Water Pump/ Timing belt rant.

[spongerx]

Exhale......

My trucks been good to me. I've only taken it to the shop once and that was when I first got it. Other than that I've done all my own maintenance and it's run like swiss clock. So I'm happy. I know there are a lot of people out there who are always in and out of the garage having to pay heaps to keep their POS running.

My 4runners been leaks radiator fluid for a little while now. I took it into the shop today and the water pump is where it's leaking. I changed that thing 50,000 miles ago and really expected it to last 100k's. I'm at 175,000 miles now so I might as well change the timing belt as well. The shop wants $800 for parts and labor. I'm in college. I know that I could do the work but I don't have the time or the tools or the space to do the job. The main issue is time. I work with kids in their homes and so I need to be able to drive. Plus, I can't take the kids out on the back of my motorcycle if I reward them for a good week (hike, movies, food, whatever).

Yes. I'm whining. But it sort of makes me feel a little better to vent. It just bums me out that I've got to pay $90 an hour for some guy to do a job that I would rather do myself for the cost of parts. :violin: :violin: :violin:

Sigh........

 

[Nunyabiz]

Sounds like you need a new mechanic.

I am going to have mine (Timing belt, Water pump, tensioners, thermostat etc) all changed sometime before the end of the month.
All OEM parts cost about $275, mechanic said labor would be no more than $275. So $550

 

[Elton H]

i did my first timing belt job and it was rather simple

 

[spongerx]

Just called the dealer... they only want $588 parts and labor. Would never have thought to call the dealer. I'm taking it there... :cowboy:

 

[RDS3030]

im getting mine done next week, going to be $600 with toyota parts and labor. I feel your pain, its one of those things you have to get done or you wont have a car to drive at all.

 

[BrianSD_42]

My 4runners been leaks radiator fluid for a little while now. I took it into the shop today and the water pump is where it's leaking. I changed that thing 50,000 miles ago and really expected it to last 100k's.

RANTS are ok....

Question: did you use all TOYOTA parts when you did the previous replacement?

A few years ago, when I was at 115k miles I replaced my timing belt and water pump. I had it done at the NAVY exchange service center. They used cheaper OEM parts which were listed as "compatible", same as an autozone part.

Fast forward to 2009, now at 185,000

I went to get my timing belt changed and the mechanic noticed my water pump was "leaking" coolant (seeping green fluid). So I replaced the water pump, from now on I will only use Toyota parts. The 100k mile / lifetime warranty on Autozone parts is meaningless if you don't do the work yourself, you will spend far more on unnecessary labor.

In the future, pay $90 an hour to a trusted non-dealer mechanic but insist that he uses all Toyota parts and lists that on the receipt. It is worth the extra price in parts.

:zoom:

 

[TheDurk]

In the future, pay $90 an hour to a trusted non-dealer mechanic but insist that he uses all Toyota parts and lists that on the receipt. It is worth the extra price in parts.

:zoom:

Well, some of those e-bay kits and on-line sellers have the OE Aisin water pump, and NSK/Koyo idlers, Mitsuboshi belts and Kuzeh thermostats. You can get the exact same parts that Toyota used in the factory without paying through the wazoo for pretty red boxes if you know what you are doing. You can also get a better price on the OEM Toyota hydraulic tensioner--no other manufacturer on that.

 

[BrianSD_42]

quality assurance

Well, some of those e-bay kits use the OE Aisin water pump, and NSK/Koyo idlers, Mitsuboshi belts and Kuzeh thermostats. You can get the same quality parts without paying through the wazoo for pretty red boxes if you know what you are doing.

[edit: I don't work for Koyo, I am using them as a theoretical example]


Are they really the same quality part?
I have no doubt that a Koyo part off of ebay is better than a off-brand part from AutoZone/Kragens. That does not mean Koyo off EBAY is equal to Koyo from Toyota, even for same part #.


My understanding of how things work is this:

* Toyota does not make any parts, they buy parts from parts manufactures (eg. Koyo)
* The parts are then relabeled as Toyota parts and sent to dealerships
* Every year all the different manufacturers make a BID to become the supplier for X part #. Different years go by and X part# is made by a different manufacturer.
* The process that Toyota uses to choose who to contract with is probably based on supply chain, cost model, and quality assurance.
* Toyota will then buy large LOTs of the part #, taking the LOTs which have highest QA ratings and then leaving the lowest quality of the LOT for 3rd party sellers (eg EBAY). This is not a secret and Toyota pays more for taking the better quality LOT of parts.​

Example:
Now assume that for this year Koyo is the actual company making radiators for Toyota, say they have a contract from 2010-2012 (just hypothetical!!). This means if you walk into a dealership and buy the "toyota part" you are actually getting a Koyo and it will be labelled as a Koyo somewhere on it.

This same year Koyo makes 100,000 parts. Toyota then buys 90,000 of the part for $100 each, getting the best of what was produced. The remaining 10,000 parts are then sold to 3rd party eg: EBAY for $80 each. The parts are made in the same plant but ones Toyota didn't pick up probably had lower QA ratings (QA, 3M, six-sigma - all supply chain stuff)

SUMMARY:

"look you can get the same Koyo part on ebay with the same part # for 20% less!"

Is this actually true, are they the same?

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Yes the eBay part will have the same part # and brand name, but the parts from the dealership are from LOT #'s that have been given higher quality assurance ratings. The corporate purchaser from Toyota will take the highest marked lot for a price. Then the parts manufacturer will sell the lower QA lot of parts to 3rd party distributors, IE: EBAY.
​

As a final note: I am not against the eBay kits I just wanted to explain that part A from Toyota and part B from EBAY are not the same, despite what the eBay seller claims. There are mechanic shops that are able to purchase directly from the parts distributors (eg. Koyo) and get some of the better QA parts than what is on EBAY. If you find a shop that will have fair prices on best quality part & still charge $80-$90 / hour (instead of $130 dealership), then that is where I would take my truck.


:surfer:

 

[TheDurk]

SUMMARY:

Is this actually true, are they the same?

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Yes the eBay part will have the same part # and brand name, but the parts from the dealership are from LOT #'s that have been given higher quality assurance ratings. The corporate purchaser from Toyota will take the highest marked lot for a price. Then the parts manufacturer will sell the lower QA lot of parts to 3rd party distributors, IE: EBAY.
​

I have heard that argument before, but I don't really buy it. Toyota's manufacturing system is closely integrated with their major parts suppliers and is based on just-in-time or kanban principles all the way up the line. They DO NOT purchase large lots of parts; they purchase a continuous stream. The concept of QA is to make a robust process, not to filter out bad parts. Manufacturers like Koyo don't have a general rule of segregating inferior lots for after-market distribution; the whole point of six-sigma etc. is to obtain and maintain a uniformly high level of quality across all production. Is there the occasional bum lot of idlers that ends up on e-bay, because last Thursday they went under tolerance on the QA? Maybe, but I bet it's pretty rare and I bet your odds are still at least 20-1 in favor of getting a good one if it ever does happen.

When you talk about out-of-production parts, there just aren't that many lots available to pick and choose from. I'm sure it's a custom order every six months or a year. They probably have no way of isolating inferior items for e-bay other than destructive testing and that won't help. In this case, the lot size to total order size ratio makes this kind of segregation impossible. They probably bang out every 5VZ-FE idler in 2011 in two days.

Your whole argument sounds more like marketing FUD than something with the ring of truth.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I have just repeated what was explained to me. I believed it but I would like to hear from someone at Toyota or a parts manu to find out the solid truth.
.

 

[TheDurk]

I have just repeated what was explained to me. I believed it but I would like to hear from someone at Toyota or a parts manu to find out the solid truth.
.

I think those are lousy sources for the solid truth; I'd rather talk to someone at a Toyota parts supplier...but they, too, would have their agenda.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Believe what you want but it is not marketing bs.

The guy I talked to owns a mechanic and fab shop and orders parts all time as an offical buyer.

I might not have every detail to the exact but my bullet point are pretty accurate IMO. I just wanted to raise this issue and hope people arent so quick to buy into the eBay hype.
.

 

[TheDurk]

Believe what you want but it is not marketing bs.

The guy I talked to owns a mechanic and fab shop and orders parts all time as an offical buyer.

I might not have every detail to the exact but my bullet point are pretty accurate IMO. I just wanted to raise this issue and hope people arent so quick to buy into the eBay hype.
.

Again, your source has a clear agenda--and the people that sell to him are probably the source of this 'information'. I know something about production and operations management, production planning, quality assurance, economic order quantities, etc. My M.B.A. is out-of-date but it's a good one. I cannot see how these top-flight parts suppliers could be ending up with identified lots of inferior parts out of short production runs for low-volume replacement parts. It doesn't make sense.