What Am I Going to Do Right - Audio Version

[tbst]

Yes, I am aware of the audio section. However, last time I posted there, and what seems to be a common theme, is people telling you you need better components or not getting a straight answer.

Objective:

Design the best sound with some constraints, as shown below.

I guess I should describe the sound I want. I want good sound. Like being able to cruise on the freeway and jam to Clapton or Black Keys or some like music listen to some poppycock music (occasionally, when passengers demand it). I don't need to "bump" per se, I just want good, clean sound. The runner does not need to shake!

Supplies:

Money, some time, your input.

So, here is what I have (or have on the way) [Constraints]:

Pioneer 5400 Amp (Two channel) - 125 RMS 4 Ohm or 380 RMS 4 ohm Bridged
Amazon.com: Pioneer GM-5400T 760-Watt, 2-Channel Power Amplifier: Car Electronics

Polk db6501 Component Speakers - 100 RMS 4 Ohm
Amazon.com: Polk Audio DB6501 6.5-Inch 2-Way Component System (Pair, Silver): Electronics

Four gauge wiring kit.

So I am thinking about building a subwoofer box (really doesn't seem difficult) and putting in a subwoofer.

What I am thinking:

Rockford 12" 250 RMS Subwoofer
Amazon.com: Rockford Fosgate R2D4-12 Prime R2 DVC 4 Ohm 12-Inch 250 Watts RMS 500 Watts Peak Subwoofer: Electronics

What I am thinking I need:

Another amp. I have been Craigslist surfing. I think I can get another amp of the same kind I have above (Pioneer 5400T) for $40 from someone on Craiglist. Also, I can get a Pioneer 9500 on Craigslist for $100 (different person I have been in contact with).

The Pioneer 9500 is 75 RMS at 4 Ohm or 200 RMS at 4 Ohm bridged.
Amazon.com: Pioneer GM-D9500F Class-FD 4-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier: Electronics

I could use two of the Pioneer 5400T and power the speakers and then bridge one of them and power the sub.

Or I could use the Pioneer 9500 and bridge it (200 RMS at 4 Ohm Bridged) and then power the sub with the Pioneer 5400.

What do you guys think I should do? I am open to other subwoofer ideas in the same range, price wise. Which amp should I go with? Should I spend the extra $60 on the better one? What kind of sound will I get with this set up?

Let me know if you see any glaring technical issues as well, please.

 

[A.Wilson013]

I am not an audiophile by any means, but in my experience with subs (back in high school when parents bought the "best" ones for me and my buddies) a well tuned 10" sub will sound better than a 12"... I was pushing a 12" JL W3v2 and my buddy had a 10" JL W6v1. The 10" had nothing on my 12" when it came to "impressing" the girls whilst cruising the Seaside Roundabout, but when it came to just listening to music on a drive, that thing was incredible. Keep in mind that both of these subs were in the SAME cars, with the SAME box (E36 M3's with JL StealthBoxs) and the same amps (JL somethingsomething 500/1)

I replaced my 1 JL with 2 Rockfords after it was stolen and was never happy with them. I then replaced the 2 Rockfords with a 10" Alpine Type-S in a custom enclosure that was made specifically for my trunks air space and all that crap, and I was amazed. Just like my buddies W6, it sounded incredible. I had that Type-S in 5 different cars, and sold it last year when I parted out my 1st Gen 4Runner.

Cliff notes- Don't always think bigger is better (in this context), I have never seen a $50 sub that was worth a dang, I hate Pioneer amps (my first amp was a 760w Pioneer, replaced with a 250w Alpine which was MUCH more powerful)

Anyway, I wish you the best in your search, I know there are some true audiophiles on here that will give great guidance.

 

[Hepar]

Are you going to try to run this off your stock head unit or do you have an aftermarket one?

 

[tbst]

Are you going to try to run this off your stock head unit or do you have an aftermarket one?

Sorry, I have an aftermarket HU. It is a Kenwood KDC-MP345U CD Receiver.

 

[tbst]

I am not an audiophile by any means, but in my experience with subs (back in high school when parents bought the "best" ones for me and my buddies) a well tuned 10" sub will sound better than a 12"

[...]

Cliff notes- Don't always think bigger is better (in this context), I have never seen a $50 sub that was worth a dang, I hate Pioneer amps (my first amp was a 760w Pioneer, replaced with a 250w Alpine which was MUCH more powerful)

Anyway, I wish you the best in your search, I know there are some true audiophiles on here that will give great guidance.

Haha. You are making me feel like I should only be doing this if I am in HS! I am just tired of crap sound and want a slight upgrade.

I always thought I had heard pioneer amps were crap, never had really been in the audio "scene" in HS or college, however the ones I have looked at have good reviews overall, especially for the $.

Maybe I should pass on a subwoofer until I am ready to spend more? Sigh.

 

[Brilliant]

I put infinity kappa separates & 5 channel amp in my car. A bit bright but thats alright. I bought it all from sonicelectronics and for the money, there wasnt any other brand comparable. Id go listen to a set of kappas for your pricerange. You'll want kappas, not the kappa reference (cheap) nor the kappa perfect (higher end).

If you arent wanting a large sub you may consider a single 5ch amp.

EDIT: I see you already have speakers. Nvm. 12"

 

[BrianSD_42]

***** How to build the BEST (non-sub) system for $500 ******


1. Buy this Alpine amp (MRP-F300), skip the Pioneer they suck.

You can get this Alpine amp for $140 + free shipping, NEW on EBAY here:
ALPINE MRP-F300 4-CHANNEL AMPLIFIER CAR STEREO AMP NEW | eBay

Here it is for sale on Amazon:
Amazon.com: MRP-F300 - Alpine 4-Channel 300 Watt V-Power Series Amplifier: Electronics

Specs:
4 Channel, 50W RMS x 4
2 Channel, 75W RMS x 2

Note: not ALL amplifiers are built equal; just because an AMP has XX watts RMS does not mean that it is better than another brand.

For consumer line audio you should really go with a top brand. IMO, Pioneer is not a top end brand but Alpine is.



2. Alpine-SPR-60C Type R Components (front)
8-110W RMS

$140 on EBAY with FULL return and paypal guarantee, compare to $270 on Crutchfield.

NEW ALPINE SPR-60C TYPE R 6.5" CAR AUDIO COMPONENT SPEAKER SYSTEM (PAIR) 6 1/2" (793276011039) | eBay



3. Alpine SPR-50 Type R 5.25" 2-way Speakers (rear)

$110 on EBAY with FULL return and PayPal guarantee.

ALPINE SPR-50 540W MAX 5-1/4" TYPE-R SERIES CAR COAXIAL 2 WAY AUDIO SPEAKERS | eBay



4. Sound Deadening Material or Dynamat for the front doors.

$99 | Dynamat 4 Door Sound Deadening Kit
Dynamat 10435 Xtreme Door Kit With four 12" x 36" sheets — covers two doors at Crutchfield.com



5. New 14G Speaker Wire (run it!)

$20 | 14G RCA Speaker Wire, 100 ft.

You will want to install new speaker wire if you follow my instructions. This is a must! The factory wiring sucks and is very small, like 20G or worse.

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-AH14100SN...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325028958&sr=1-1



**** Sub-woofer *****
Sorry kid but you are probably out of money now. Lets see what you have spent ...

$140 4 Channel Alpine AMP, 50 x 4 RMS
$140 Alpine Type-R 6.5" Components (front)
$110 Alpine Type-R 5.25" 2-way (rear)
$99 Dynamat 4 Door Kit
$20 New speaker wire
-----------------------
= $509 and you have a kick-ass system without a sub. Best Buy equivalent would be $850 parts + $300 install.

Note: The bass will actually sound pretty damn good for any non-rap/hip-hop music and even then it will sound good but not strong enough to vibrate the mirrors ect.



****** Additional Info and Opinion ******

This is just my opinion but it is ALWAYS better to build a good audio system by starting small with great components (eg. AMP & Speakers) then later add the nice amenities such as a 10" sub.

When you are ready you can pretty easily add another Amp and a 10" Type-R for $400.



My system
Alpine Deck w/ 4V pre-outs, tilt, awesomeness, endless features ect.
Alpine 4 Channel Amp 75x4 RMS
Infinity Kappa 6.5" Components (front)
Infinity Kappa 6x9" 3-way (rear, some cutting required)

MTX 6500D Amp
MTX Dual 12" Subs (soon to be replaced with Alpine)


How does it sound?

=> F#cking amazing. Sooooo much better than cheap speakers and a cheap amp.



:beer:

 

[BrianSD_42]

Brilliant

I put infinity kappa separates & 5 channel amp in my car. A bit bright but thats alright. I bought it all from sonicelectronics and for the money, there wasnt any other brand comparable. Id go listen to a set of kappas for your pricerange. You'll want kappas, not the kappa reference (cheap) nor the kappa perfect (higher end).

I have Kappas as well and they are great! I have no complaints.

You could easily swap out the Type-Rs for Kappas in the above post. Just be smart and use EBAY's authorized sellers to maximize your purchasing value. Those sellers have 6000+ perfect reviews. They are legit.

:vader:

 

[ryankmasuda]

Don't get a 12" sub, if you want to listen to Black Keys and Clapton type music you want tight bass. Get a 10" or two 10's. 12's will give you loose bass. Run all new speaker wire from the head unit to all the speakers/components. Make sure your head unit has alot of settings functions to dial in the highs, mids and lows along with the sub. I'm a fan of Alpine after owning everything from Clarion, Sony,Pioneer, JCV and Kenwood. Typically head units in the $300 range give you all the settings you could desire. The Kid just found a nice alpine unit that normally runs three something for $199 for factory refurbished.

I'm running 2, 10" JL Audio W3's and they hit hard and tight and BB King and Clapton sound awesome.

 

[tbst]

First, thank you for a comprehensive response.

To give you an idea I pieced together a beast computer (quad core AMD, four monitors, 10 GB ram, etc) for cheap, so that is what I thought I could do with a sound system....I am learning here.

1. Alpine Amp
I already have the Pioneer amp on the way. Maybe I should buy the Alpine and keep the Pioneer for a sub? And skip the other Pioneer amp. [Read down, you will see my lack of commitment.]

2. Alpine Components
Got some pretty good, from what I know, Polk components for Xmas. They are Polk db6501. Good? Kinda hard to return.

3. Alpine Speakers
Was gonna skip the back doors for now. A lot of stuff I have read says that the back doors are pointless? Obviously, you do not agree? Or you just wanted me to have well rounded sound all around?

My seats are down 98.7764% of the time.

4. Sound Deadening
I was planning on using Edead. Seems cheap, definitely cheaper than Dynamat, even doing two layers. $1 per ft^2.

5. Speaker Wire
I agree. Was planning on doing.

Comments/Questions:
The Alpine amp will do as good of a job as the Pioneer at 50 RMS than the Pioneer? Finding non bias opinions online are few and far between. I can bridge the Alpine to the front speakers, pending your affirmation of my plan to not run rear speakers.

I am not in HS, however because I am stuck with this Pioneer amp, should I hook up a relatively cheap sub in a box, that is "tight"?

 

[tbst]

Don't get a 12" sub, if you want to listen to Black Keys and Clapton type music you want tight bass. Get a 10" or two 10's. 12's will give you loose bass.

Good to know. Reading online and putting in "tight bass" corresponds.

Run all new speaker wire from the head unit to all the speakers/components.

That's my plan.

Make sure your head unit has alot of settings functions to dial in the highs, mids and lows along with the sub. I'm a fan of Alpine after owning everything from Clarion, Sony,Pioneer, JCV and Kenwood. Typically head units in the $300 range give you all the settings you could desire.

Kinda stuck with the Kenwood now.

All input is good. Thank you!

 

[Nelsonmd]

First, thank you for a comprehensive response.

To give you an idea I pieced together a beast computer (quad core AMD, four monitors, 10 GB ram, etc) for cheap, so that is what I thought I could do with a sound system....I am learning here.

1. Alpine Amp
I already have the Pioneer amp on the way. Maybe I should buy the Alpine and keep the Pioneer for a sub? And skip the other Pioneer amp. [Read down, you will see my lack of commitment.]

2. Alpine Components
Got some pretty good, from what I know, Polk components for Xmas. They are Polk db6501. Good? Kinda hard to return.

3. Alpine Speakers
Was gonna skip the back doors for now. A lot of stuff I have read says that the back doors are pointless? Obviously, you do not agree? Or you just wanted me to have well rounded sound all around?

My seats are down 98.7764% of the time.

4. Sound Deadening
I was planning on using Edead. Seems cheap, definitely cheaper than Dynamat, even doing two layers. $1 per ft^2.

5. Speaker Wire
I agree. Was planning on doing.

Comments/Questions:
The Alpine amp will do as good of a job as the Pioneer at 50 RMS than the Pioneer? Finding non bias opinions online are few and far between. I can bridge the Alpine to the front speakers, pending your affirmation of my plan to not run rear speakers.

I am not in HS, however because I am stuck with this Pioneer amp, should I hook up a relatively cheap sub in a box, that is "tight"?

The components you have are fine. Pioneer is fine, I have been very satisfied with my pioneer products. I think you should start with what you have on order, use the amp for the speakers, then decide after that how badly you want a sub.

I think what you have on order will sound great.

 

[tbst]

The components you have are fine. Pioneer is fine, I have been very satisfied with my pioneer products. I think you should start with what you have on order, use the amp for the speakers, then decide after that how badly you want a sub.

I think what you have on order will sound great.

When I posted this I was actually going to PM you. I was going back into some of the audio archives and noticed that you were working on a sound system at one point.

Good to hear some + about pioneer. Feels crappy when you order something and then get the impression what you ordered was crap.

Did you end up adding a sub? Or just components?

 

[BrianSD_42]

The Alpine amp will do as good of a job as the Pioneer at 50 RMS than the Pioneer? Finding non bias opinions online are few and far between. I can bridge the Alpine to the front speakers, pending your affirmation of my plan to not run rear speakers

First off, I am sure the Pioneer will sound fine but it will not sound the same as the Alpine + Kappas. I suggested EBAY because you can cut out a lot of the price and still get brand new equipment.

Alpine vs. Pioneer. Well it is just a matter of personal preference and sound quality, there are some good Pioneer amplifiers out there. Unfortunately, the specific Pioneer you mentioned is a two-channel amplifier and I believe it is designed mainly for cheap sub-woofers.

Here are the specs:
Pioneer GM-5400T 2-channel car amplifier — 125 watts RMS x 2 at Crutchfield.com

After reading the specs, I don't think it can support 4 speakers unless you bridge the F+R together. If you do that you will have this:

Two-Channel: 190 watts x 2 at 2-ohms with > 1% THD+N

That means 85 W RMS per speaker front and rear. The problem is that you are not going to be running the same speakers in the front and rear so either the front or rear will sound louder.

In fact that amp would be putting out more wattage than my current setup. I am only running 75W RMS x 4 + Infinity Kappas & YES my system with lower wattage will sound better. More watts != better in every case. Sorry but you have to get the right amp for the right application.

That amplifier is designed for sub-woofers, and low powered ones at that. If you went with a 4-channel amp instead, I think the sound quality would be much better since 4-channel amps are designed for powering door speakers and not subs.


*** Signal to noise ratio ***

Also there is signal to noise ratio, aka SN. This Pioneer has S/N ratio of 75 db, the Alpine has 80 db. The difference looks small on paper but a 5 db change is quite significant.

A change in power ratio by a factor of 10 is a 10 dB change. A change in power ratio by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change. More precisely, the factor is 103/10, or 1.9953, about 0.24% different from exactly 2.

Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not a strong audio tech but I believe there is a pretty good correlation between higher db signal-to-noise specs and clearer audio at high level. In short, how does it sound at 2/3 volume.
​

Edit: reading my post, I do sound like an Alpine cheerleader. I think it is because I have just been so impressed with their Amps. I have never had their speakers but everyone says great things. I have owned many car amps: MTX, Infinity digital, Sony Explode, Kenwood & now Alpine. The Alpine has the cleanest and best tuned default 'out of the box' sound of the group.

I really suggest getting a 4-channel amp but I think you will find that Pioneer to be a good beginner setup.

:bat:

 

[zgensler31]

Brilliant

I have Kappas as well and they are great! I have no complaints.

You could easily swap out the Type-Rs for Kappas in the above post. Just be smart and use EBAY's authorized sellers to maximize your purchasing value. Those sellers have 6000+ perfect reviews. They are legit.

:vader:

Does anyone have a link to these kappas. Thinking about maybe getting some soon.

 

[tbst]

Alpine vs. Pioneer. Well it is just a matter of personal preference and sound quality. The Pioneer you mentioned is a two-channel amplifier, I believe it is designed mainly for cheap sub-woofers.

That is the impression I got after reading the reviews. :bash:

After reading the specs, I don't think it can support 4 speakers unless you bridge the F+R together. If you do that you will have this:

Two-Channel: 125 watts x 2 at 4-ohms with 1% THD+N

That means 62.5 W RMS per speaker front and rear. The problem is that you are not going to be running the same speakers in the front and rear so either the front or rear will sound louder.

If you went with a 4-channel amp instead, I think the sound quality would be much better since 4-channel amps are designed for powering door speakers and not subs.

I agree. I am going to get a four channel amp. The Alpine you showed will be good, I have previously read reviews on it before I cheaped out. It is worth the 40 more, in the long run.

Also there is signal to noise ratio, aka SN. This Pioneer has S/N ratio of 75 db, the Alpine has 80 db. It is a small difference but I can tell you I have had several amps and the Alpines have had the lowest amount of static / whine of all.

I have read that the SN is really important.

Basically, I suggest getting a 4-channel amp but I think you will find the Pioneer to be a good beginner setup.

I always try and do things middle of the road. To clean this up, I think I will go with the Alpine amp, buy some good 2 ways in the back.

Since I am stuck with the ****ty Pioneer amp, what do you think about building a box for a 10" Kicker? Worth it or no? (I have amazon store credit, so it is like the money never existed.)

I really do appreciate the insight.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Non-authorized dealer, same speakers, no instant swap warranty

6.5" Component Kappas on EBAY $140
INFINITY KAPPA 60.9CS 6.5" 270W Car Component Speakers | eBay


Crutchfield has them for $240 | w/ 2 year instant replacement warranty
Infinity Kappa 60.9cs 6-3/4" component speaker system For 6-1/2" and 6-3/4" openings at Crutchfield.com

 

[BrianSD_42]

Since I am stuck with the ****ty Pioneer amp, what do you think about building a box for a 10" Kicker? Worth it or no? (I have amazon store credit, so it is like the money never existed.)

You might want to use the Pioneer for a single 10" sub. I am sure it would power that pretty well and most people have a harder time hearing the difference in subwoofer amps (low end vs. middle grade ect).

With regards to the rear doors, you probably don't need to add those speakers right away. Why not wait until down the road but at least have a 4-channel amp so when you add them you can adjust the 'levels' on front and rear.

I have been throwing my earned cash away on car stereos since I was a kid. Every few years I want to upgrade just to change things up.

Good luck man!

 

[A.Wilson013]

I had the MRP-F300 in my 1st Gen. I highly recommend the amp. I sold it to user "The Kid" ask him what he thinks about it.

 

[that$pit]

Agree with the 1 10 vs 2 12s I went from two punch 12s to one kicker 10. The ten is punchier, doesn't move as much air, but I am a bit of an audiophile.
My .02