We are screwed...

BTW, if your employer isn't trying to negotiate the absolute BEST health insurance plan for his employees, then you need to find a new employer.

hahaha quit your job becuase the health care isn't good enough and take a lesser paying job with better health care? and risk going without till they find that job? how in the heck is that meant to work out for the middle class family with kids? we both know the vast majority of Americans don't have that option.

as a individual you really have no say in how your billed or what plan you get from your employer, and yes under the current bill not too much is going to change, just how insurance is handled and who can be insured and in what way.
this is just a step towards where we should be and were i want to be as a nation, you have to lay the first brick somewhere.


just next time your sick go to a new doctor and go through the process and try to negotiate your rate with the doc, i bet you get laughed out of the clinic, and that's what i'm trying to say and what i think is wrong, is that a doc will charge varying amounts depending on your insurance and on who you are, this doesn't even give us the option of paying out of pocket, try calling a doctor and asking how much to have some stitches removed, you'll get 50 follow up questions and a vague answer,, and that's what is essentially wrong with everything, imo, we wouldn't even need this bill if we could just set a standard across the board for all of this.

it either needs to be capitalist all the way or have government regulations on it, as the companies,doctors, everyone in the whole industry are in leagues together to make excessive amounts of money,before the bill do you think i could go to my employer and ask for an extra 28K a year and drop me from the insurance plan and let me manage my own health and medical debts? hell no, they would look at me like i was crazy, BUT if i could do that and there was a standard on it costs $50 an hour to see a doc and $50 for a test or whatever that would be great and i would be on board with that as well, but that will never happen so i'm left with what ever insurance my company gives me like stated above and no real idea of what anything costs.


as far as helping the ones without insurance and all of that, i'd still say we need a government program to insure them or at least pay for the visits
as in like a government insurance plan that your just born with as a citizen , i also think that if your illegal and you go to the hospital you get treated and deported at the same time, that will thin out the heard rather quickly one way or another.

i'm a first generation American my father came here when he was 22 and work very hard to be someone america would be proud to call a citizen, took him years of paper work and going through the system, illegals spit in his face and trash all of the hard work he put in to be a citizen, i have no problem with labor visa's for picking berries and all of the rest, if you come here just do it right, beyond that get the hell out and quit stealing for the 300 million of us who love our country and do right by it.


the illegals are the largest burden on our health care system, period, we need to fix this next to help fix everything.
 
hahaha quit your job becuase the health care isn't good enough and take a lesser paying job with better health care? and risk going without till they find that job? how in the heck is that meant to work out for the middle class family with kids? we both know the vast majority of Americans don't have that option.

as a individual you really have no say in how your billed or what plan you get from your employer

Yes, you do have a say. Your benefits are part of your salary! If my employer wanted to go to some shitty plan, I'd make my concerns known. And if it didn't change, you bet I'd leave. I negotiated my salary based on a certain level of benefits....I'll be damned if that level will drop.

BTW, nobody said to quit your job before you find something else...that would be stupid.

theizzardking said:
just next time your sick go to a new doctor and go through the process and try to negotiate your rate with the doc, i bet you get laughed out of the clinic

We have patients in our clinic all the time who cant pay the amount up front...so we put them on a payment plan (as required by the government). Some of them pay $1 per week....some of them pay it off in 3 months.

You ALWAYS have a choice in the costs. Let me ask you something, when you pull into a gas station and you dont like the price, what do you do? Leave and go to another. The same can be done with ANY doctor.

this is just a step towards where we should be and were i want to be as a nation, you have to lay the first brick somewhere.
Ask the elderly (yes, the non-working on a fixed income) how they like this step. The money to expand this program is coming directly from Medicare....the same program that we promised to the elderly. I do NOT think that it is right to take money from this group and give it to able bodies people who can still earn a living. The Republicans have come up with MANY solutions to fund this reform, but the Democrats refuse and just plan to take from Medicare.

Do you know that the amount in Medicare fraud for the state of Florida alone would fund this program for one year! Yes, Florida accounts for more than 20% of the $60 Billion in Medicare fraud that happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. And the shocking thing? Our government and president know about it....but they dont care! Read this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml

Now, you know why I dont want our government running our nations health insurance company. Imagine the amount of fraud that would happen then!
 
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Doctor and hospital shopping occurs everyday. From the hospital side, we have patients that come into our "Admitting" office and ask the price for a certain procedure. Then, they go to a different hospital and ask the same thing. They choose whatever hospital has the lowest rates.
 
man both of you guys are quoting for the manuals aren't you, i've tried that and trust me it's very confusing and you don't ever get a direct answer see my post about getting a $600 bill for a surgery when i asked up front weeks before the surgery if i was going to be responsible for any of the cash.

i've been screwed by doc's/insurance/health industry most of my life, from working at a pizza place with no insurance to having a Cadillac plan like i have now, from playing hockey since i was 4 i have been to the hospital more times then i can count physical therapy more then most people will ever have to go to. i have been through the system almost every way imaginable. heck i've been in the back of an ambulance around 8-9 times.
neck fracture,cracked ribs,more then a few concussions, lol a bunch of stuff.


you guys don't see the problem becuase your probably the average American , go to the doctor once or twice a year for something minor flash your card pay your co-pay and that's that, or your speaking about how you think your departments are run or how you run your department, sorry but what your saying isn't the case with 80% of the places i've been, most clinics and hospitals are private or at least for some reason those are the ones i always go to, not that i really look to be honest, i pick the guy that's closest and can get me in the soonest and if i like them i'll return. so i have also seen lots of different doctors as well.
 
most clinics and hospitals are private

I work for a private, for profit, outpatient clinic. Most of the clinics that I have worked at (over the years, about 7 different ones) have been the same. I have worked for a large, nation-wide clinic (US Oncology) and, despite the large amount of bureaucracy of the business, they practiced many of the same policies about billing as my current clinic.

As for your $600 bill, have you asked them why? Did you tell them that it was a mistake? Believe it or not, medical professionals make billing mistakes (the billing codes are not easy to decipher and they change constantly and there is not a set standard that tells a clinic what to bill for a certain procedure) and OFTEN have to issue monetary refunds to patients and insurance providers.

You need to speak to the billing department and your insurance to find out why this additional charge occurred.

BTW, you aren't the only one who has worked crappy jobs. I too have had jobs where I had no health insurance and just hoped that I didn't get sick or injured. I don't blame that on anyone but myself...

man both of you guys are quoting for the manuals aren't you

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I am just answering questions and trying to clear up some of the confusion about medical billing since I do have quite a bit of experience in that area.
 
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BTW, you aren't the only one who has worked crappy jobs. I too have had jobs where I had no health insurance and just hoped that I didn't get sick or injured. I don't blame that on anyone but myself...



I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I am just answering questions and trying to clear up some of the confusion about medical billing since I do have quite a bit of experience in that area.

but have you ever had no insurance and got sick or injured?

and what i mean about quoting from the manual is that, the policies and such your telling me about are far different from what i have personally experienced a bunch of times, maybe it's just my state or something, i noticed it was better in California wen i lived there.



and thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this jermey, it really is appreciated, it's showing that maybe the problem is more localized as opposed to a national problem, as in that brake shop screwed me over so i just have to find a good one sort of deal, you know, to put it in 4runner terms, lol
 
but have you ever had no insurance and got sick or injured?
Yes, and I paid out of my pocket for the care that I received. And then years later, I paid off the credit card bill. The I usually visited the local Walgreens Clinic for minor stuff...they were the cheapest.

theizzardking said:
and what i mean about quoting from the manual is that, the policies and such your telling me about are far different from what i have personally experienced a bunch of times, maybe it's just my state or something, i noticed it was better in California wen i lived there.
I imagine that it can be related to your geographical location...however, it is most likely simply the doctors that you choose. In an area where you have a LARGE amount of medical facilities, then there is a lot of competition among them...so if they aren't top notch, then they wont do well. Houston has one of the largest medical complexes in the world, so if a private clinic wants to compete with that, then they'd better be on top of their game.

theizzardking said:
and thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this jermey, it really is appreciated, it's showing that maybe the problem is more localized as opposed to a national problem, as in that brake shop screwed me over so i just have to find a good one sort of deal, you know, to put it in 4runner terms, lol
That is a good comparison. There are good companies and bad companies in all aspects of the economy...medical care is no different. When you need to have something done, shop around, ask current patients, read about the facility online and you'll get the best care for your money. You don't have to go where your doctor refers you.
 
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Ha! So, you think that the people selling the plans to your employer aren't businessmen? You think the people passing these laws aren't businessmen? You think the people telling doctors how they should treat their patients if they want to get paid aren't businessmen? THEY ALL ARE! None of those people give a damn about your health care....they are only interested in MONEY. That would not be different under this new bill....we'll just be dealing with a different group of businessmen...and now these are also politicians.

It would be a regulated group of businessmen. Businessmen required by law to follow a set of standards. Maybe it's just me, but when we all follow the same rules, it tends to even the playing field.

If you want to negotiate your own plan, then, by all means, go ahead. Nothing is stopping you! However, you must realize that you are not going to get as good of a deal as your employer will. It's like the difference between grocery shopping at Whole Foods versus Costco. You get better quality from WF, but it's also more expensive. When you buy in bulk from Costco, you get a cheaper product that is likely of lower quality.

Close but not quite. There are many suppliers/manufacturers that operate successful businesses by selling directly to the consumer. It creates a lean structure that eliminates some or all of the 3rd parties and allows more profit for the supplier/manufacturer while creating a greater savings for the end consumer. The end consumer would typically not purchase in the same quantity as a distributor would, which would likely increase the cost. So the issue is quantity, not quality.

BTW, if your employer isn't trying to negotiate the absolute BEST health insurance plan for his employees, then you need to find a new employer. An employer that doesn't realize that healthy employees are good for his business should not be running a business. My employer provides me with an EXCELLENT plan. He worked hard, went through a LOT of negotiation and found a plan that his employees like and would be beneficial for his company.

To find a new employer because you are unhappy with the terms of the health insurance plan available is not always a practical option. All the employers I have worked for have put profit over personnel. And I suspect that this mentality is far more prevalent amongst American employers simply because we are capitalist. Creating a standard for health care and health insurance could alleviate the work necessary for an employer to negotiate a high quality and affordable health insurance plan for employees.

Again, NOTHING in this bill has anything to do with health "CARE"....this is only about how the INSURANCE is provided.

The fact is that most Americans are provided health care through the use of their health insurance. To say that this current reform bill has nothing to do with health care is short sighted. The current reform bill was a compromise as a result of the failed push for national health care.
 
Businessmen required by law to follow a set of standards.
Haha.....yeah, and everyone always follow the laws, dont they?


The fact is that most Americans are provided health care through the use of their health insurance.

That is true, however, the term "health care" was used for one reason only....and that is because it is more heartfelt than the term "health insurance".

Nothing is being reformed in regard to health "care"...
 
Some people in life are easily fooled....:lmao:

dude just because your getting your ass handed to you in the other forums doesn't mean you need to start trolling the whole board and start making fun of my very serious medical conditions and the crap i've had happen to me through out my life.


you sir have no class and seriously are one of the most childish people i have ever come across.

i will not respond to you further in this thread.
 
There are six core reasons why Health Care is a bad bill. They are:

First, the number of Americans that need healthcare is not precise. The number of estimated Americans that need health care ranges from 30 million to 45 million. It is hard to accurately plan a bill without knowing how big the problem is you are addressing. Next, health care without going through an employer currently costs an average of $13,500 per family. This healthcare bill has not stated how much it will lower the insurance premiums. It is not a miracle bill by any means, but let’s be super conservative and assume it will reduce premiums by 50%. That will bring health insurance down to $6,750 per family. It is also relatively safe to say that the 30-45 million Americans that do not have healthcare are low income. Some are middle class people that cannot get health care because of pre-existing conditions, but by far the biggest reason for lack of insurance is affordability. Let’s take an immigrant couple making 30K a year. They make around 26K after taxes. They obviously can not afford to pay ½ of their income right now for insurance. But can they afford to pay nearly $7,000 for the new insurance? Can a family making 26K a year really afford to spend 25% of their income on health insurance, and live on the remaining $17,000? NO!! They cannot. It is tough enough living on 26K a year without insurance, but with this new bill, they will only have $17,000 to support their family. We all know this is nearly impossible. So if these people still can’t afford insurance, even after this bill, the number the Democrats advertised is clearly inflated. It IS the number of people uninsured, but it IS NOT the number of people the bill will help. The correct number is the amount of people making in between 35-50K that WILL now be able to afford health care, that pre-health care bill could not afford it. The people who still cannot afford it will end up bypassing the mandate with the tax discussed later.

Second, the cost of the bill itself needs to be touched on. The Office of Management and Budget said that the Iraq war would cost us 50 to 60 Billion dollars. How much does it actually cost? Well, so far it’s over 1 Trillion. The government can not be trusted with their numbers and projections, it cannot be argued. It happened with the bank bailout, and the auto bailout. The government has the financial discipline of Paris Hilton. It has no sense of price or value, and certainly doesn’t know when to stop.

Third, do we trust the government with this? The government takes over a failing auto company, deemed “too big to fail”. Even though its market share is at the top with 19%, followed by Toyota with 17.6%, and Ford with 16%, GM’s market share was expected to fall rapidly. Even through it was expected to fall, the government took over 80% of the company anyway. The taxpayers funded a 50 Billion dollar bailout. What has the company done since then? Nothing. Its market share still continues to plunge, while Ford prospers. That 50 Billion went really far. Social Security and Medicare are both bankrupt systems. Those programs themselves either need to be reformed, or else taxes rose for those programs, which nobody wants. If the government can’t manage these programs correctly and effectively, why do we trust them with everyone’s health care? Yes, it is still through private insurance companies, but the government has itself deeply intertwined in the industry. There is a difference between busting a couple of trusts such as in the early 20th century, and getting an entire industry wrapped around the government, catering every aspect to its laws and regulations. The government is there to provide a light framework in an industry, and let the companies then adhere, while letting them do what is in their business interests. They are not there to build a rigid structure full of rules and regulations, or new programs to govern an industry. Some of the only large companies that should cater to the government are defense companies, such as Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman. As any economics teacher would tell you, you do not mess with free trade or a capitalistic economy, and if you do, you better know exactly what you’re doing. It is hard to give a reason why we should trust the government with a trillion dollar program. IF, it in reality only costs a trillion dollars.

Fourth, the polls show that the American people do not support it. A CNN poll shows that 59% of people do not support it. Rasmussen, a very famous and reputable polling report recorded the following statistics:
1) 54% oppose and 41% support
2) 45% strongly oppose and 26% strongly favor
3) Of independents, 59% are opposed, 34% support
4) 57% believe health care costs will go up
5) 81% believe that health care will cost more than expected. No surprise there.

A FOX poll on their website shows that 65% of Americans say the bill will hurt them more than help.

If Americans will love this bill as Pelosi likes to say, why are so many state Attorney Generals challenging the constitutionality of the bill? This is only after a couple days! Sounds like America is a huge fan of the bill. (sarcasm)

With all of these stats in mind, is it worth passing the bill? Is it worth hurting 65% of Americans in order to help out 30-45 million, which we already established to be inflated?

Is health care even a human right? If it is a human right, we should be all over the glove providing people health care. Human rights are things such as right to property, right to shelter, right to equal protection under the country’s law, freedom of though, etc. We have fought for those rights in other countries for decades. We’ve heard of Containment, referring to communism and halting oppressive groups, but when did health care such a popular human, global right? The correct term would be it’s a national right. But don’t look for that in the Constitution, or the Bible, Koran or Torah, you won’t find it. It’s not a right; it’s a luxury that 90 to 95% of Americans can experience. 90% of Americans have cars. Is owning a car a “human”… I mean national right? In America, you almost need a car to get a job, have a family, buy groceries, and even go to the doctor. It wouldn’t surprise anyone if the Democratic government added a car tax to allow the “car less” 5-10% to purchase a vehicle. After all, we use our vehicles more than our health insurance, and vehicles typically cost more. Why not add a new tax and create a poorly calculated trillion dollar program to fund it? It’s identical to what we’re doing now. If we were out to spend a trillion dollars, we’d be better off giving everyone a car, than health care. I’m sure that’s what poor people would want because it provides them greater opportunities and is without a doubt more limiting. What can you accomplish without a vehicle these days?

Fifth, health care companies are losing out on customers. The whole mandate can be bypassed by paying a 2% income tax. Starting in 2015, the tax is $96 to go without insurance. In 2016 it moves up to over $100. Shortly after, the 2% tax rule is implemented. Now unless a person is really rich, they are better off paying 2% of their income and avoiding the new health insurance costs. They can go do their annual check-up and pay about $150 cash to get it done. If the Doctor tells them they are sick, they can then go buy insurance. The companies are mandated to take those patients with this health care bill. Why have insurance if you are a healthy person? We need to have insurance currently because we won’t be accepted by an insurance company if we wait until we are sick. With this bill, just wait until you get sick to buy insurance. Why waste the money? Even if someone without insurance gets into a major car accident and gets airlifted, the hospitals still have to take them. It’s unlawful for a public, or private hospital to deny someone in an emergency situation. Unless you are in a coma for a very long time, it still benefits you to buy the insurance once the incident happens, rather than the years leading up to it. All of the surgeries are not done at once; a patient has plenty of time to get covered in order to avoid the costs of the upcoming surgeries.

Health care needs to be reformed. Nobody denies that. It’s a question of funding and government involvement. Should the government wrap itself around and squeeze the health care industry like a snake and breaking and conforming it to the government’s wants? Or should the government work with the companies to create tweaks in the current policies so that the industry can restart itself in a way that accommodates as many Americans as possible?

As you can see, there are too many variable in this bill. There are far too many unknowns. It is dangerous and irresponsible to “throw darts” in politics, by passing a bill, hoping it works without calculating every variable. That would never fly in Apple, Sprint, or ExxonMobil. So why should it happen in the most important office building in the world? There’s no excuse. Congress should adopt Lockheed Martins slogan “We never forget who we’re working for”, because the have clearly decided to ignore the majority, the Americans who do not want this bill
 
dude just because your getting your ass handed to you in the other forums.

Hahaha, you can't read nor comprehend for a 28 year old worth a damn...you chickened out of a challenged that you help create...you called everyone in the thread, "idiots"...geez, your interpretation of the matter is rather strange.... :infidel::moon:
 
yeah but the money has to come from somewhere, right, it's not like they just decide to charge less, that write off comes from my tax dollars,increased premiums, and all of the rest, could your company stay in business if every 3 or 4th person was charged at 50% off or 80% or whatever other numbers you guys are saying.

Every business out there has buffers to protect themselves from uncollectible receivables and doubtful accounts. Sure, it'll eat into profits and someone ends up paying for it. But these 50-80% discounts that are spoken of is the cost of doing business.

of course not so that means me and you pay the rest of that persons bill one way or another, so why not make this above board instead of backroom deals with doc's and insurance companies and lawyers in the first place, your cousin had to hire a lawyer to get what was right, why is that? why did he get 50% off, does that mean they charged 50% too much to start with? you see what i'm saying, just make it law so we know what the f is going on.

it's not like they wave a wand and that extra money for the procedures just disappears, or am i wrong?

Right, there is no magic wand for extra money. But Treasury appearantly has no problems printing greenbacks and this reform is projected to cost $1B. Where's that $1B going to come from?

He got a lawyer because the other party's insurance company said they would send claim forms for his treatment via email, fax, snail mail, certified mail, etc. after numerous calls to them. IMO, my cousin acted in good faith and made many attempts to resolve the matter without seeking a lawyer. The doctor he was seeing couldn't provide anymore treatments because he hasn't been paid after 5-8 visits and my cousin is past due with the doctor. He hasn't has his any of his medical bills reduced. When he was seeking counsel, the attorney provided what his fee structure would be. I asked the attorney what happens if the medical bills plus your fees total or exceed the settlement. That's when the attorney said, he will ensure my cousin isn't left upside down by seeking counsel.

For the record, my cousin isn't suing because he wants some coin. He just wants treatment and to recover from his injuries. The insurance company backed him into a corner and he has no other choice in getting their attention without representation. Within a day or two of the insurance company being informed that my cousin has representation, the claim forms magically appeared. They brought it onto themselves.
 
Good god, everyone in this thread is going to need quality affordable health care for all of the flame war enduced carpal tunnel that will result!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :gun5:
 
this is just a step towards where we should be and were i want to be as a nation, you have to lay the first brick somewhere.


just next time your sick go to a new doctor and go through the process and try to negotiate your rate with the doc, i bet you get laughed out of the clinic, and that's what i'm trying to say and what i think is wrong, is that a doc will charge varying amounts depending on your insurance and on who you are, this doesn't even give us the option of paying out of pocket, try calling a doctor and asking how much to have some stitches removed, you'll get 50 follow up questions and a vague answer,, and that's what is essentially wrong with everything, imo, we wouldn't even need this bill if we could just set a standard across the board for all of this.

The first brick? Why don't you move to a socialist country like UK or Germany? You clearly want that.

You're talking about setting one price for all doctors, regardless of quality. Ask people how price controls worked during the oil crisis when there were lines around the block for 3 gallons of gas? (Remember, good mileage then was 12 mpg.)

What, that's not the same thing? OK, ask people in Canada about healthcare. They have price controlled healthcare. Ask about waits for knee replacements and many other procedures. Heck, ask about waits for cancer surgery.

For that matter, ask MY MOTHER about cancer surgery. Florida has a mild shortage due to Medicare rates and generous malpractice laws (generous to lawyers, not medical professionals). An oncologist in my stepmother's family (who works in Ohio) got more and more upset as I discussed the time-line with him. His hospital had a 98% or so rate of less than 21 days from first biopsy to surgery. He talked about Mayo clinic doing the whole process in a week. Biopsy on Monday and surgery on Thur or Fri. My mother waited 66 days, and that was due to me pushing the doctors to find earlier dates! She had 2 lobes of her lung removed instead of 1, and nearly died of a mild case of pneumonia due largely to the additional lobe removal.

Yes, I do believe that the new health care system will kill people. I know from personal experience that delays happen and these delays cause additional damage to patients.
 
Good god, everyone in this thread is going to need quality affordable health care for all of the flame war enduced carpal tunnel that will result!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :gun5:

Last year I had this numb feeling in my middle three fingers on my right hand. I went to the doctors and she asked if I am on the computer most of the day. You guess it, carpal tunnel, I had to wear a brace at night and use a pad by the key board. Problem fixed, which I guess is not what I can say about our helath care.
 

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