 180 lb-ft, and the brakes pulsated about a month after it was serviced. It too got treated with Powerstops (30k miles and nothing but smiles on that particular set).

My rear brakes are in good shape, did Yukon G&A axle shafts, bearings and seals last summer. Did the rear brakes at the same time. System is air-tight.

Lug torque is also correct. (Double checked. Then double checked again.)

I've got NAPA "Eclipse" reman'd calipers/pads included. Bosch Rotors. Toyo hydraulic fluid.

The 199ms are plenty of brake for my runner (Believe in Colin Chapman's philosophy: "simplify and add lightness." Will one day swap the auto trans for a lighter manual) and I didn't like the idea of grinding down my rims. Dust shields? Sure. Grinding on the previous owner's aftermarket rims? No thanks.

In a perfect world, I would always go for Genuine Toyo parts (except with a brand like Yukon who basically kick ass). On a Chef's salary? There are some compromises I have to make.

 

[Krommeweg]

Any time you replace pads and rotors drums and shoes you need to do a bed-in procedure for proper transfer of pad material to rotor and drum. Sounds as your mechanic did not do this.
This is the procedure I've used for 30yrs or so.
Accelerate to 35 mph
Moderate braking to 5-10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.
Accelerate to 45 mph
Moderate to heavy braking to 10 mph, repeat 3-4 times.
Park let cool 1-2 hrs.

Thanks for a break-down of the bed-in procedure! I had never heard of this until a few weeks ago. (My fault) I am also guessing the mechanic who did my brake work has not heard of it either. Or is just lazy.

Based on a consistent squeeeel that has persisted ever since the day of the Tundra swap, I think signs point in that direction.

After the rotors were lathed down (machinist mentioned that he "had to" take "a lot" of metal off), I think I just stressed the skinny rotors out with lots of tough road miles, about 1,600 round trip. Every time I parked the car last week, the temp was below 10F... That hot/cold/hot/cold treatment did not help, I am sure.

I have claimed my warranty on the NAPA(schmapa) calipers, and ordered better rotors off Rock Auto. Once parts arrive, the work is done, and I have done the bed-in properly, I will post an update on this thread. Could be about a month.

Thanks again to everyone!

 

[hounddogman]

There are some things that are indisputable, and some that are definitely gray. Almost 40 years in the auto repair business for me, just had a strange anomaly show up on my LC yesterday. Turned out to be not so much a mystery but definitely unique. Had a spark plug insert (that I didn't know existed) loosen up and allow the plug too far in to the combustion chamber. This caused the plug to get hit by a valve and break the electrode clean off. I thought I dropped a valve or something catastrophic, but eventually the mirror and flashlight helped me see the problem. Always something new, or weird, but physics still saved the day!

Its not rocket science, just science. :drum:

Sorry to hijack , but does anyone know if the 22R has these spark plug inserts ? This sounds like the problem that my folks 87 4Runner had when I was a kid .

 

[IBallEngineer]

Sorry to hijack , but does anyone know if the 22R has these spark plug inserts ? This sounds like the problem that my folks 87 4Runner had when I was a kid .

The inserts are only installed as a repair to damaged threads on the head. So if someone installed them it could have had one or more. The are not a factory part on any vehicle that I know of.

 

[hounddogman]

The inserts are only installed as a repair to damaged threads on the head. So if someone installed them it could have had one or more. The are not a factory part on any vehicle that I know of.

Ah, I didn't realize that's what we were talking about . It seems likely as that engine had a couple of Heli-coil's on the exhaust manifold bolts.

 

[amalik]

Are your rear brakes working properly?
Why not go to 231mm (13WL) tundra upgrade?
What brand of parts are you using?

I went through a couple sets of rotors before I went with Tundra brakes, and Powerstop Z36 Severe Duty rotors and pads (K2324-36). They are slotted and drilled, which has believers and non-believers. I have had them on multiple vehicle and have NEVER had a rotor cause pulsation or crack. I have never had an issue in mud or gravel either which is a common "myth".

If your rear brakes are not working properly, either not adjusted or blown axle seal, your fronts will do 100% of the braking and wear out very quickly.

Another thing to consider would be the proper torque on the wheel lugs. On my wife's Mazda the dealer went absolutely nuts on the lug torque, probably 180 lb-ft, and the brakes pulsated about a month after it was serviced. It too got treated with Powerstops (30k miles and nothing but smiles on that particular set).

If no blown rear axle seal condition is present, what's your definition of a rear brake properly working, you are defining that strictly by adjustment level, or something else?

 

[Krommeweg]

Four months ago I finally fixed the brake issue from the original post. The culprit was poorly remanned calipers from NAPA, rotors (also NAPA) and no bedding-in. Looks like a piston failed in the caliper as the rotors were warping.

I had a pro mechanic (not me) do the work this time just to be sure. StopTech calipers, slotted rotors and pads. Adjusted the rear brakes and everything looks good.

The 4Runner has since done many miles on gravel roads (every day), steep washed-out grades, a few 1 to 1.5 foot deep stream crossings, sand etc. Everything but snow and ice so far. The StopTech set up works beautifully. Adjust the rear brakes and everything is smooth and immediate. Zero brake fading, even with water crossings.

Life is good, except for the goddamn parking cop who chalked my rims. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

 

[AscendedWarrior]

The bed in process is something I will most likely handle tomorrow as well. I spent most of the day today replacing the rotors and brakes, and ended up replacing a caliper as well. ( All stock )

I just got this 4Runner a few months back so I am still learning a lot about it.

For instance today when pulling off the rotors, they were stuck on there pretty good and took a hammer to knock them off. Then it seems someone replaced the left front caliper and brake pads, as there was still a decent bit of pad left in there, but on the right side the caliper was completely rusted, took a cheater bar to break the bolts, even with PB Blaster, and the brake pads were disintegrating. It appears whoever did the brakes before only did the left and not the right.

I am still figuring out the best way to bleed the brakes and full flush. I did a full flush today as well but feel something is off.

If I did this part wrong please let me know.

Two man method
Depressed brakes 40 times, ignition off.
Ignition on
Open valve, bleed till no bubbles.
Close valve.
Bleed/Flush Order: Right Rear, Left Rear, Front Right, Front Left.
The fluid was olive oil colored on all but the front left which came out really dark. The brake pads and rotors definitely need a proper bedding done.

Did I miss anything with the brake bleed steps? I feel even though I bled the brakes and I could not see anymore bubbles, the pedal still is not as responsive and quick as I would like. Also may need to check the rear brakes to see if they need adjusting, which most likely will need to be fully replaced as well.

 

[yella]

I have not needed to do the brakes on my Runner yet, but in my experience with other vehicles it comes down a lot to the parts.

I have had 2 Honda Accords that were both bad on brakes. On my 2nd Accord, after talking to my mechanic buddy, I replaced all the rotors and pads with Napa Premium parts. Every 6 months ( or whenever I swapped tires from summer to winter ) i would clean the slider pins, brackets, etc. Remove any surface rust build up, gunk, re lube and re install. I consistently got 80-90,000km out of my brakes after doing this.
I replaced one of the rear calipers with a Nap caliper, and maybe 50K km later, it was seized again. I ended up finding an OEM caliper used, replaced it, and never had another problem with it.


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