CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
I have never had leather last more than 10 years in any car. Honda’s leather is especially poor. Mercedes leather was better.
I don’t have assless chaps, never will. Not a member of the Brokeback Mountain Club.
XREAS removal
- Thread starter scott_tiller
- Start date
I have never had leather last more than 10 years in any car. Honda’s leather is especially poor. Mercedes leather was better.
I don’t have assless chaps, never will. Not a member of the Brokeback Mountain Club.
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
We let the guy in the truck handle it. In the past, I have pulled out a full sized school bus with my 4WD diesel Suburban.
However, I put in a new transmission and transfer case in the Suburban last spring and I am having issues with the NVG-246 autotrac transfer case. I can get it into verified 4Hi, but the button stays flashing. 4Lo and AWD are not working and the buttons just flash. I was trouble shooting the electrical as much as I could in the cold weather. Did find an issue on one circuit. I was working off excerpts from the shop manual. A guy will be sending me a CD which allows you to access GM shop manuals online. My employer has me back in the office two days a week in LA, so I am at our home in Fullerton, CA while the Suburban is at our place in Montana. I get to miss forecasted snow and sub-zero temps next week.
aggrobot
New member
Beat me to it. While the torsen (literally short for torque-sensing) can adapt very quickly to adjust from 40:60, 30:70, to even 53:47 front: rear distribution, its still mechanical, and its still sending this to open diffs on each axel. Dont get me wrong, the shifting in power is hugely beneficial for traction in adverse conditions, but it is inferior to a true AWD system.
Humble Leader
Senior Member
does the computer not moderate the throttle and apply the brakes though? maybe computer isn't the right word, but something is making those communications with the brakes and throttle, no ?
is it the 6.5L turbo diesel? I've never seen one in person. I don't know how much I'd drive my 4runner if I had one of those big diesel engine rigs lol
rdruss
Senior Member
4Rums, yes that is the best and most detailed explanation of the Toyota transfer case with CDL that you can find, I believe. I have watched it several times and still find it difficult to grasp how it (center diff) works. What kind of mind came up with and was able to actually produce such a device? Far beyond my imagineering!
aggrobot
New member
its rear biased, 40:60 under normal conditions, can go 30:70, or 53:47, but its all mechanical. no computer at all, but again, this is to each axel, not each wheel. All 5th gen 4wd runners have open diffs on each axel. I want to be very clear in this next part: Im not disputing that traction control can mimic some behaviors of an AWD system, IE, apply brakes to a slipping wheel to send power to the other wheel with traction, but this is not the same as a limited slip diff or locker. This does NOT make our system an AWD system though.
We do agree on one point you've raised: there is much confusion surrounding this system. I think its great. Its why I bought the limited. IMO, its not a "true" AWD system in the sense that not all wheels are receiving power at all times. simply both axels in our case, just like any traditional 4WD system, hence why I'm suggesting Toyota has been very deliberate in calling it "Full-time 4wd," and it is only we Limited owners that have been using the term interchangeably.
If we still disagree, it may be best for me to better understand how you define an AWD system vs 4wd. I hope ive been pretty clear in how id describe them, but its worth repeating: AWD: power goes to all wheels, all the time. Part-time 4WD: power goes to a single axel at all times, unless placed into 4WD, in which case power goes to both axels (how each axel behaves is up to the differential or lack thereof). Full-Time 4WD: Just 4WD, but "full time." Both axels get power at all times with the caveat of it being capable of changing dynamically when traction is compromised. Again, both axels still have open diffs.
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aggrobot
New member
For traction control, ONLY brakes are applied to modify power distribution. Application of the throttle is still up to the driver, and in many cases they immediately let off the gas when these implements fire off. its not the same as the functionality afforded by a limited slip, especially when cornering in low-grip situations.
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
Humble Leader
Senior Member
to me 4WD and 4x4 are the same, meaning 50% front to rear. To my simple brain AWD means all 4wheels can receive power when needed in various proportions. I've seen so many articles and reviews when buying my 4runner that used fulltime 4WD, AWD and full time AWD in the description of the truck, even dealer websites, that I just grouped them all together as AWD lol. for the most part though, in general conversation I think you can say the limited has an AWD system. while sure technically it might not be 100% true, it's true enough to help people understand how it works that don't care about differentials or lockers or LSDs etc.
aggrobot
New member
We do agree on 4wd and 4x4 being interchangeable, and we also agree that this is made possible by the transfer case binding it all up (50/50). Its certainly possible to describe something in any manner you choose. Calling a 4WD system an AWD system, while "true enough," in your context, is another way of gently calling this factually incorrect to me. Many do not understand the difference between 4wd and AWD, and I feel that is the core of our discussion. Toyota always has called it full-time 4WD, and its certainly been confused in many discussions every since. ignoring the 50/50 split and gearing for a moment: if you put any other 4runner into 4wd and never took it out, thats our system. our center diff just gives us the luxury of things not binding up, so that things like corners, and every day driving are possible. So, back to my initial point: calling it AWD is not entirely accurate. Other 4runner owners dumping all over the system because its somehow inferior is goofy. They're essentially the same but one is full-time.
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Humble Leader
Senior Member
with a kinetic rope you would have made easy work out of that bus. hopefully there were no kids on the bus, didn't look like it to me. who's at fault if the bus tips over and kids get hurt? recovering people from a snowbank is one of those things that if someone wants or asks you to do for them you should be removed of all liability to their vehicle damanges. I don't think I'd risk a school bus with kids in it though without specific insurance. had someone stuck in a snowbank near my house, honda civic drove off the road but not in a ditch. I was going to offer them a tow but instead decided to offer to help shovel them out - when I went back they were gone...
Grug556
New member
Nice pic. I like you, apparently drive slow in the snow and ice. But you gotta admit if you go out on the highway theres plenty of people zipping by in heavy snow and ice at 60mph.
I am not sure why your cracking so hard on the Limited. I have two of them. ONe is totally stock, the other quite modded and likely can outperform most base SR5s easily off road at this point.
I have dragged a few people out of the ditch in the last few years. One was a jeep on MTs.. others were the usual CUV on all seasons...
Not sure where you are in Montana, but Ive been shopping for land up near Eureka and Rexford. You have a fantastic state you live in. I already bought my Montana state flag, its hanging behind me.
The leather in the limited is synthetic and easily as durable if not more durable than the cloth. This is documented by many users with dogs and more than a decade and 100k+ miles of use.
The whole argument on limited 4WD is just plain stupid. In “normal” setting, limited provides better traction than RWD. In 4Hi and 4 Lo it is identical to every other trim with 4WD. Locking and limited slip front and/or rear axle can improve over the limited setup.
However, unless you use your 4Runner in the most extreme scenarios, the comparisons being made become minute enough that wearing the correct tires is far more significant.
To the OP - you never disclosed why you want to remove your XREAS. If it hasn’t failed and you aren’t dying for a lift, I wouldn’t do anything. If it has failed, you have endless options covering all variables of cost, lift, ride quality, durability, and so on.
The whole argument on limited 4WD is just plain stupid. In “normal” setting, limited provides better traction than RWD. In 4Hi and 4 Lo it is identical to every other trim with 4WD. Locking and limited slip front and/or rear axle can improve over the limited setup.
However, unless you use your 4Runner in the most extreme scenarios, the comparisons being made become minute enough that wearing the correct tires is far more significant.
To the OP - you never disclosed why you want to remove your XREAS. If it hasn’t failed and you aren’t dying for a lift, I wouldn’t do anything. If it has failed, you have endless options covering all variables of cost, lift, ride quality, durability, and so on.
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I am confused. If our limited awd isn’t really awd then what are the Audi Quattros that have been using torsen center diffs since the 90s? What is your definition of ‘true awd’???
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I realize I've been allowing myself to be triggered by you showing up a thread clearly about Limited trims and throwing around comments like "it's a cuv" and borderline slurs re: leather. Not sure why you've joined this thread, but you're not helping the OP. I'm guessing you're just a) trolling and b) justifying your purchase. You're right, you've bought the best and only real 4runner. You are amazing, and a fairly effective troll. We're idiots and not real men. Cheers.
Humble Leader
Senior Member
I think the minutia here is that there are different AWD systems. the 4runner gets a torsen center differential. it's AWD system (pardon me, full time 4WD system) is like the land cruiser with low range and a locking differential (4HI and 4LO). This is different from say the Rav 4's AWD system, with the 4runner system being much more capable for tougher terrain. AWD seems to be a blanket term and only in the off-roading communities do people get their jimmies rustled when the terms are used interchangeably
he's trolling lol
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
We are in Stevensville, which is about 20 miles south of Missoula down in the Bitterroot Valley.
My main knock on Limited is the XREAS. Based on what I’ve read, it’s really a suspension mod for on-road and highway driving. Never had it, so I can’t tell you if it offers much value over the stock suspension. I do know, based on anecdotal reads here, that it is prone to going out and is expensive to repair, so most convert back to stock. Some have posted that it goes 150K miles and that is what they expect to hold the car for. We’ve got 322K miles on a 2014 SR5, so we use the car much longer than the life expectancy of XREAS.
Some here worry about body roll in curves at high speed, thus see value in the KDSS or the XREAS. We did not buy a 4Runner to hit curves at high speed. You buy a sports car for that. SUVs like my Suburban and the 4Runner are good at going straight and going off-road, which is why I own them.
aggrobot
New member
In my previous posts, I define “true AWD,” but admittedly, I’m a rambler. I define “true AWD” as a system in which power is delivered to all wheels, simultaneously, - including low-grip conditions.
On a traditional 4wd system, power is sent to all 4 wheels simultaneously until traction is compromised. At which point, power will be delivered to the wheel with the least amount of resistance (ie, spinning the wheel with no traction). This is how the limited behaves, with the major exception being it can dynamically send power to the AXEL with more grip. Its kind of a hallway-mark bridging the two systems.
Regarding your question about Audis and the center diff: the center diff is only one component of the whole. The limited’s center diff is sending power to two open diff axels. I’ve summarized the distinction between the two behaviors above. I hope this helps.
Grug556
New member
The XREAS is a weird system. On super smooth highway it rides like glass..very smooth. On even the smallest expansion joint or tar ripple its like riding over a brick. Harsher off road oddly slightly better. That said replacing it witht the kings turned up high still yields and overall far more comfortable and controlled ride. When i drive my other Limited that still has XREAS the tar strip small bump thing drives me nuts.. if you had to drive it everyday its less noticeable but still a good enough reason to replace a system that is known to leak.
Agreed on the speed stuff, I prefer driving it like the bus it is.. this makes me happy. Im done driving turbo german sleds that go over 160mph. Getting to old for the speed
I looked at some places down in the Bitterroot, very nice area! I think I like the area backing into the Kootenai national forest the best. No bag limit on Moutain lion. Sure would be nice to shoot a few dozen and eat them. :rapture:
Ah, OK. I think I'm following. So in your definition AWD is:
- Center diff of some kind that is always sending power to front and rear through either a viscous or torsen or computer-controlled (e.g Haldex) system
- front and rear axles must have limited slip? Or, is it enough that if they are open diffs that they have brake/abs driven systems that will brake the slipping wheel and drive power to the other wheel on that axle? This is super common. It's what VW, Audi, Subaru and I think even our 4runners use if they don't have a true mechanical limited slip? Again, we're probably splitting hairs but even "axles" without a true clutch or torsen limited slip can approximate it pretty well with the single-wheel-braking system that many use.
Regardless: One of the key reasons I went from an ORP to a Limited was the full time AWD (or whatever you want to call it). For my use case (YMMV), I spend a decent amount of time driving at speed in hard rain, scattered icy conditions, some snow/slush. Along with some driving on grass slopes. The ORP frankly sucked at this compared by my previous GX470. No, I'm not going to look ahead, see the hydroplaning risk, or the ice, and shift into 4wd. Nor did I want to shift into 4wd any time I was on a grassy slope, or a launching ramp. I just want the truck to have great traction all the time. To be a freight train in these conditions (of course with the right tires). The Limited does this. As did the GX, and as have a few of our old Audis. The feeling of control with these Torsen systems is really amazing. FWIW it's far better than any viscous/computer-controlled AWD setup I've owned. Including Subaru, our Macan, our old Honda Pilot. The "sense slip then react" can be really unnerving in some situations. The Torsen applies torque to both axles *all the time*.
Cheers. I hope the OP got their XREAS removed successfully. I think I'm probably 5 years from needing to worry about it at the rate I'm driving. And, for my use, with ORP 17s on it and recommended tire pressure, it rides pretty well. It doesn't ride as well as my old ORP but it handles much better on the road.
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