Went in for 90K, came out with...

[Erkelbot]

Just visited my local dealer for the 90K checkup and was due for an oil change. It was a couple thousand premature, but I like to stay ahead of the game.

While it was in, I got the normal You're in the yellow on brakes, tires are decent, etc... BUT, they also called to tell me that my CV boots are torn -- both of them -- and are leaking pretty bad. They said both need to be replaced in short order. They also told me that the water pump was leaking slowly, and that it's a common problem... Tally that up and we've got an extra ~$1,900 recommended in maintenance.

I'm not dumb, so I asked about the severity of the leak and CV tears. They said both should be dealt with imminently, but that the leak in the water pump was neither "pouring out" or "seeping". I think he was getting at it being really slow. I had them refill the overflow tank so I can monitor it in the interim. I know the CVs aren't "bad" until we start hearing clicking on turns, so I'm not as worried about that.

I picked it up $550 later (90K bill, sans air filters), and crawled under the truck. The CVs look gloppy and greasy, but when looking at them quickly I didn't see any tears. I wonder if I have a leaking clamp on my hands instead. I've also -- in my paranoia -- thought maybe they put that grease there themselves after I declined the repair. I am certain that I went under the truck within the last 2K miles, and I saw nothing like it. And when I was under there, I was looking closely at the suspension -- this was when I put the Bilsteins in. My father-in-law also looked things over when he was down there (he's a mechanic), and he said it all looks to be in great shape.

As for the water pump, that worried me a bit more. He said there was some crust from the leak on the pump itself. I haven't had a chance to visually inspect anything myself, but I can say I haven't smelled any coolant in the engine bay -- nor has there been any seepage under the car in the heated garage. I guess it could be leaking really slowly, but the fact that no other dealer saw this (no other Toyota dealer, which another dealer saw it 3K ago) seems suspect.

My question: Do water pumps go often with these trucks? I have read about radiators, but are the pumps problematic too? Am I being unreasonably paranoid about the requested repairs -- and how about the costs?... Seems high to me. The WP is a bit of a PITA, but the CVs is really just a mechanical swap -- right? $950 is what they line-itemed me for CVs...

I guess this stuff happens -- even with the most dependable trucks -- but this kind of stuff seems to be happening a bit early for my liking at 88K (a 2008).

 

[RUN-4-LIFE]

950 for cvs. Bs. Parts can't be more than 300 to 400 from a dealer. Got mine replaced in my old Avalanche at tow companies cost (cv was from a dealer and under a hundred). They grabbed from my front axel. Took 45 minutes to replace. Figure 2 hours for two. RIP OFF. as far as water pump, second opinion. They may fail premature, mass manufacturing to fault. But I'd hope they wouldn't purposely harm your truck. Good luck

 

[TORCH]

Only have a second to respond right now but get under the car and check for leaks and torn boots yourself. Then you can know if they are taking you for a ride or not. I highly doubt your water pump is bad before 90K and your CVs may worn the boot allowing them to leak some but they don't need to be replaced entirely if the shafts are good, just the boot has to be replaced and refilled with grease.

 

[sambishop]

I don't think the water pumps are known to fail, as much as leak. I think they are known to eventually leak. At the same time, I did my water pump and timing belt at 174k (first time it was done, I bought the car at 170k) and it was perfect, no leak, no fail.

 

[Erkelbot]

Yeah, I thought the same thing about the costs. It didn't feel like it added up to me.

It actually felt a lot like when I brought in my wife's old Murano at 22K miles for an oil change. The diff was leaking and they said it "needed to be rebuilt". 26 man hours to do it -- $3K or something like that. It was in by 8am, and I picked it up by 1pm (called at noon about how it was done). It was under warranty, so it was NMCA picking up the tab. Still, I looked at the bill -- 24 hours of labor...

I asked the guy at the service counter about it when I was picking it up. I asked how 6 people could be working on my car at the same time (on the same part) to make up 24 hours of labor. He looked at me blankly...

Anyway, the point being I don't trust the system when it comes to vehicles. way too much margin floating around out there, and not enough respect for the folks who keep their lights on like me. I think I'll go back to the other dealer to do an inspection -- see what they recommend. I have a feeling they'll find different results.

In the meantime, I'll monitor for changes in fluids for that WP.

 

[Brian3676]

My water pump started leaking at about 85K miles. I just replaced it and the timing belt at the same time. Got the Asin kit off Amazon. Its OEM Toyota without the Toyota box.

As for the CVs, clean them up and keep an eye on them.

 

[Erkelbot]

If I HAD to be digging down there for a timing belt, it'd be a no-brainer. But ripping everything apart at ~90K when it's not necessary doesn't sound like a good time to me.

Good to know about the Asin kit. If I have to do it, I'll use that one and save some cash.

My water pump started leaking at about 85K miles. I just replaced it and the timing belt at the same time. Got the Asin kit off Amazon. Its OEM Toyota without the Toyota box.

As for the CVs, clean them up and keep an eye on them.

 

[m85476585]

Yeah, I thought the same thing about the costs. It didn't feel like it added up to me.

It actually felt a lot like when I brought in my wife's old Murano at 22K miles for an oil change. The diff was leaking and they said it "needed to be rebuilt". 26 man hours to do it -- $3K or something like that. It was in by 8am, and I picked it up by 1pm (called at noon about how it was done). It was under warranty, so it was NMCA picking up the tab. Still, I looked at the bill -- 24 hours of labor...

I asked the guy at the service counter about it when I was picking it up. I asked how 6 people could be working on my car at the same time (on the same part) to make up 24 hours of labor. He looked at me blankly...

Anyway, the point being I don't trust the system when it comes to vehicles. way too much margin floating around out there, and not enough respect for the folks who keep their lights on like me. I think I'll go back to the other dealer to do an inspection -- see what they recommend. I have a feeling they'll find different results.

In the meantime, I'll monitor for changes in fluids for that WP.

The markup on repairs is frustrating. They have a standard labor rate $100-$150 per hour, but techs don't get paid that much. They say it's to cover overhead. Then they have "book times" for different jobs that are longer than it ever takes, and they always charge the book time not the actual time. Then there is markup on parts in case they don't have enough money yet.

 

[Erkelbot]

Yep -- more frustrating when you're footing the bill, but frustrating nonetheless. 24 hours was insane for a diff. I guarantee that was one guy keeping at it for 3.5 hours.

The markup on repairs is frustrating. They have a standard labor rate $100-$150 per hour, but techs don't get paid that much. They say it's to cover overhead. Then they have "book times" for different jobs that are longer than it ever takes, and they always charge the book time not the actual time. Then there is markup on parts in case they don't have enough money yet.

 

[CXS]

On my second t-belt replacement the water pump was showing seepage at the gasket and I had it replaced. My first t-belt it was fine so I left it, why replace a part that's fine is my view. In other words my water pump was good for 196,000 miles.

As far as the other stuff it sounds like you need to do s good cleaning so you can see what's leaking. Power wash it all and see what you can see. I wouldn't trust the dealer's opinion myself.

 

[Erkelbot]

I'll get under there with some gloves and wipe it down to see what's underneath the goo. I kind of suspect a leak at the clamp, but can't be 100% without clearing it off. I didn't see anything though when I first got under there...

On my second t-belt replacement the water pump was showing seepage at the gasket and I had it replaced. My first t-belt it was fine so I left it, why replace a part that's fine is my view. In other words my water pump was good for 196,000 miles.

As far as the other stuff it sounds like you need to do s good cleaning so you can see what's leaking. Power wash it all and see what you can see. I wouldn't trust the dealer's opinion myself.

 

[Counterpoint08]

OP, not sure about your water pump, but here's my story. I bought an '08 4Runner V6 SR5 (Certified Pre Owned) in 2012 with 58,000 miles on it. Maintenance history was good -all done at a Toyota dealer. At 61,000 miles the water pump started leaking -it was a pretty good leak -actual drops were coming off it while the engine was running. In my case it was replaced under warranty so I paid nothing, but my point is that they DO go bad and if you search on the forum, there have been other low mileage water pumps leaking. They don't FAIL per se, but there have been a number of cases of leaks. I think there was even a TSB about them. In the 4 years I've had the vehicle, that's the only problem I've ever had.
As far as the dealer is concerned, it's always hard to tell when they are shady and when they are honest. I thought reasonably highly of my dealership for several years, and then I got an oil change where the work order said they added 7 quarts of oil to my engine and it was true -overfilled. I insisted on going to the back and watching them drain out the excess. Otherwise they have done fine. I always check everything and mark the oil filter and leave marks on the wheels when I am having them do the tire rotation to make sure it gets done. A few weeks ago I bought a cabin air filter and replaced it myself. When I went in last week for an oil change, they told me it was dirty and I wanted to punch the guy in the face. I'm sure they didn't even check it. Just trying to steal from me. It's a shame they have to be stealerships and can't just do an honest job for an honest buck. Anyhow, good luck to you...

 

[z28forlife]

I work for lexus as a tech and honestly I take some offense when everyone says "stealership" and they're all crooks. I'm not gonna lie, there are some techs that overcharge and some that will say you need something when you don't but 99% of them are honest guys just trying to make an honest day's wage. We get payed flat rate which means if the book says it takes 1 hour but we can do it in 30 min then we still get payed for the hour. On the other hand though if it takes me 2 hours because something happens or I'm just not good at that particular job then I still only get payed for the hour. I know on the gx470 and our SUVs the axle assembly is pricey, around $500 or so for each front axle. To reboot an axle we charge 3 hours. $65 in parts and 125 an hour times 3. To just replace one its 2 hours labor. Always depends on the dealer though. Those mainly leak on the inner boot and the clamp starts coming loose and grease gets thrown everywhere. You'll definitely be able to tell if it's new grease or been there for a while. Also, waterpumps don't typically leak at that mileage but some do unfortunately. I'd keep an eye it.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The problem is that "Book Time" is subjective, for example if you go by Toyota's Flat Rate manual most of the jobs the Techs would be underpaid because Toyota's Flat Rate manual is all warranty time which is mostly unrealistic so they can save money on repairs. AllData is one source for "Book Times" and occasionally they tend to have more generous times as well as combinations (i.e. if equipped with A/C Add X amount of time), these tend to be more fair. Without getting into it too much, Flat Rate is a double edged sword for both the technician and customer, not to mention most everyone's labor rate these days is floating around the $100~150 mark.

For example-

Toyota (Warranty) Flat Rate: R&R One Side CV Axle [1.1hrs] (Add .5hrs for both sides)
Toyota (Warranty) Flat Rate: R&R One Side CV Axle Boots [1.6hrs[ (Add .8hrs for both sides)

AllData: R&R One Side CV Axle [1.3hrs] (2.1hrs for both sides)
AllData: R&R One Side CV Axle Boot [1.8hrs w/ Seals] (3.6hrs for both sides)

Toyota Flat Rate means I am expected to do the other side in half the time for half the pay of one side (which makes little sense). AllData's time is more realistic and fair in this case, leaving enough room that slower technician isn't rushed and does quality work. Honestly the very existence of "Warranty Time" vs. "Book Time" causes a lot of issues at both the customer and technician level and leaves a large grey area where a service writer could overcharge on parts, charge the customer for "Book Time" while paying the tech "Warranty Time" and collecting the leftover.

@CXS

I would be careful, Timing Belts made in the last 20yrs do not degrade the same as older belts did. They can look brand new up until the point they just snap like a rubber band, we have a few "Old" (7~9yr old) timing belts that if I just wiped the dust off of most people would swear are brand new They don't develop cracks and discolour as bad as say a serpentine belt.

[MENTION=96708]Erkelbot[/MENTION]

Check the small diameter clamps on the inboard side. Those are the ones that tend to leak and/or tear just behind the clamp edges; usually it's just a loose clamp, but sometimes they tear just behind them (mine did a while back.) Also, while you can try and tighten the clamp with a tool; chances are it will still leak and need to be re-booted (which takes longer than straight swapping, but the parts are cheaper.) If you want, you can wash the crust off the water pump and see if it comes back; I would take a mirror and just peek under the water pump before you do that and see how much crust is there.

[MENTION=134368]Counterpoint08[/MENTION]
I've noticed the first Water Pump on the V8's seem to leak by the time the first timing belt is due, after that they seem to last a lot longer. I genuinely do not know why that seems to be the case, but that's the pattern I've noticed.

7qts of oil in the 2UZ-FE is usually just at the "Full" mark for me, there's a datasheet somewhere on TIS that says it's like 6.8~6.9wts of oil; but I haven't had any issue with 7qts in any of the 2UZ-FE's nor have I had a customer mention it being overfilled. Makes me wonder if they didn't replace the filter or just didn't wait a minute or two to let the pan drain completely...

Something else to point out is that if you're not using Recirculation on your HVAC and you live in a city or dusty area; those cabin air filters can get dirty pretty fast (not in one week typically, that sounds like either they didn't look or have poor standards on what qualifies as "dirty"). I've had customers who come back anywhere from a month to 5k and the cabin filters are just dark brown. You don't realize how much crap is in the air until you stop to think about it.

 

[CXS]

Thanks BW, good to know about the belt appearance but I did get it replaced the other day at 196k. Probably going to last longer than I will.

I understand exactly what you Toyota techs are saying and believe most techs are honest. The problem is that one bad tech sours the entire dealership to consumers like myself. I won't bore you with my story but I'll never go back to that dealer.

It should go w/o saying the same applies to independents as well.

Edit - Oops, I just read my own post. I meant to say I didn't replace the water pump when I had the t-belt replaced.

 

[SlvrV8Rnnr]

Just visited my local dealer for the 90K checkup and was due for an oil change. It was a couple thousand premature, but I like to stay ahead of the game.

While it was in, I got the normal You're in the yellow on brakes, tires are decent, etc... BUT, they also called to tell me that my CV boots are torn -- both of them -- and are leaking pretty bad. They said both need to be replaced in short order. They also told me that the water pump was leaking slowly, and that it's a common problem... Tally that up and we've got an extra ~$1,900 recommended in maintenance.

I'm not dumb, so I asked about the severity of the leak and CV tears. They said both should be dealt with imminently, but that the leak in the water pump was neither "pouring out" or "seeping". I think he was getting at it being really slow. I had them refill the overflow tank so I can monitor it in the interim. I know the CVs aren't "bad" until we start hearing clicking on turns, so I'm not as worried about that.

I picked it up $550 later (90K bill, sans air filters), and crawled under the truck. The CVs look gloppy and greasy, but when looking at them quickly I didn't see any tears. I wonder if I have a leaking clamp on my hands instead. I've also -- in my paranoia -- thought maybe they put that grease there themselves after I declined the repair. I am certain that I went under the truck within the last 2K miles, and I saw nothing like it. And when I was under there, I was looking closely at the suspension -- this was when I put the Bilsteins in. My father-in-law also looked things over when he was down there (he's a mechanic), and he said it all looks to be in great shape.

As for the water pump, that worried me a bit more. He said there was some crust from the leak on the pump itself. I haven't had a chance to visually inspect anything myself, but I can say I haven't smelled any coolant in the engine bay -- nor has there been any seepage under the car in the heated garage. I guess it could be leaking really slowly, but the fact that no other dealer saw this (no other Toyota dealer, which another dealer saw it 3K ago) seems suspect.

My question: Do water pumps go often with these trucks? I have read about radiators, but are the pumps problematic too? Am I being unreasonably paranoid about the requested repairs -- and how about the costs?... Seems high to me. The WP is a bit of a PITA, but the CVs is really just a mechanical swap -- right? $950 is what they line-itemed me for CVs...

I guess this stuff happens -- even with the most dependable trucks -- but this kind of stuff seems to be happening a bit early for my liking at 88K (a 2008).

I apologize for butting in on your thread but i am hearing clicking occasionally on turns in my 2005. Not every turn but it's like a click/pop noise... Toyota replaced my boots last year, maybe 2 years now. My question is how serious is this issue? Should I have it checked out immediately?

 

[Ralph Blake]

I think it's time to again post this. STAY far AWAY from the TOYOTA DEALERS STEALER NON SERVICE DEPT.S. Them CV Boots are torn are the oldest SCAM used by them monkeys. Water pump leaking? do you see anything like it leaking? Trust me when one is failing you see something.
Find a good local garage to deal with and do as i have done for years, change your own oil and filter it's a simple job.:banana:

 

[Ralph Blake]

I apologize for butting in on your thread but i am hearing clicking occasionally on turns in my 2005. Not every turn but it's like a click/pop noise... Toyota replaced my boots last year, maybe 2 years now. My question is how serious is this issue? Should I have it checked out immediately?

Is there a Hibdon tire shop near you? If not find a good front end shop and let them check things out. I am willing to bet if you ask your Toyota Dealers stealer non service Dept. you will be told the whole front end needs replacing.

 

[Erkelbot]

Don't get me wrong...I don't think every dealer is dishonest -- nor do I think every tech is dishonest. I do, however, feel as though it's really easy to be and get away with it -- and the upside for a dealership is tremendous with the profit margins in labor. In my case, having a water pump fail and both CVs in less than 3K (since my last Toyota inspection) is suspect.

Coolant seems stable for now, so I am going to wait a bit and bring it to a friend's shop to have him look over everything and see what he would do (he's a couple weeks out). He guessed -- if it was full CV replacement, a water pump, and the serpentine belt -- it'd be much less than half of what they quoted me -- with parts. 3 hours for the CVs (1.5 each side), and 2 hours for the pump. Why did I not bring it to him in the first place? Well, you don't want to call in favors all the time...Then it just becomes a bother. I don't want to be that guy.

 

[Counterpoint08]

[MENTION=134368]Counterpoint08[/MENTION]
I've noticed the first Water Pump on the V8's seem to leak by the time the first timing belt is due, after that they seem to last a lot longer. I genuinely do not know why that seems to be the case, but that's the pattern I've noticed.

7qts of oil in the 2UZ-FE is usually just at the "Full" mark for me, there's a datasheet somewhere on TIS that says it's like 6.8~6.9wts of oil; but I haven't had any issue with 7qts in any of the 2UZ-FE's nor have I had a customer mention it being overfilled. Makes me wonder if they didn't replace the filter or just didn't wait a minute or two to let the pan drain completely...

Something else to point out is that if you're not using Recirculation on your HVAC and you live in a city or dusty area; those cabin air filters can get dirty pretty fast (not in one week typically, that sounds like either they didn't look or have poor standards on what qualifies as "dirty"). I've had customers who come back anywhere from a month to 5k and the cabin filters are just dark brown. You don't realize how much crap is in the air until you stop to think about it.

Hi [MENTION=100496]blackworks[/MENTION], always good to hear from a pro, but you may have missed that my 08 is a v6, not a v8. How does that change your opinion of the water pump issue and the 7 quart oil change? As for the cabin air filter, I check it before every oil change, and am able to go more than a year without needing it changed, so I thought them claiming it was dirty in 2 weeks was pure dealer theft.