I just read this interesting article on ethanol, and I noticed that some of the 2007 GM trucks can run on E85 (85% ethanol), but there are no Toyotas that are E85 capable. I know it's not as effecient as gasoline, but if it costs less and reduces our dependence of foreign oil, I'm all for that.
Will new Toyotas be able to run on ethanol?
- Thread starter Otto
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Jeff Kleb
New member
Re: Ethanol
I am sure that ethanol (grain alcohol) will play a role in our future energy needs, and has already been used in some places. You already know it as 'gasohol' - essentially E10 - and it has been in use since the 1970s.
Running on pure alcohol would be possible with modern engines and there would certainly be no more octane/detonation problems; but ethanol is very corrosive to fuel lines and has some type of deficiency (compared to unleaded gasoline) with regard to BTUs that it puts out. Methinks some re-tooling would have to be done, but I don't know what other problems it could pose.
Some Ford cars and light trucks have been calibrated to run on M85 (85% methanol - wood alcohol) for several years, but I don't know how they would fare on ethanol.
As for the cost, I suppose it might be "cheaper" because of subsidies and the lack of taxes -- although that is likely to change if it grows in popularity and Congress gets involved.
:bash:
It sure would be nice if we in the USA could tell the OPECkers to go 'pound sand' after we become self-reliant with regard to our energy needs.
:awais:
Otto said:
I am sure that ethanol (grain alcohol) will play a role in our future energy needs, and has already been used in some places. You already know it as 'gasohol' - essentially E10 - and it has been in use since the 1970s.
Running on pure alcohol would be possible with modern engines and there would certainly be no more octane/detonation problems; but ethanol is very corrosive to fuel lines and has some type of deficiency (compared to unleaded gasoline) with regard to BTUs that it puts out. Methinks some re-tooling would have to be done, but I don't know what other problems it could pose.
Some Ford cars and light trucks have been calibrated to run on M85 (85% methanol - wood alcohol) for several years, but I don't know how they would fare on ethanol.
As for the cost, I suppose it might be "cheaper" because of subsidies and the lack of taxes -- although that is likely to change if it grows in popularity and Congress gets involved.
:bash:
It sure would be nice if we in the USA could tell the OPECkers to go 'pound sand' after we become self-reliant with regard to our energy needs.
:awais:
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Not feasible. There is not even close to enough bio-waste in the country to satify our energy needs with ethanol alone, not even close. Hydrogen is where we are going. The problem is right now it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it replaces, but the methods are being refined and new processes are evolving so we'll see where that takes us...
P.S. Don't tell my boss I said that. I'm a Petroleum Engineer!
P.S. Don't tell my boss I said that. I'm a Petroleum Engineer!
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OUTRNNR said:Not feasible. There is not even close to enough bio-waste in the country to satify our energy needs with ethanol, not even close. Hydrogen is where we are going. The problem is right now it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it replaces, but the methods are being refined and new processes are evolving so we'll see where that takes us...
P.S. Don't tell my boss I said that. I'm a Petroleum Engineer!
That's what I originally thought as well, but the article mentions recent biotech breakthroughs which allow cellulosic ethanol to be made with "everything from prairie switchgrass and wood chips to corn husks and other agricultural waste". Surely there is enough of that to go around...and Brasil is already doing it.
With new E85 cars already hitting the market and automakers like GM making the transition (quote from the article):
"In the next few weeks the auto giant is set to unveil an unlikely marketing campaign drawing attention to E85 and its E85-ready cars and trucks like the Chevy Avalanche. They will sport special yellow gas caps, and if you already own such a vehicle, GM will send you a gas cap free."
I don't see how we are headed towards hydrogen and not ethanol.
JB. said:
JB- I think that article is over 10 years old!
I understand all the hype about ethanol as a result of the oil crisis in the 70's. I believe ethanol had a net energy loss back then when you factor in the manufacturing process. But apparently new technology in manufacturing now gives it a net energy gain, even when factoring in the costs of growing the plants. I'm no expert, but that is what I have come across in my research while "web surfing" today.
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OK, well after doing some web-based research on ethanol and plant derived fuels I guess ethanol IS the way to go. I haven't researched this topic in 5 years, and back then it was economically impossible to support the claims because of a net energy loss. But all the evidence is clearly differenct today, and after reading recent articles on the topic and seeing what other countries of the world are doing with ethanol, I'm sold.
Can our 4Runners run on E85? I don't see how they couldn't, its basically 105 octane gasoline. I read one article where some guy puts E85 into his old Chevy Astro van and old Volvo and they run better than before!
Very interesting articles out there. I urge everyone to read about this up and coming alternative fuel.
Can our 4Runners run on E85? I don't see how they couldn't, its basically 105 octane gasoline. I read one article where some guy puts E85 into his old Chevy Astro van and old Volvo and they run better than before!
Very interesting articles out there. I urge everyone to read about this up and coming alternative fuel.
RL Lemke
New member
Starting this year we will see a huge push toward ethanol, as it is the replacement of choice for MTBE. Even though it takes 6 times the energy to produce ethanol then we get out of it, it is produced here in the USA.
The two articles that came out is reaction to the ethanol study were way off base. It is as if the authors of the articles didn't even read the report. Predetermined agenda?
Our ability to produce cost effective ethanol is a LONG way off. But the current cost of ethanol is but a fraction of the cost we will suffer from the EPA's last egg-head idea: MTBE. The half life of the toxic MTBE, in our waterways, will affect many generations.
The two articles that came out is reaction to the ethanol study were way off base. It is as if the authors of the articles didn't even read the report. Predetermined agenda?
Our ability to produce cost effective ethanol is a LONG way off. But the current cost of ethanol is but a fraction of the cost we will suffer from the EPA's last egg-head idea: MTBE. The half life of the toxic MTBE, in our waterways, will affect many generations.
RunnerUp
New member
you dont need to be a good ole boy in kentucky to make some 'shine. all you need is a keg shell and a stupid friend... i mean
hey! so lets get some links to this new info.... would this just be like pouring it in your gas tank and it will run? i could see how it would destroy the fuel lines and such, but have no idea how fast it would do that... very interesting idea... and i like the thought of them pounding sand, saying "why did we try to kill them? now who do we sell our oil too? even cars here are running on america's fuel... what happened!!"
hey! so lets get some links to this new info.... would this just be like pouring it in your gas tank and it will run? i could see how it would destroy the fuel lines and such, but have no idea how fast it would do that... very interesting idea... and i like the thought of them pounding sand, saying "why did we try to kill them? now who do we sell our oil too? even cars here are running on america's fuel... what happened!!"
ToyotaDan
Guest
OUTRNNR said:Not feasible. There is not even close to enough bio-waste in the country to satify our energy needs with ethanol alone, not even close. Hydrogen is where we are going. The problem is right now it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it replaces, but the methods are being refined and new processes are evolving so we'll see where that takes us...
P.S. Don't tell my boss I said that. I'm a Petroleum Engineer!
10% reduction would be a lot... 20% would be perfect... by my house, ethanol is $1.90 a gallon. If toyota doesnt come up with E-85 4runner or land cruiser, my next SUV will be one that does - it will be back to GM for me... Yukon or Tahoe. It's not about saving money on gas, it's about not giving OPEC my money.
ToyotaDan said:
So I sent Toyota corp an email asking about ethanol capability in new vehicles, and look at the response I get. What a bunch of morons:
----- Original Message ----
From: Ask Toyota <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:48:52 PM
Subject: Ethanol (E85) capability on Toyotas [Incident: 060202-000108]
Recently you contacted Toyota. Below is a summary of your contact message and our response.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Response (Beth Rapadas) 02/02/2006 10:48 AM
Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
We appreciate your interest in Toyota Ethanol 85 vehicles.
We apologize; we do not currently have any announced plans to introduce a Toyota Truck taking 85 octane. We are, however, aware of consumer interest in this type of vehicle and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters under file #200602020625.
We thank you for your enthusiasm about our products and hope that you will continue to consider Toyota for your driving needs.
If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us.
Toyota Customer Experience
-----
Customer 02/02/2006 10:35 AM
GM is now launching there new models with ethanol (E85) fuel capability, and they are planning a large new marketing campaign around this. However, I can't find any news or information regarding Toyotas and ethanol. Given the lower price of ethanol and it's non-reliance on foreign oil, it is an important factor in my buying decision. Is anything planned?
Sincerely,
x
ToyotaDan
Guest
Otto said:
At least they responded... I think it's a matter of time before they do come up with something. At least I hope so. I talked to a local speed shop people, and they said they have had numerous requests about converting the fuel system to accept ethanol. I guess its a matter of new fuel lines, a new fuel pump that is non corrosive. They think they will have a <$300 kit installed within this year - based on the demand.
And before someone says that it will take me 2 years to recover $300, after seeing the religion of peace threaten people over a cartoon today, I am really ready to tell OPEC to go screw themselves. Even if it costs me money.
I saw a piece on 60 minutes or some such thing where they were talking about being able to produce hydrocarbon 'gasoline' from coal waste. They are building a plant in W.Va. to produce some right now, and think that they can produce enough with a couple of other plants to supply the whole state with enough gas at something like $1.50 a gallon.
This wouldn't decrease our dependance on fossil fuels (I still think that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future), but if we could use that and ethanol to greatly reduce foreign oil dependance, I say lets do it. The nice thing about the gas-coal stuff is they say it can be run in current engines such as the 4R.
This wouldn't decrease our dependance on fossil fuels (I still think that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future), but if we could use that and ethanol to greatly reduce foreign oil dependance, I say lets do it. The nice thing about the gas-coal stuff is they say it can be run in current engines such as the 4R.
jeober
New member
I've been out of fuel systems engineering for some years but conversion to flexible fuel capability is no simple matter. Material compatibility has been mentioned. Also the OEM uses a sensor to determine the oxygenate (alcohol) level to determine open loop calibration. The oxygenates don't have the BTU density of regular gasoline.
Also the OEM gets a huge CAFE credit with a flex fuel vehicle sale, even if the vehicle never seen a drop of flex fuel. It's something like the vehicle's fuel mileage is computed using the 15% portion of the gasoline used in the E85 and this inflated number is applied to the corporate's average.
Also the OEM gets a huge CAFE credit with a flex fuel vehicle sale, even if the vehicle never seen a drop of flex fuel. It's something like the vehicle's fuel mileage is computed using the 15% portion of the gasoline used in the E85 and this inflated number is applied to the corporate's average.
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I agree that we have to reduce our dependence on imported oil, particularly from the Middle East. Furthermore, oil is too valuable a finite non-renewable resource to be sending up in smoke. If you consider the other uses of petroleum it seems ludicrous to be burning it up.
As far as ethanol production and use as a renewable fuel, the switch is not a slam-dunk. The downsides to overcome are the energy needed to make the ethanol itself, the lower energy content of ethanol (2/3 of gasoline) thus decreased mileage, necessitating larger gas tanks. The gas pumps and storage tanks at the fuel stations will need to be modified for the same reasons as automobile fuel systems (corrosion and size). Enormous amounts of land will have to be planted, cultivated, harvested, and then the byproducts of the fermentation process will have to be dealt with. The price of grains for human and animal consumption will probably go up because of the competition.
There are probably many more problems associated with this scheme that I believe only seems to be used with any success in Brazil. At best, I think this is only a stopgap measure to assuage public concern over energy independence, and that hydrogen power/fuel cell technology will be the way to go. Finally, the oil companies with all their financial clout will work against any measures to reduce their livelihood so that will further make any transition to more intelligent use of petroleum products much more difficult.
I
As far as ethanol production and use as a renewable fuel, the switch is not a slam-dunk. The downsides to overcome are the energy needed to make the ethanol itself, the lower energy content of ethanol (2/3 of gasoline) thus decreased mileage, necessitating larger gas tanks. The gas pumps and storage tanks at the fuel stations will need to be modified for the same reasons as automobile fuel systems (corrosion and size). Enormous amounts of land will have to be planted, cultivated, harvested, and then the byproducts of the fermentation process will have to be dealt with. The price of grains for human and animal consumption will probably go up because of the competition.
There are probably many more problems associated with this scheme that I believe only seems to be used with any success in Brazil. At best, I think this is only a stopgap measure to assuage public concern over energy independence, and that hydrogen power/fuel cell technology will be the way to go. Finally, the oil companies with all their financial clout will work against any measures to reduce their livelihood so that will further make any transition to more intelligent use of petroleum products much more difficult.
I
JB. said:
That comment was directed towards the droids that answer the emails at Toyota, not the engineers, designers, or anyone else. I sent them a question about E85 ethanol (85% ethanol fuel) capability, and they reply with "we do not currently have any announced plans to introduce a Toyota Truck taking 85 octane"
I would have rather had no reply than that, it just loweres their credibility. They didn't even bother to read the question.
If you REALLY want to stare at the ceiling all night, try http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
