What other vehicles have as good of a 4WD system as the 4th Gen T4R?

[CAN-03runner]

Since when? Power is still being applied to the front wheels, just not a 50/50 split. AWD has no power unless traction is lost, right?

Since circa 2003!

 

[Zach.K]

Since when? Power is still being applied to the front wheels, just not a 50/50 split. AWD has no power unless traction is lost, right?

Depends on the torsen center diff, but most of the time you will have a 2:1 ratio of the higher power from front to rear. Unless you mod it to be a higher ratio like say 4:1 for more of a RWD feel but with AWD handling.

 

[blakjack23]

I would agree with all of this except the part where you say all seasons have horrid snow grip and should never be used in snow. No doubt snow tires are better than all seasons, but in MN we have snow 4-5 months out of the year and I bet 95% of the people run all seasons and do just fine. All seasons aren't THAT bad in the snow. But on the other hand, I had a set of rims with Blizzaks on them for my BMW in the winter and those thing were pretty great!

Snow tires are awesome, but all seasons will get you by just fine IMO.

The average person up here just doesn't want to spend 1000-2000 on an extra set of rims and tires to run in the winter.

So much misinformation in this thread. I feel the need to clear this all up.

Snow traction comes down to these 4 things in this order:

1. Good tires: You need snow tires for snow grip, an all season is a compromise and will never be as good. Some all seasons have reasonable to good snow grip, but the majority have horrid snow grip and should never ever be used in snow. Running summer tires is just asking for an early death.

2. Limited slip differentials: A car with front, rear and center limited slip differentials always makes the best snow car, there's no question about it. Manually locked differentials don't work as well in snow as they prohibit slip during turns which can cause weird handling traits. E-LSDs which is really just the braking system acting on individual slipping wheels is also a compromise and are not as good as a limited slip as they cannot keep up the momentum, although it's still better than nothing. Another interesting note, a locked center differential vehicle (like a 4wd truck) tends to want to plow straight when given power during a turn on snow, which is also not as optimal.

3. Less weight: Yes, a car that weighs less can corner better and stop faster than a heavy car in snow, it's just the laws of momentum.

4. Clearance: If there isn't much snow this doesn't matter, but if you're going through deep stuff you will need clearance.

As for vehicles that have the best of this, off the top of my head are the Subaru STI, and 05+ Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. They are the only cars with awd, 3 LSDs stock, and are lightweight. All other AWD and 4wd vehicles have open diffs at one end or both, or use haldex/clutch systems which make them 2wd normally and engage the other 2 wheels when slip occurs.

As for tires to buy, do your homework at tirerack, consumer reports or around on forums. Doing your research pays off.

 

[Zach.K]

I would agree with all of this except the part where you say all seasons have horrid snow grip and should never be used in snow. No doubt snow tires are better than all seasons, but in MN we have snow 4-5 months out of the year and I bet 95% of the people run all seasons and do just fine. All seasons aren't THAT bad in the snow. But on the other hand, I had a set of rims with Blizzaks on them for my BMW in the winter and those thing were pretty great!

Snow tires are awesome, but all seasons will get you by just fine IMO.

The average person up here just doesn't want to spend 1000-2000 on an extra set of rims and tires to run in the winter.

What you have to realize about the A\S tires is the problem is not the snow, its the temps. Most aren't rated for temps below X degrees which makes them worse on snow\ice and will lead to issues especially for emergency maneuvering.

 

[blakjack23]

What you have to realize about the A\S tires is the problem is not the snow, its the temps. Most aren't rated for temps below X degrees which makes them worse on snow\ice and will lead to issues especially for emergency maneuvering.

With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you. I've been driving in snow every year for 20 years, in temps down to 30 BELOW zero and I've never had a problems with emergency maneuvering with AS tires. Driving at the speed conditions allow is much more important than having AS or snow tires on. My 4Runner with Cooper HTP's rips through snow at -20.

While I agree AS tires perform better in warmer weather, like most tires, but they perform just fine in cold weather.

 

[Zach.K]

With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you. I've been driving in snow every year for 20 years, in temps down to 30 BELOW zero and I've never had a problems with emergency maneuvering with AS tires. Driving at the speed conditions allow is much more important than having AS or snow tires on. My 4Runner with Cooper HTP's rips through snow at -20.

While I agree AS tires perform better in warmer weather, like most tires, but they perform just fine in cold weather.

Well heres the problem with you viewpoint, You are not disagreeing with me, your disagreeing with the Tire Manufactures themselves. They are the ones choosing the rubber compounds that go into the tires, and designing the tread patter that go on them. This has been tested over and over, Winter tires will always out perform A\S and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Yes you may have been fine for the past X years driving. There will come a time, (I'm willing to bet its Already Happened) that you have had an "incident" that will make you wish you had winter tires on.

Here is just one example, but please go search winter vs A\S on youtube.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...testing-showdown-winter-vs-all-season#slide-1

Here is a great video in a controlled environment, now amplify it to an emergency situation and thats just scary. Theres no reason not to be better safe then just "hope its ok because its worked in the past"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI

 

[blakjack23]

Actually reread what I wrote. I never have or will say AS are better than winter tires in winter conditions. Thats just plain stupid if someone believes that. On the contrary I said winter tires are awesome and AS do just fine in the winter. As proven by hundreds of thousands of people who do it every winter.

Your popular mechanics even said AS performed admirably in their winter tests. So I stand by my past viewpoint, Winter tires are awesome, AS do just fine.

Can All-Season Tires Really Handle the Snow? - Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires - Popular Mechanics

And the next performance car I have that has summer tires will also have a set of winters tires in my garage. Because as you southerners just found out, summer tires on snow/ice is a 100% disaster.

I am actually a proponant of having summer and winter tires, which is why I had them for my BMW before. Really you are only adding the cost of extra rims since the summer and winter set will last you as long as two AS sets.

 

[CAN-03runner]

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I'm sure there are countless other threads on A/S vs Winter tires around here somewhere.

Back to the topic... I don't think you will find many vehicles around with the same verastility as the 4th gen 4Runner.

Especially the V6 = 2Hi, 4Hi-AWD, 4lo-AWD, 4Hi Locked 4x4, 4Lo Locked 4x4

or a V8 = 4Hi-AWD, 4lo-AWD, 4Hi Locked 4x4, 4Lo Locked 4x4

For the purposes to this description, "AWD" = a system that can power front and rear axles on wet or "DRY" pavement, all day, all the time, going straight or taking curves at whatever speed. For the 4th Gen 4Runner that is what 4Hi and 4Lo are. AWD. It has a center differential. You can leave it on 4hi all day long, as long as you want, wet or dry, and turn and turn and turn and take curves at speed. And not nit picking intelliget AWD, active AWD, quattro, xdrive, real time, full time, marketing mumbo jumbo.


This is what makes the 4runner so special. Lock the center and you are 4x4 50-50 split, and you become like anyother 4x4 with just a transfercase no center diff.

What else gives you this, Sequoia, FJ Cruiser Manual Transmission, Land Cruisers, Lexus GX/LX, (G500, some variants of grand cherokee, maybe Ford Explorer...but I don't know these well enough to say that they will allow it in 4Lo) Some other SUVs say a hyudai santa fe....has a 4x4 lock option...but it deactivates after a certain speed.

I love my 4th Gen. I love its VSC, I love its Trac, I love its A-trac.

 

[drewm]

I would agree with all of this except the part where you say all seasons have horrid snow grip and should never be used in snow. No doubt snow tires are better than all seasons, but in MN we have snow 4-5 months out of the year and I bet 95% of the people run all seasons and do just fine. All seasons aren't THAT bad in the snow. But on the other hand, I had a set of rims with Blizzaks on them for my BMW in the winter and those thing were pretty great!

Snow tires are awesome, but all seasons will get you by just fine IMO.

The average person up here just doesn't want to spend 1000-2000 on an extra set of rims and tires to run in the winter.

Actually if you reread what I wrote, I stated "Some all seasons have reasonable to good snow grip, but the majority have horrid snow grip and should never ever be used in snow"

I did say "some" all seasons have good snow grip, you just need to be very very careful selecting them. The average all season will most likely put you in a ditch, especially most OEM all season tires. Reading reviews and surveys on tirerack will confirm that.

 

[blakjack23]

You're right, you didn't say all AS tires are horrid. And while I'll agree some AS are better than others, my opinion based on experience is that the majority are adequate for winter driving (even in MN) and are not horrid. Sure, you drive a little slower and a little more cautious than you would with snow tires, but everyone up here does just fine. I don't agree the average snow tire will most likely put you in a ditch. As of right now I honestly don't know a single person who has snow tires on their vehicle. I also don't know anyone who has went into a ditch in the least the last ten years.

But either way, that's just my opinion and everyone has their own. There's no reason everyone has to agree on everything. We agree snow tires are the best so we can stick with that

I was surprised by this fact about replacement-tire sales from Popular Mechanics though. I wouldn't have guessed the percent of replacement tires being AS was that high.

"These days nearly all vehicles sold in the United States are fitted with all-season tires from the factory, and 97.5 percent of replacement-tire sales are the same"

Do most people in climates without snow get AS tires when they need replacements? I would have guessed summer tires would be more popular replacements in warmer climates.

 

[blakjack23]

Thanks, yours as well as the other posts here were what I was really hoping to hear.....that the 4runner drive options are kind of in a league of their own and are as good as Toyota/Lexus' upper class vehicles.

I keep thinking of jumping into a 5th Gen, but the lack of the 2WD/4H (unlocked) combo makes me want to keep my '07. If I do get a 5th it will have to be a Limited though. I could do without the 2WD more than I could without the 4H unlocked.

I'm sure there are countless other threads on A/S vs Winter tires around here somewhere.

Back to the topic... I don't think you will find many vehicles around with the same verastility as the 4th gen 4Runner.

Especially the V6 = 2Hi, 4Hi-AWD, 4lo-AWD, 4Hi Locked 4x4, 4Lo Locked 4x4

or a V8 = 4Hi-AWD, 4lo-AWD, 4Hi Locked 4x4, 4Lo Locker 4x4

For the purposes to this description, "AWD" = a system that can power front and rear axles on wet or "DRY" pavement, all day, all the time, going straight or taking curves at whatever speed. For the 4th Gen 4Runner that is what 4Hi and 4Lo are. AWD. It has a center differential. You can leave it on 4hi all day long, as long as you want, wet or dry, and turn and turn and turn and take curves at speed. And not nit picking intelliget AWD, active AWD, quattro, xdrive, real time, full time, marketing mumbo jumbo.


This is what makes the 4runner so special. Lock the center and you are 4x4 50-50 split, and you become like anyother 4x4 with just a transfercase no center diff.

What else gives you this, Sequoia, FJ Cruiser Manual Transmission, Land Cruisers, Lexus GX/LX, (G500, some variants of grand cherokee, maybe Ford Explorer...but I don't know these well enough to say that they will allow it in 4Lo) Some other SUVs say a hyudai santa fe....has a 4x4 lock option...but it deactivates after a certain speed.

I love my 4th Gen. I love its VSC, I love its Trac, I love its A-trac.

 

[lj4r]

have you done front control arm bushings yet? haha.

yes, already done, along with the transmission sleeve, the suspension air compressor, other than that, it has been pretty solid. Phil

 

[drewm]

Another thing I want to add to this thread is. 4wd may help get you going, but will not help you stop better in the snow. All cars have 4 wheel brakes. Better tires are the only thing that will help with that.

 

[drewm]

You're right, you didn't say all AS tires are horrid. And while I'll agree some AS are better than others, my opinion based on experience is that the majority are adequate for winter driving (even in MN) and are not horrid. Sure, you drive a little slower and a little more cautious than you would with snow tires, but everyone up here does just fine. I don't agree the average snow tire will most likely put you in a ditch. As of right now I honestly don't know a single person who has snow tires on their vehicle. I also don't know anyone who has went into a ditch in the least the last ten years.

But either way, that's just my opinion and everyone has their own. There's no reason everyone has to agree on everything. We agree snow tires are the best so we can stick with that

I was surprised by this fact about replacement-tire sales from Popular Mechanics though. I wouldn't have guessed the percent of replacement tires being AS was that high.

"These days nearly all vehicles sold in the United States are fitted with all-season tires from the factory, and 97.5 percent of replacement-tire sales are the same"

Do most people in climates without snow get AS tires when they need replacements? I would have guessed summer tires would be more popular replacements in warmer climates.

Even out here in California, people tend to go with touring tires for their quietness and longevity which are nearly almost all "all season" It's only really the higher performance cars that go for the summer tread, and in general performance cars have been going the way of the dodo lately.

 

[YotaDriver]

Here's a vehicle that probably has a better drivetrain than the 4th gen 4Runner (although for $600,000 it ought to...):

2014 Mercedes-Benz G63 AMG 6x6 First Drive - Motor Trend

Almost 600 foot pounds of torque, five differentials, and six different drive combinations.

 

[drewm]

Here's a vehicle that probably has a better drivetrain than the 4th gen 4Runner (although for $600,000 it ought to...):

2014 Mercedes-Benz G63 AMG 6x6 First Drive - Motor Trend

Almost 600 foot pounds of torque, five differentials, and six different drive combinations.

Arctic Trucks has actually been building 6x6s for a lot longer than they have:
6X6 < Toyota < Brands < Arctic Trucks

 

[Stuck CAPS]

Since circa 2003!

Thanks for that.. It's still applying power to front diff at all times in 4WD, though.

Depends on the torsen center diff, but most of the time you will have a 2:1 ratio of the higher power from front to rear. Unless you mod it to be a higher ratio like say 4:1 for more of a RWD feel but with AWD handling.

But that's still applying power, I was under the assumption that for AWD, a vehicle didn't apply power to the front unless it lost traction.

 

[mikebontoft]

have you done front control arm bushings yet? haha.

yes, already done, along with the transmission sleeve, the suspension air compressor, other than that, it has been pretty solid. Phil

hah my next question was going to be if you've replaced the air ride compressor. watch out for the front struts too... they like to leak just as bad.

 

[28.]

Thanks for that.. It's still applying power to front diff at all times in 4WD, though.



But that's still applying power, I was under the assumption that for AWD, a vehicle didn't apply power to the front unless it lost traction.

Actually it can go either way.. Hondas' RT4WD awd system actually runs on FWD until it senses slippage in the rear wheels, then applies power to the rear wheels as well.. Works really well actually.

 

[Stuck CAPS]

Actually it can go either way.. Hondas' RT4WD awd system actually runs on FWD until it senses slippage in the rear wheels, then applies power to the rear wheels as well.. Works really well actually.

I guess I conveyed my point poorly. I didn't mean the FWD vs RWD, but the slippage system. Because power is always still in the front AND rear, it's 4WD, right?