Suggestions for Icy roads?

Best all season that were awesome in the snow were vredestein quatrac 5's that i had on my Acura TL. Far better than Blizzak’s & Nokian. There Snow Trac 5's are awesome dedicated snows, great on ice relatively.

Ill have to check to see if they have them in the 4Runner size.
 
I’m running Wildpeaks and they are snowflake rated which I understand is hard to achieve compared to “all seasons” which is a joke here in the frozen tundra of ND, hasn’t been above freezing since Dec 15. I understand that other areas of the country you have wet snow/ice in comparison to our cold crap which is totally different. My Wildpeaks are great so far as winter performance and so impressed with them all round as far as ride etc that I will get them again hands down. Just have to be like everyone says leave space, slow down!
 
I’m running Wildpeaks and they are snowflake rated which I understand is hard to achieve compared to “all seasons” which is a joke here in the frozen tundra of ND, hasn’t been above freezing since Dec 15. I understand that other areas of the country you have wet snow/ice in comparison to our cold crap which is totally different. My Wildpeaks are great so far as winter performance and so impressed with them all round as far as ride etc that I will get them again hands down. Just have to be like everyone says leave space, slow down!

After 20 hours of reading and over thinking everything I caved in, my pavement princess is getting new shoes. I also have the Falken Wildpeaks AT with the snowflake as well in a 275/70/17 size. They look awesome but offer zero traction on thin ice which we seem to get more and more of in Indiana. I have decided I need a much more of a pavement friendly tire that will also offer the same traction I have with my 2WD pickup, with is not great by any means but still WAY better than my new 4runner. I ordered some pizza cutters. Michelin Defender LTX M/S in a 255/75/17 size. I don't need AT tire, I bought the Falkens mostly because they looked good on the 4Runner. It is very rare for me to leave the pavement so that was a stupid purchase to begin with. Somone on here had commented about thinner tires so I did the research on that as well. I have had Michelins in the past and loved them. The new tires are all season and not winter tires and they are not AT but they will offer me a tire I believe I can leave on all year around and drive safely on the roads around here without doing a 180 in the middle of the road. And just for the record I am 60 years old with a perfect driving record and have held a class A CDL for 30 years, I'm not a lead footed youngster.
 
How does 4x4 help you stop faster?

I'll try to remember to post the math tomorrow. Way too much for my phone.

The cliffs notes version:

Mechanically locked wheels decelerate at a unform rate. Uniform brake force does not. The two produce different results. And on uneven dynamic breaking surfaces with a high gap between static and kinetic friction, the mechanically linked tires will stop faster because they can maximize the static friction and the uniform brake force cannot.

You can try it. Anyone with a 4x4 4runner can do back to back test in 2wd and, 4X4. 4x4 will stop faster on snow and ice. There's also YouTube videos of people testing it. It works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bXdXRbc2Rc&feature=youtu.be

There's also some theories written about it including by big name car mags that are not so good IMO. So if you read about snow plow piling in front of tires - ignore those - they're nnonsense. It works on ice too.
 
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I'll try to remember to post the math tomorrow. Way too much for my phone.

The cliffs notes version:

Mechanically locked wheels decelerate at a unform rate. Uniform brake force does not. The two produce different results. And on uneven dynamic breaking surfaces with a high gap between static and kinetic friction, the mechanically linked tires will stop faster because they can maximize the static friction and the uniform brake force cannot.

You can try it. Anyone with a 4x4 4runner can do back to back test in 2wd and, 4X4. 4x4 will stop faster on snow and ice. There's also YouTube videos of people testing it. It works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bXdXRbc2Rc&feature=youtu.be

There's also some theories written about it including by big name car mags that are not so good IMO. So if you read about snow plow piling in front of tires - ignore those - they're nnonsense. It works on ice too.

It's nice to know, I will try it next time the roads get icy which should be middle of the coming week. I wouldn't have thought it, but sounds like it would help.
 
I get a kick out of watching people go tooo slow and then fall of the grade in corners, which is exactly where stay four times further back comes in handy so you’re not victim to someone else’s shitty driving maladies. Those physics classes in middle school, more people should listen.

Totally agree snow and ice specific tires… or take public transit :-)
 
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It's nice to know, I will try it next time the roads get icy which should be middle of the coming week. I wouldn't have thought it, but sounds like it would help.

It's not intuitive why. It took me an afternoon of kicking it around in my office before I came up with the solution. Im sure I'm not the first.

I think people who live in northern climates tend to know from experience. It used to be a lot bigger difference in the old days before modern electronic brake proportioning and abs. It still works, but the difference isn't as big as it once was.
 
One of the best things you can do for icy and or snow covered roads is to get out there and practice. Pick a deserted parking lot on a Sunday or at a time it's empty and learn how your vehicle behaves when you loose traction; by turning, braking or accelerating. Have fun with it - but be aware of things like light poles and curb bumpers. You can learn a lot, so you'll be prepared when you find yourself sliding or spinning for real. Practice in every vehicle you own and in all modes. My Dad had me do this when I was learning to drive years ago. The knowledge I gained has saved my ass many times over.
 
to the OP: to answer your question in short, no there is no tire you can run all year that will compare to a winter tire and give you the summer performance of an AT tire. the rubber compounds and siping are different between the two types of tires

the 3PMSF is a false sense of security, it just means it will give better traction than a standard M+S tire. all 3PMSF tires are not the same

many people have given some good suggestions here, personally I run michelin xice and have been for years. I'm a michelin fanboy though, defender M+S for the 4runner, latitude for my wife's RX and XICE for the both vehicles in the winter. it's nice to not have to drive like a grandma as soon as it gets cold, snowy and icy

put high quality dedicated winter tires on and it's no comparison with the ATs. I know you like them but they just cant compete in the deep cold/freezing temps
 
I'll try to remember to post the math tomorrow. Way too much for my phone.

The cliffs notes version:

Mechanically locked wheels decelerate at a unform rate. Uniform brake force does not. The two produce different results. And on uneven dynamic breaking surfaces with a high gap between static and kinetic friction, the mechanically linked tires will stop faster because they can maximize the static friction and the uniform brake force cannot.

You can try it. Anyone with a 4x4 4runner can do back to back test in 2wd and, 4X4. 4x4 will stop faster on snow and ice. There's also YouTube videos of people testing it. It works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bXdXRbc2Rc&feature=youtu.be

There's also some theories written about it including by big name car mags that are not so good IMO. So if you read about snow plow piling in front of tires - ignore those - they're nnonsense. It works on ice too.

Nice video, thanks for sharing. Not exactly "scientific", but still interesting experiment and results. In this example with his 2nd Generation Tacoma, it may be true that 4WD is better due to a constant Brake Distribution force (70 F/30 R ish) that you can add some extra engine braking force and better distribute the braking for the traction scenario.

However, more modern vehicles use EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) that is not at a constant distribution. Rather modern EBD is variable and is coupled with ABS for further control. It is able to distribute brake force between front and rear as well as individual wheels.

So, in theory the absolute best case braking on a modern vehicle would be in Neutral. That's because the drivetrain cannot create any unexpected changes in torque (downshift) and your brake system generates 10x+ the brake torque of engine braking/downshifting so it's contribution is insignificant. This allows the EBD to apply the maximum brake torque to each wheel individually for it's available traction. The EBD is constantly shuffling this torque based on a feedback loop with wheel speed, vehicle speed, steering angle, and other sensors to always maximize wheel torque per traction. Essentially launch control in reverse.
 
Nice video, thanks for sharing. Not exactly "scientific", but still interesting experiment and results. In this example with his 2nd Generation Tacoma, it may be true that 4WD is better due to a constant Brake Distribution force (70 F/30 R ish) that you can add some extra engine braking force and better distribute the braking for the traction scenario.

However, more modern vehicles use EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) that is not at a constant distribution. Rather modern EBD is variable and is coupled with ABS for further control. It is able to distribute brake force between front and rear as well as individual wheels.

So, in theory the absolute best case braking on a modern vehicle would be in Neutral. That's because the drivetrain cannot create any unexpected changes in torque (downshift) and your brake system generates 10x+ the brake torque of engine braking/downshifting so it's contribution is insignificant. This allows the EBD to apply the maximum brake torque to each wheel individually for it's available traction. The EBD is constantly shuffling this torque based on a feedback loop with wheel speed, vehicle speed, steering angle, and other sensors to always maximize wheel torque per traction. Essentially launch control in reverse.

Modern electronics work well. But not as well as mechanical linkage. It would require time travel for electronic brake force distribution to equal mechanical linkage.

It starts with a basic idea of the threshold of motion. At any level of brake force applied to the tire/road interface before it skids, the friction force equals the applied force. And 2wd and 4x4 cars will stop similarly. That holds true until you reach the threshold of motion. The threshold of motion is the point at which the applied force exceeds the maximum static friction - this is where you start to skid. Once you start to skid you are now in a state of kinetic friction with the surface. The the graph at the bottom shows this threshold at different deltas between static and kinetic. On snow and ice the delta is significant. Often 10:1 or greater.

Braking system on most vehicles is friction surfaces actuated by hydraulic pressure. Each tire’s brake operates largely independent of the other tires brakes and the vehicle using software and mechanical systems attempts to apply approximately similar normal force adjusted (weight on the tire) braking force. The idea being if there is a uniform road surface and brake force is adjusted to match the weight on the tire, it'll reach the threshold of motion about the same time as the other tires.

The assumption of uniform surface does not hold in snow and ice conditions. At any given time on snow and ice each tire may have significantly different contact patch conditions with the underlying surface. This would be represented on the graph as having the peak static friction (or threshold of motion) being different for each tire and varying rapidly with time/movement as the tire rolls over the variable snow and ice road surface. And that is something that an ECU cannot know, calculate, or adjust for until a tire has already slipped and the signal from the hall effect sensor in the ABS system registers a slip. (This is why it would require time travel for a current ABS system to match mechanical linkage - it would have to detect actual slip in the future, then adjust before it happens.)

The common rotational velocity deceleration with mechanical linked tires (4x4) means all the tires will decelerate together and importantly they will reach the max static friction at the same time. That's the key to stopping faster in this situation. With uncoupled systems (2wd) the first tire to reach max static friction will slip and then the ABS will flutter about the peak friction point giving some less than full braking force as it slips, releases brake force, tires spins again, re applies brake force, and slips again. My guess is the best systems might reach 70%, but I haven't measured it. Might be 50% might be a bit higher. But it's always below 100%.

So to put some really simplified math in here if you have 4 tires that have 5, 10, 15, 20 as the units of static friction at each of the 4 tires and the kinetic friction is 10%, then the linked 4X4 system can achieve the entire combined 50 units of friction with the surface before slipping. The non-linked system will apply uniform brake force to each tire (not the ground after one type slips). So after all 4 tires reach 5 (20 combined) tire 1 slips and starts to slide. Keep applying more brake and at 10 (31 system) tire two slips. And you can keep going to a max of 15 (33 combined units) before tire 3 slips and you’re going to then drop to about 18 combined units. Peak braking friction force applied to stop the car for the uncoupled car is roughly 33 units. Compared to 50 for the coupled system. Under certain conditions the difference is quite large.

The greater the difference between static and kinetic friction and the greater the variability in the road surface the greater the benefit in braking of the mechanical connection. In some conditions it'll be small. In others it'll be quite large. The above represents a snapshot in time, but actual braking is the integral of summation of every moment along the entire stop. And throughout a stop a vehicle may experience points where it has very uniform surface and points where it's significantly varied between each tire's contact patch. Over a stop where there's half a dozen patches of ice and some dry road and some mixed areas - the stopping distance of the 4x4 will end up measurably shorter.

And that's what you see in basically every test of a mechanically linked 4x4 or awd system vs an ABS system. The worst of all would be uncoupling all of the tires if you could shift the transfer case into N at speed as that would effectively disconnect the two rear wheels from each other.

This also does not apply to clutch based awd systems that are open clutch or any other design that is not a mechanical linkage like the Rav4 hybrid that has two independent drive systems. It only works with a true mechanical linkage. It does not have to have locking differentials, because it's transferring torque from traction to non-traction tires, it works in reverse of applied torque from the engine and open diffs work the same as locked in this case. So an awd limited 4Runner will act the same as it would with the center diff locked under braking.

The complete formula for braking distance with static and kinetic friction includes an integral of 4 subfunctions each with a jump discontinuity that varies in magnitude and point of occurrence, so it's very complicated and it would take me a while to even figure out how to write it out on a forum like this. Adding in an abs functionality would make it even more complicated because we'd have to make a bunch of assumptions about the ABS system, processing speed, etc. Maybe I can hand write and take a picture if someone really needs it for some reason.

I'd just rely on empirical results. - go test it. Best part of this is that we can all test it. Any of us who has a 4x4 4Runner can find an icy parking lot and go try it.
 

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Short of studded tires, I don't see how ANY tire on the market can allow you to safely drive on pure ice. In Kansas City, we almost always get freezing rain prior to snow. That 1/16" to 1/8" sheet of ice is extremely dangerous and basically impossible to drive on, much less with any level of safety. Also, if that snow layer is only about 1 to 2 inches dry powder snow, it's quite dangerous to drive on because the snow doesn't adhere to the ice so you still slide quite easily.

I've run all seasons of all types and winter tires on a number of cars and currently AT "snow flake" tires on our 2015 Outback and 2020 TRD ORP. None of those tires stand a chance to pure ice, assuming that's what we're talking about here.

If the roads are icy, STAY AT HOME and the snow crews do their job. It is not worth the risk. I can't think of many situations where one MUST be out driving in terrible conditions.
 
I know you said you want one tire you can run in all conditions, but you're going to find that no one tire works really well in all conditions. Even "All Season" tires are a compromise - in all seasons.

If you really want the absolute best traction in snow and ice driving, you really have to go with a dedicated ice and snow tire - one with a snowflake on the sidewall. Trust me, I live where we average 100" of snow each winter and I've tried just about everything. What do I run on my T4R? Blizzaks.

IMG_2358_1_.JPG

I run exact same tire in Canada. Had bad luck with some other snows. I wouldnt run AT or MT in the winter, they are shit on ice.
 
I think of braking in 4WD like this. Remember, typically the front tires do most of the braking because the weight shifts forward as you brake. All cars have more front brake bias because of this. Look at your calipers, the fronts are much bigger than the rears.

Now think about going down an icy slope in 2WD. You hit the brakes. Because of the forward brake bias, you can easily lock up the front tires. The ABS will kick in, releasing the front brakes and shift some of that braking force to the rear, but not until after you've locked up the front tires.

Now think about the same thing in 4WD. If you have a locked transfer case, you cannot lock up just the fronts, because the front and rear driveshaft both turn at the same rate no matter what. In 4WD, as the front tires slow down, so do the rear. Essentially, 4WD gives you some more rear brake bias.

This is just a different way to explain JetBoy's statement "all the tires will decelerate together and importantly they will reach the max static friction at the same time."
 
Part of the problem is the stock suspension setup in the 4runners. Speaking for myself, I feel like I am driving the truck in the "Hill Climb Game" mode...you know before collecting enough coins to upgrade the shocks. When applying brakes, the 4runner dives forward so on ice, it exaggerates the feeling of skidding.

I had Goodyear ultraterrains (same thing as duratracs) but switched to Michellin defenders m/s 2 because of Minnesota winters... better traction and mpg. Just be warned that defenders are smaller in overall diameter than stock tires in same size so the speedometer will read 1.5 to 2 mph faster than actual speed and potentially registering more miles-not a huge number though.
 
My public school education has failed me in these recent discussions.
I saw another post that narrower tires will do better on snow/ice. But how about 285 vs 265?
My bad if already discussed.
 
My public school education has failed me in these recent discussions.
I saw another post that narrower tires will do better on snow/ice. But how about 285 vs 265?
My bad if already discussed.

There's no correct answer to that question. It depends on the situation. Sometimes wider is better sometimes narrower is better. There's just so many variations of snow and ice.

And with nominal tire sizing not all 285s are even wider than 265s even though they probably should be.

I think there's probably a happy medium somewhere in the middle.
 
My public school education has failed me in these recent discussions.
I saw another post that narrower tires will do better on snow/ice. But how about 285 vs 265?
My bad if already discussed.

Based on years of personal experience, I can tell you that all other things being equal, a narrower Snow and Ice rated tire will do better on hard packed snow and ice than a wider tire. The theory is that you maximize the number of pounds per square inch of contact surface to dig in. Just look at any World Rally Car (WRC) set up for a snow and ice race and you'll see that in motion.

On the other hand, if you're breaking trails in deep snow out in the middle of nowhere, a wider tire (and lower inflation pressure) will do better because it allows you to "float" up on top of everything. Just Google the Top Gear UK episode where they drove specially prepared Toyota 4x4 trucks to the North Pole. And yes, they made it.
 
Modern electronics work well. But not as well as mechanical linkage. It would require time travel for electronic brake force distribution to equal mechanical linkage.

It starts with a basic idea of the threshold of motion. At any level of brake force applied to the tire/road interface before it skids, the friction force equals the applied force. And 2wd and 4x4 cars will stop similarly. That holds true until you reach the threshold of motion. The threshold of motion is the point at which the applied force exceeds the maximum static friction - this is where you start to skid. Once you start to skid you are now in a state of kinetic friction with the surface. The the graph at the bottom shows this threshold at different deltas between static and kinetic. On snow and ice the delta is significant. Often 10:1 or greater.

Braking system on most vehicles is friction surfaces actuated by hydraulic pressure. Each tire’s brake operates largely independent of the other tires brakes and the vehicle using software and mechanical systems attempts to apply approximately similar normal force adjusted (weight on the tire) braking force. The idea being if there is a uniform road surface and brake force is adjusted to match the weight on the tire, it'll reach the threshold of motion about the same time as the other tires.

The assumption of uniform surface does not hold in snow and ice conditions. At any given time on snow and ice each tire may have significantly different contact patch conditions with the underlying surface. This would be represented on the graph as having the peak static friction (or threshold of motion) being different for each tire and varying rapidly with time/movement as the tire rolls over the variable snow and ice road surface. And that is something that an ECU cannot know, calculate, or adjust for until a tire has already slipped and the signal from the hall effect sensor in the ABS system registers a slip. (This is why it would require time travel for a current ABS system to match mechanical linkage - it would have to detect actual slip in the future, then adjust before it happens.)

The common rotational velocity deceleration with mechanical linked tires (4x4) means all the tires will decelerate together and importantly they will reach the max static friction at the same time. That's the key to stopping faster in this situation. With uncoupled systems (2wd) the first tire to reach max static friction will slip and then the ABS will flutter about the peak friction point giving some less than full braking force as it slips, releases brake force, tires spins again, re applies brake force, and slips again. My guess is the best systems might reach 70%, but I haven't measured it. Might be 50% might be a bit higher. But it's always below 100%.

So to put some really simplified math in here if you have 4 tires that have 5, 10, 15, 20 as the units of static friction at each of the 4 tires and the kinetic friction is 10%, then the linked 4X4 system can achieve the entire combined 50 units of friction with the surface before slipping. The non-linked system will apply uniform brake force to each tire (not the ground after one type slips). So after all 4 tires reach 5 (20 combined) tire 1 slips and starts to slide. Keep applying more brake and at 10 (31 system) tire two slips. And you can keep going to a max of 15 (33 combined units) before tire 3 slips and you’re going to then drop to about 18 combined units. Peak braking friction force applied to stop the car for the uncoupled car is roughly 33 units. Compared to 50 for the coupled system. Under certain conditions the difference is quite large.

The greater the difference between static and kinetic friction and the greater the variability in the road surface the greater the benefit in braking of the mechanical connection. In some conditions it'll be small. In others it'll be quite large. The above represents a snapshot in time, but actual braking is the integral of summation of every moment along the entire stop. And throughout a stop a vehicle may experience points where it has very uniform surface and points where it's significantly varied between each tire's contact patch. Over a stop where there's half a dozen patches of ice and some dry road and some mixed areas - the stopping distance of the 4x4 will end up measurably shorter.

And that's what you see in basically every test of a mechanically linked 4x4 or awd system vs an ABS system. The worst of all would be uncoupling all of the tires if you could shift the transfer case into N at speed as that would effectively disconnect the two rear wheels from each other.

This also does not apply to clutch based awd systems that are open clutch or any other design that is not a mechanical linkage like the Rav4 hybrid that has two independent drive systems. It only works with a true mechanical linkage. It does not have to have locking differentials, because it's transferring torque from traction to non-traction tires, it works in reverse of applied torque from the engine and open diffs work the same as locked in this case. So an awd limited 4Runner will act the same as it would with the center diff locked under braking.

The complete formula for braking distance with static and kinetic friction includes an integral of 4 subfunctions each with a jump discontinuity that varies in magnitude and point of occurrence, so it's very complicated and it would take me a while to even figure out how to write it out on a forum like this. Adding in an abs functionality would make it even more complicated because we'd have to make a bunch of assumptions about the ABS system, processing speed, etc. Maybe I can hand write and take a picture if someone really needs it for some reason.

I'd just rely on empirical results. - go test it. Best part of this is that we can all test it. Any of us who has a 4x4 4Runner can find an icy parking lot and go try it.
Thank you for the great explanation on why! I found it quite interesting.

From a physics standpoint, how does vehicle weight relate to snow and ice performance? Everything else being equal, would a heavier vehicle perform better or worse than a lighter vehicle. It would seem that heavier would mean increased traction due to the increased force on the tires and surface, but it would also mean more mass to try to stop, turn, etc.
 
There's another related thread here:

Snow and ice settings

I made this post on that thread:

Another important thing to be aware of in snow is driveshaft bind induced understeer. (This warning does not apply to the Limited unless you have locked your center diff.)

Imagine going down a slippery hill in 4H, approaching a sharp turn. You turn the steering wheel. The outside front tire, because it can't turn as much as it needs to, has to slide across the snow. In a turn, the outside front does most of the work. Since it has lost contact with the snow, you continue straight.

The solution is to go slower. The sharper the turn the slower you're going anyways, so there's that. But it's something to be aware of.
 

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