[MENTION=115953]HerT4R[/MENTION],
i will clarify my responses with: i am not in the military, never have been. Have one really good friend who is in the military currently and my girlfriend's father was in the military. I do not know all your fancy acronyms or all the training programs or when and where courses go on, how they go on, or who decides what is what. Many of the questions aren't to be flame-ful, but take them as you will.
I appreciate your questions and this has been a good discussion thus far. I am very familiar with this process and will respond to your comments.
oh i almost forgot: please freak out, a woman just spoke her mind, and didn't make you a sandwich. The HORROR!
For the purpose of this discussion I will be dealing with facts and not emotions. Facts make great engines for thought and discussion, while emotions make great cabooses. If you let emotions drive your discussion it will lack direction and logic.
1) They were given three chances to pass the first phase... which is unprecedented. Dudes don't get three chances...
source? I've been following this a little bit and haven't heard this. Please enlighten me.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-armys-first-female-ranger-school-graduates/
“All eight women then failed the first Darby Phase twice, and only three — Griest, Haver and the third remaining soldier still in the mountaineering phase — were allowed to try Ranger School again. They do so as a “Day 1 recycle,” an option that is offered on occasion to both men and women who excel in some aspects of Ranger School but fall short in something specific that can be improved.”
I have two friends who started Ranger School around this same time. One was in this class with the 19 women. Both failed on their first attempt of the first phase and were not afforded an opportunity to again. They were given a plane ticket home. These women were not allowed to fail. It was a priority for at least one of them to pass.
2) They had a cadre of female observers who were supposed to supervise the ranger instructors to ensure "fairness"
interesting... i guess i fail to see the problem with this when most of the military is men, and there is this funny thing out there called sexism. Sexism also takes many forms, take a read THE NEW SUBTLE SEXISM TOWARD WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE. Because i consider the military a workplace at the end of the day, i see no issue with oversight to try to keep things as fair as possible.
31 women chosen for Ranger Course assessment
“The Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade chose 20 NCOs and 11 officers as observers and advisers for the assessment”
“He said the observer/advisers will serve as extra eyes and ears and as a sounding board for the Ranger instructors, but they will not evaluate or grade Ranger school students.
"We thought it would be helpful to bring women into the course prior to the arrival of the first women students" to ease "isolation" issues or concerns among female students, Fivecoat said, to give them "an opportunity to succeed."
No one else gets this treatment. The male students do not have a support staff looking out for them making sure that the Ranger Instructors are not picking on them during the course. The Male students do not have Cadre who will run to the chain of command and report unfair/harsh treatment. This most likely deterred any special attention being given to any of the female students. It is the special attention that breaks people mentally. It’s a lot easier to slide by if you’re never in the spotlight of the big bad Ranger Instructors…
3) They went through the course Starting in April getting the best weather of the year to help them out...
trying to gain a little information here: do men not also take the course in april? Are men who take it in april any weaker that those who take it other times during the year?
The course is run year round starting every class the first week of each month except December. Soldiers slotted for the course are not given an option on what slot they are given. Starting the course early spring allows for the most mild temperatures especially during the assessment phase where the “standards” are met during PT tests/runs etc… A morning run in GA in the month of April is a nice cool 50-60 degrees, while in August it is 80-90 at 6 in the morning with high humidity, and January its 30-40... at 6am when you’re going to do the water swim test outside in the lake…
Yes, those who attend Ranger School honestly admit there is a difference between a winter and a spring/summer ranger. Those that attend in the winter historically have sewn their tabs onto their uniforms with white thread to let everyone know they were a winter Ranger.
There is a reason the first 19 women to attempt Ranger School began in April.
4) They went in the summer time when the packing list is significantly lighter.
trying to gain a little information here: do men not also complete this in summertime? are the summertime finishers of this course any weaker than those who finish the course other times in the year?
Again yes. The winter packing list is significantly heavier. For safety reasons, they are required to carry cold weather gear (usually not allowed to use it) but must be carried for emergencies. Winter boots, coats, winter weight sleeping bag. The summer packing list fits in the ruck sack. The winter packing list makes a ruck look like a traveling gypsy camp. Winter load usually requires the three day pack to be attached to the top of the ruck just to accommodate the extra equipment. Summer ruck weights 50-80lbs. Winter ruck weghts 70-100+lbs
Most who attend hope for a spring start date. No one wants to attend the winter phase. Summer is difficult due to the heat. Fall is bad because if you recycle it can push you into the winter months.
5) I have not seen one picture with any of them carrying anything other than their ruck "personal packing list" and an m4 the lightest weapons system...
trying to gain a little information here: is this typical for this season? how does one designate who gets what weapon?
To be fair I found one picture of one of the females carrying a 249 light machine gun (17 lbs empty). All other pictures they were carrying the m4 (6.36 lbs empty). Not sure if they carried the 240B (27.6 lbs empty) The Cadre select who is in what position. Once assigned to a squad it is up to the students to pick their own weapons. In the Weapons squad the gunner carries the heavy 240, the Assistant Gunner carries the steel tripod (25lbs) with an m4 and the weapons squad leader carries an m4. Usually the bigger/stronger students carry the heaver weapons and the smaller/weaker students gravitate towards the m4s. Again the male students don’t have cadre saying it is not fair that they were stuck with the 249 or 240 for two missions in a row… the female cadre would very likely prevent the females from being stuck with a heavy weapon system for too long…
6) Its a political agenda being pushed. Nothing more nothing less.
this last statement is the only one i am taking a little offense to. Equality is a political agenda? I think women should be given the same opportunities and qualification testing and if they make it, they make it. if they are unable to, they are unable to, just like the men. Why not give women a chance? if they pass, they passed of their own accord. if they fail, they fail of their own accord.
do you think women should be given the same opportunities as men?
Equality is a political agenda:
Pay Equality:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/equal-pay
Marriage Equality:
Marriage Equality | Revel & Riot
Gender Equality:
Gender equality | UNFPA - United Nations Population Fund
Income equality:
Income Inequality | Inequality.org
Racial Equality:
An Open Letter to White Men in America*|*Rev. Dr. John C. Dorhauer
I don’t think you can deny that equality is a pretty big political movement. I support equality. Everyone should be treated equally under the law. People should be paid equally for equal work… etc.
Our problem comes when we think that equality = sameness or that equal opportunity = equal outcomes. As for Ranger School. Let anyone who qualifies (in the top 1% of the military) try out. But don’t treat them any different than the other students. They should not be slotted any differently, no special cadre watching out for them, no extra chances, no special exceptions, etc… Cause what happens is that equal opportunity suddenly morphs into favored treatment resulting in equal outcomes.
7) Sure, they did survive for 120 days or whatever it took them to get through but ranger school and elite units are not about surviving. They are not about meeting the standard. They are supposed to be about blowing the standard out of the water...
The two women who are graduating tomorrow deserve our congratulations. They endured a lot over the past 4 months. However, it remains unclear how they made it thought the course. I just don’t see how they could have pulled the same weight as larger stronger male students. Yes, these women are probably stronger and faster than many male Soldiers. But that is not the metric we are measuring against. They entered the upper echelon of units by attending Ranger School. It is a select group of the strongest, fastest, toughest Soldiers who usually stand out from their peers. Only 1% of the Army gets a chance to attend Ranger School.There are hundreds of way more qualified men in the military than these two women who will not be given a slot to attend Ranger School.
Hope I answered at least some of your questions.
opcorn:
