Who won the debate

Who won tonights debate

  • Kerry

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • BUSH

    Votes: 21 53.8%
  • TIE

    Votes: 5 12.8%

  • Total voters
    39
Some lawsuits are plain out wrong and that is what I am concerned with.

I agree. And they don't stop at medical malpractice suits. Take the McDonald's Hot Coffee lawsuit. Or the myriad "mold" in houses lawsuits, which plague the constuction industry (in which I work as a structural engineer).

It is a fact that most mold situations are a direct result of homeowners rearranging their yards and changing the grading, or adding flowing beds adjacent to the foundation, such that water no longer drains away from the house.

But more laws (tort reform) is not the answer. The answer is to hold plaintiffs responsible for their own actions, and for judges to refuse to hear these cases, and for juries to refuse awards to obviously stupid people.

One big problem I see is the quality of jurors. Most professionals and business owners can't afford the lost time of jury duty, and many are able to get out of jury duty. So, who serves on juries? Mostly the unemployed, folks on welfare, and government employees...and many of these already have an ingrained sense of entitlement. (No offense to any of our friends out there who are unemployed, on welfare, or hold government jobs...unless, of course, you believe you're entitled to them...)

--Dan
 
dancojgl said:
I agree. And they don't stop at medical malpractice suits. Take the McDonald's Hot Coffee lawsuit. Or the myriad "mold" in houses lawsuits, which plague the constuction industry (in which I work as a structural engineer).

It is a fact that most mold situations are a direct result of homeowners rearranging their yards and changing the grading, or adding flowing beds adjacent to the foundation, such that water no longer drains away from the house.

But more laws (tort reform) is not the answer. The answer is to hold plaintiffs responsible for their own actions, and for judges to refuse to hear these cases, and for juries to refuse awards to obviously stupid people.

One big problem I see is the quality of jurors. Most professionals and business owners can't afford the lost time of jury duty, and many are able to get out of jury duty. So, who serves on juries? Mostly the unemployed, folks on welfare, and government employees...and many of these already have an ingrained sense of entitlement. (No offense to any of our friends out there who are unemployed, on welfare, or hold government jobs...unless, of course, you believe you're entitled to them...)

--Dan

Very well said. Some juries just don't see when awards should be given and when they shouldn't. There are definitely many other frivolous lawsuits than the medical ones. I was just referring to the ones addressed on the debate last night.
 
dancojgl said:
If you've ever known anyone with major medical problems, you would see that doctors are often their own worst enemy (with the exception of Thai, of course :) ). They actually make a lot of mistakes, including life-threatening ones. So they are, in no small part, partly responsible for the high costs of their malpractice insurance costs.

You're joking, right?! We are OFTEN our own worst enemy?? We make A LOT of mistakes??!! Geez.

Many patients don't understand medicine...most THINK that they are doctors from their medical knowledge that they learn over the internet or from idiotic shows like, "E.R.". Little knowledge hurts sometimes.

Mistakes?? Yes, we all make mistakes...we're only human. No matter how much you study or how much you practice, there are times when you make a mistake. We always try to avoid making crucial mistakes. Do we make A LOT of mistakes?? I doubt it. If you think that we do, then YOU should become a doctor to show us what we are doing wrong.

I assume that you know someone who had a bad experience in the hospital. I am sincerely sorry about it. But, that does not mean that doctors make A LOT of mistakes or that we are part of the healthcare problem. That's a load of crap to be totally honest.

Medicine is at the frontier of human knowledge. And as such, it cannot be an exact science. Medical studies dictate how we practice in many cases (aka, evidence-based medicine, which i subscribe to). Sometimes, one study will show one thing, while later, another study show us the opposite way of doing things. For example, hormone replacement therapy (HRT) was shown to be beneficial in so many ways 10 years ago. All post-menopausal women should be on it. However, as you may have heard on the news recently, HRT is now a bad thing in most cases.

BTW, i suggest that you read more about healthcare costs and malpractice insurance. Are all OB/GYNs or surgeons bad?? With your statements, they must be all bad (or make a ton of mistakes)because their malpractice is so damn high. In fact, most (if not all) Miami OB/GYN's cannot afford malpractice! Hospitals have been known to close down due to lack of doctor support. Who pays the most for this?? Who gets hurt by this?? YOU DO.

My malpractice is also high because i work in the ICU. Does that mean that I (or my colleagues) make a lot of mistakes?? Or does that mean that people have a tendency to sue me because i see sicker people (thus, worst outcomes are seen more often)?? Or the image that i have the deepest pocket?? (i don't) Or that my malpractice insurance has the deepest pocket?? (unfortunately, this is the case.) You see...the sicker people you treat, the higher the malpractice coverage (and annual bill). So, who do people sue first when a bad outcome occurs?? Actually, who do the lawyers aim first...ME.

So, why is it in my interest to try and cut healthcare cost by not practicing CYA-medicine?? Why shouldn't i order 4-5 CAT scans when one is enough?? Or how about ordering blood test as often as possible?? Or keep my patients in the ICU for 100000 years?? IT IS IN MY BEST INTEREST TO DO SO, right?? You get my point. Most doctors do this because of fear of frivolous lawsuits against them.

So, NO, DOCTORS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HEALTHCARE COST RISING.
 
Just saw the opening skit for Saturday Night Live and they had a spoof on the second debate. Pretty funny and pretty close to the truth. Thai, it might be on in Texas in a couple hours. It is good, if you don't mind laughing about such a serious subject.
 
I saw it too. It was funny and pretty accurate. That guy who plays Bush looks nothing like him and sounds nothing like him.
 
I can't wait for the election to be over. Every board I go to it seems there are more posts on politics than 4Runners or 4wheeling :)

Most people are set in their opinions and I dont believe it will change, so arguing most of the time is just a waste of time.

The one thing I appreciate on this board and yotatech is that people tend to civil about it. It is more of a agree to to disagree, which is great.

Now the sopabox again :)

The one thing however is that everbody in the US blames lawyers for health costs, but I think it is untrue. Various countries in Europe, Asia and Africa are complaining that the cost of healthcare has gone through the roof in the last decade or so. ANd in many of those countries your ass will be kicked out of court with a malpractice case. So what is going on in healthcare, many of my friends are doctors they seem to blame pharmacutical companies and administrations (HMOs, hospitals, etc). At some point somebody will have to address this problem, cause a lot of pharmaceutical companies are no longer rated 5 star in terms of stock. So the docs are not going crazy (apart from Thai :) he has to pay for his G ;) ), the phar companies are not printing money, where is the money going because costs worldwide i getting out of control??
 
Was watching the Micahel Moore, movie and started getting curious about a few things. Did my own research on the stuff I was curious about. For example did not know that on 9/11-9/13 over 150 individuals were flown out of this country-several of them were from the Bin Landen family. This is probably already known but that seems weird to me. Has anybody else watched this? (yes I know most of it is entertainment, and edited to make Bush look bad, thats why I did my own research)
 
Thai said:
You're joking, right?! We are OFTEN our own worst enemy?? We make A LOT of mistakes??!! Geez.

Many patients don't understand medicine...most THINK that they are doctors from their medical knowledge that they learn over the internet or from idiotic shows like, "E.R.". Little knowledge hurts sometimes.

Mistakes?? Yes, we all make mistakes...we're only human. No matter how much you study or how much you practice, there are times when you make a mistake. We always try to avoid making crucial mistakes. Do we make A LOT of mistakes?? I doubt it. If you think that we do, then YOU should become a doctor to show us what we are doing wrong.

I assume that you know someone who had a bad experience in the hospital. I am sincerely sorry about it. But, that does not mean that doctors make A LOT of mistakes or that we are part of the healthcare problem. That's a load of crap to be totally honest.

Medicine is at the frontier of human knowledge. And as such, it cannot be an exact science. Medical studies dictate how we practice in many cases (aka, evidence-based medicine, which i subscribe to). Sometimes, one study will show one thing, while later, another study show us the opposite way of doing things. For example, hormone replacement therapy (HRT) was shown to be beneficial in so many ways 10 years ago. All post-menopausal women should be on it. However, as you may have heard on the news recently, HRT is now a bad thing in most cases.

BTW, i suggest that you read more about healthcare costs and malpractice insurance. Are all OB/GYNs or surgeons bad?? With your statements, they must be all bad (or make a ton of mistakes)because their malpractice is so damn high. In fact, most (if not all) Miami OB/GYN's cannot afford malpractice! Hospitals have been known to close down due to lack of doctor support. Who pays the most for this?? Who gets hurt by this?? YOU DO.

My malpractice is also high because i work in the ICU. Does that mean that I (or my colleagues) make a lot of mistakes?? Or does that mean that people have a tendency to sue me because i see sicker people (thus, worst outcomes are seen more often)?? Or the image that i have the deepest pocket?? (i don't) Or that my malpractice insurance has the deepest pocket?? (unfortunately, this is the case.) You see...the sicker people you treat, the higher the malpractice coverage (and annual bill). So, who do people sue first when a bad outcome occurs?? Actually, who do the lawyers aim first...ME.

So, why is it in my interest to try and cut healthcare cost by not practicing CYA-medicine?? Why shouldn't i order 4-5 CAT scans when one is enough?? Or how about ordering blood test as often as possible?? Or keep my patients in the ICU for 100000 years?? IT IS IN MY BEST INTEREST TO DO SO, right?? You get my point. Most doctors do this because of fear of frivolous lawsuits against them.

So, NO, DOCTORS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HEALTHCARE COST RISING.

Thai, I hear you. Hate to say it my brother-in-law is part of the problem. My sister died a few months ago from cancer, my idiot brother-in-law had crap insurance and is now suing the hospital and the doctors. He is suing the hospital because they called and wanted him to pay the bill and he "thinks" they didn't give my sister the amount of care that they should have. He is suing the doctors because she died. He is a nut case and has alway been a nut case but he is a big reason why this countries health care system is so screwed up.
 
Pitbull said:
Thai, I hear you. Hate to say it my brother-in-law is part of the problem. My sister died a few months ago from cancer, my idiot brother-in-law had crap insurance and is now suing the hospital and the doctors. He is suing the hospital because they called and wanted him to pay the bill and he "thinks" they didn't give my sister the amount of care that they should have. He is suing the doctors because she died. He is a nut case and has alway been a nut case but he is a big reason why this countries health care system is so screwed up.

I am sorry to hear about your sister.

That's another point...some health insurance do screw patients because they are crooks or that these small insurance plans do not have enough $$ to pay for the ever increasing health care costs.

Again, i am sorry to hear about your sister.

Thai.
 
Biff said:
Was watching the Micahel Moore, movie and started getting curious about a few things. Did my own research on the stuff I was curious about. For example did not know that on 9/11-9/13 over 150 individuals were flown out of this country-several of them were from the Bin Landen family. This is probably already known but that seems weird to me. Has anybody else watched this? (yes I know most of it is entertainment, and edited to make Bush look bad, thats why I did my own research)
I have not seen M. Moore's 9/11, but I watch the History channel at lot with my Son and it is true members of the Bin Laden family were flown out for fear of reprisals from the general public. Understand that family is a huge powerful family in Saudi Arabia and may not agree with Bin Laden. Also the order to fly out the family did not come from Bush, but from Richard Clarke.

Also on the History channel it showed we had evidence that Bin Laden was found but the Administration did not attack because their was evidence a Prince of Untied Arab Emirantes was at his camp. I guess M. Moore did not put that in his film since it was under Clinton's Administration.
 
Good articles, I figured some of the stuff in the movie wouldn't be completely accurate. Just like everything in this election you have to research it yourself if not you'll just be another panzy following without being informed.
 
I forgot one more point about lawsuits and doctors. If you (the doctor) are sued by a patient, then it goes on your permanent record...NO MATTER IF THE CASE GETS THROWN OUT OF COURT OR NOT. It's like committing a felony. Therefore, everytime that you apply to another job, you have to give a written statement of why you were sued and what happened.

Many of the frivolous lawsuits are done to get some money. That is, most medical insurance companies are not willing to go to court against a claim (too much $$$$)...they settle it outside the court (aka cut their losses). So, even if it's a questionable lawsuit, the lawyer wins because most of the time, the malpractice insurance will settle.

It's not easy being a doctor these days...it's not because it's a hard profession, but because of all this BS that you have to deal with. Paranoia is a good term to describe the way doctors practice these days.
 
Another thought that just came to my mind. Another reason that the doctors are the main targets of frivolous lawsuits is that they do not have the power to counter sue. If the doctor was able to sue the patient for lost wages, maybe it would give the people who feel they can make easy money a second thought. This is another reason why doctors are targets.
 
This thing is going to come down to the wire. Hopefully we don't have another Florida on our hands.
 
MickeyMouse said:
Bad news on Florida Dade County area where the problem was last time, they put in new touch screen voting booths and already had a problem with them this year:

Touch-Screen Vote Records Lost in Florida

... here we go again.

Oh no hope we dont have a mess again in Florida or any other state. I think this time real hell will be raised if they dont get it right.

Does anybody have a comparison of number of voters registered this time vs 2000? I would assume their will be a lot more people turning up this time. Given the low attendance in 2000 and all the politics going on now.
 

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