Toyota TurboDiesels in USA

Taking in consideration the constantly increasing oil prices, I think Toyota should reconsider its policy of not selling their worldwide successful, powerful and fuel efficient Common Rail Turbodiesel engines.

Also, the U.S. Government should review its tax policies regarding Diesel fuel, which is a cheaper, less refined byproduct of gasoline.

The U.S. Govt. decided to heavily tax Diesel fuel to discourage citizens from using cars with the noisy, pollutant engines of the 1980's.

But today's diesel is far more efficient, more powerful and less contaminant.

Diesel fuel usually costs 25% less than gasoline, and gives around 25% better fuel economy than an equivalent gasoline engine.

Besides, in a Diesel engine what you save in fuel is dramatically more than the additional cost of the engine.

My TurboDiesel 4Runner, for example, gives 29mpg in Highway driving.

In my country, Diesel is $2.93 per gallon versus Gasoline at $3.86 per gallon.

You do the math.

Decades of diesels in passenger cars

proved that old style diesels don't sell. We've had decades of passenger diesels from MErcedes, Volvo, Peugeot, and VW spewing smoke, loud rattling beasts with no acceleration or get up and go. Then in the 1970s and 1980s GM did what they do best. Build a POS diesel by converting a gas engine. The "diesel" Oldsmobiles and Buicks were absolute junk nad soured the public's perception of diesels.

The current 3/4 and 1 ton truck diesels are amazing. They are quiet and very powerful. WHile older Cummins in Dodge trucks were rattle traps and so loud you could not carry on a conversation standing next to the engine idling, the new 600 Cummins and the latest Duramax diesels are just a tad louder than gas and only roar a bit whne under hard acceleration. They also have gained enough in horsepower to make "get up and go" something to see to believe.

Power? Diesel has 30% better power per unit than gas. It has a huge advantage in torque. That's why diesel engines are smaller yet still powerful. However, will that remain true for a passenger car? WHo knows. DOdge Cummins generate over 300 horses and 610 pounds of torque. It can move a 15,000 pound load in 2nd gear (6 speed manny tranny) at idle. At idle! Just feather the clutch and that truck can pull a house off the foundation.

In fact, I was this close to getting a Dodge diesel for the power, fuel economy (although Dodge diesels have this annoying problem of really good and really bad fuel mileage, but that's one of those Dodge quality problems)

The main thing about diesel engines, a well built one, is durability. They can last and last. Cummins gives an estimate of 350,000 miles in commercial useage before a rebuilt. Many reports of 500,000 to 750,000 in private use before a rebuilt.

Now, would Toyota improt their diesels? Can they conform to US air and pollution standards?

I expect my 4Runner to last 10 years or so. Hopefully, by then Toyota will make their 3/4 ton diesel with hopefully 300 horses nad 700 pounds of torque. a real truck at last.

If gas prices keep rising up and up, I would think we will have a shift in our engines. I don't it will be diesel though. I remember seeing a member from Japan with a 4th generation with the 3.4 V6 engine. We may get smaller engines, engines that use technology to have only half the cylinders working or using a electric power back up (hy-bird). I do think we may get a few diesels, but not a lot.

I remember seeing a Land Cruiser with a 4 cyl in other countries. The market will balance out the problem, not the goverment. We have been getting bigger and bigger engines over the last 20 years. The average car in 1980 had about 100 horse power, in 1990 it had about 150. In 2000 it was 200 or so. I had a 65 HP Civic in 1980, that kind of engine is long gone.

Hear, Hear!

We bought a M-B E320 CDI diesel last fall. It's quiet, has 369 lb/ft of torque and has averaged 32 mpg for the first 10K miles. A couple of months ago, DC conducted a reliability demonstration, running three of these cars on a race track. They averaged 139 mph for 100K miles!

We currently own an '03 4Runner V8, which I use to tow my track car. It returned 15.8 mpg on $3.00/gal premium towing to and from Mt Tremblant this past week.

Toyota, if you'll import a common-rail direct injection turbo diesel 4Runner with at least 500 lb/ft of torque, I'll buy one. Promise!!!

You don't think that the laws of supply and demand would apply to diesel? More diesel vehicles = up goes the prices. Remember taxes play a good part in fuel prices. If the taxes are lost on gasoline, they'll switch to putting it on diesel.

In Australia I ran a 1987 4Runner with a GM 4.2lt 250hp engine with electric fans and LPG gas. It was dirt cheap to run, and was awesome for pulling and wheeling. LPG was like AUS$0.30 and gasoline was AUS$1.15. Oh...it ran on gasoline additonally (two tanks) and you changed over from one fuel to another with the flick of a switch.

They use LPG conversions very widely in my country.
In my country it's even cheaper, because LPG is subsidized (partially paid for by the Govt. to help poor homes reduce their expenses). You turn your car into a moving timebomb.

But Diesel being more expensive than gasoline in the U.S. is like making cotton fabric more expensive than silk due to taxes, or making a hamburger more expensive than a 16Oz Rib Eye Steak due to overweight taxes.

Diesel is less expensive to produce, so it should be cheaper. Diesel engines consume less fuel.

Diesel simply makes sense.

The best analogy I've found to Diesel is fluorescent lamps vs. incandescent bulbs.

Of course, luxury and sports cars will continue to get gasoline engines, but for those of us who don't want to waste those extra dollars, Diesel is more convenient.

Import to US Possible?

Is it possible to order a diesel powered 4runner direectly from Japan for delivery in the US? Can US dealerships "special order" diesel versions? How would we go about doing this?

I don't know about the Toyota diesels, but lots of the others (both cars and trucks) stink like crazy, even under cruising loads, and especially under acceleration.

Funny thing is, some engines stink and others don't, and it's not a simple matter of new vs. old. I was behind a new TDI VW the other day and it was bad. Some other vehicles (cars and even some trucks) aren't too bad.

Of course this is usually not a big deal to the drivers of the diesels but to the vehicles that follow them. Nonetheless it colors the perception of the vehicles.

Also, diesels have lots of torque and are efficient but typically have much narrower powerbands than gas engines. This is even more true of VVT gas engines vs. diesels.

Perhaps a diesel hybrid would make some real sense. I'm sure others know much more than I do in this area.

You gotta convince too many groups to do this...

1) The government needs to release restrictions on diesels from out of country. Many of the diesels from out of country do not meet the current EPA standards in the US and have no plans to do so because the change in the manufacturing process would be too costly for them.

2) The US based refineries would need to add additional refineries to process the raw petroleum to diesel, and since the US government will not subsidize these refineries, it is too costly for them.

3) The big auto manufacturers of the US see diesel for trucks, not for their higher volume sedans and sports cars. The change in retooling the manufacturing facilities would be too costly for them. Remember, Chrysler owns the US patent for the rotary (wankel) engine, but never put it into production because of the cost of retooling.

4) The auto labor unions would never allow this because to be competitive in this area would end the union control of the US auto industry.

5) The EPA would not allow it because the emissions do not meet future EPA guildelines.

Efficiency wise, diesels are better than gasoline engines, but if they mass produce diesels in the US, then diesel fuel would become more expensive and we would be paying at least 4-5 dollars per gallon...

Re: Import to US Possible?

Dr. John said:

Is it possible to order a diesel powered 4runner direectly from Japan for delivery in the US? Can US dealerships "special order" diesel versions? How would we go about doing this?

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Nope. Even if you could get around the gov't regs, Toyota stopped making the hilux surf w/ the 3.0L turbo diesel! Now, you can only get it in Japan w/ the 4.0L V6 or a 4-cyl gasoline version. I believe you can still get the landcruiser 100 in turbo diesel there, and it gets over 20mpg.

Diesel is taxed more heavily than gasoline in the USA. If you've noticed, the pumps often have a tiny sticker on there saying if your vehicle has 3 or more axles (i.e., big rig), you are entitled to a 30 cent rebate per gallon on diesel (at least that's how it is here in AZ). So the Fed taxes only apply to non-commercial users of diesel (i.e., the consumer gets ripped-off again). Somewhere I heard the diesel intended for commercial use, though being the same as for passenger cars/trucks, is colored with a dye, and that's it's supposedly illegal to use that commercial fuel in a passenger car/light truck. Hey, in CA, there's talk by lawmakers of taxing hybrids more since they use a lot less gasoline, causing the state to lose gasoline taxes, and they're trying to make up for the lost revenue!

Re: Re: Import to US Possible?

Jim_Chow said:

Somewhere I heard the diesel intended for commercial use, though being the same as for passenger cars/trucks, is colored with a dye, and that's it's supposedly illegal to use that commercial fuel in a passenger car/light truck.

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True. Being in the land development industry I know the heavy equipment (dozers, loaders, graders etc.) use this and the fuel is dyed and sold much cheaper. Also many have been caught using it in their pickups, which is illegal.

Dyed Fuel


Actually, the diesel fuel that contains dye is legal for "off road" use only. This includes trains, bulldozers, generators, refrigerators in truck trailers, earthmovers, backhoes, etc., etc.
On-road diesel is the same stuff -- which is used in buses, heavy-duty semi trucks, pickup trucks such as the F-350 diesel, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks and even passenger cars that use diesel fuel (VW Jetta, Mercedes diesels, etc., etc.). You'll sometimes see it referred to as Auto Diesel or #2 Diesel.

Home heating oil - chemically similar to diesel fuel - is also dyed because a few unscrupulous truckers were filling their tanks with untaxed heating oil in lieu of expensive diesel fuel. When you take 300 gallons to fill your tanks, 40 or 50 cents a gallon adds up quickly!

The "off road" dyed fuel is not taxed (and is thus about 50 cents a gallon cheaper), but does have a higher sulfur content than 'on-road' diesel fuel. Off-road fuel also lacks certain additives that help keep injectors clean and prevent the fuel from turning to gel in the winter months. On-road diesel engines made after 1993 are designed for low-sulfur fuel and the "dirty" stuff might gum up the works if used often. It could also affect the electronics or engine management systems that are part of any diesel engine made in the past decade.

Having more diesel-powered vehicles is a huge logistical problem for the USA, and our diesel fuel is not as "clean" as the stuff sold in Europe. Also, as mentioned before, our tax structure is different. Diesel fuel does burn very "clean" in many ways, offers longevity and less maintenance (no spark plugs, distributor, ignition, etc., etc.).......but exhaust particulates are still a problem.

As for "rebates" on fuel tax, Arizona might be different, but we certainly don't get any price breaks for commercial use here in VA. Diesel fuel is taxed higher than gasoline, although it is often cheaper at the pump.

There are other ramifications - both economic and environmental - that would arise from a 1/3 increase in the amount of diesel fuel burned. Heck....I am sure the cost of gasoline would be affected because of changes that would happen at the refinery level.

I wonder if the the availability of a diesel 4runner will change once the EPA ultra low sulfur fuel requirements go into place on Jun 1, 2006.

Interesting, but how come Diesel fuel is cheaper in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY outside the U.S., INCLUDING CANADA?

boston_kevin said:

You gotta convince too many groups to do this...

1) The government needs to release restrictions on diesels from out of country. Many of the diesels from out of country do not meet the current EPA standards in the US and have no plans to do so because the change in the manufacturing process would be too costly for them.

2) The US based refineries would need to add additional refineries to process the raw petroleum to diesel, and since the US government will not subsidize these refineries, it is too costly for them.

3) The big auto manufacturers of the US see diesel for trucks, not for their higher volume sedans and sports cars. The change in retooling the manufacturing facilities would be too costly for them. Remember, Chrysler owns the US patent for the rotary (wankel) engine, but never put it into production because of the cost of retooling.

4) The auto labor unions would never allow this because to be competitive in this area would end the union control of the US auto industry.

5) The EPA would not allow it because the emissions do not meet future EPA guildelines.

Efficiency wise, diesels are better than gasoline engines, but if they mass produce diesels in the US, then diesel fuel would become more expensive and we would be paying at least 4-5 dollars per gallon...

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Offroader said:

Interesting, but how come Diesel fuel is cheaper in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY outside the U.S., INCLUDING CANADA?

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Most countries standardized on refining the raw petroleum to diesel not gasoline, so their costs are lower. Also, the EPA does not enforce emissions outside of the US, so the refineries do not have to meet the more strict standards.

It is much cheaper to refine the raw petroleum to diesel... No question about that, even if they had to meet the EPA standards. The problem is that is costs too much money to build new refineries to do this (also the reason why gasoline is not more common in other countries). Also, gasoline refineries are much more sensitive to fire and sparks, which most countries don't want the risk. Diesel fuel is hard to ignite which makes it safer to work with.

Diesel was (and still is) the staple for so many countries because of the effiency and power of the diesel engine. Not to mention that it takes a serious effort to destroy a diesel engine internally, and there is little maintenance required (no plugs, distributor, etc).

Again, not true.
The reason in the U.S. is environmental TAXES.

Otherwise, how come you have cheap diesel for home heating, big trucks and agriculture.

Most countries don't run on Diesel alone. I live in a third world country, and consume considerably more gasoline than Diesel, yet premium gasoline is $4.31 and premium Diesel is $2.93.

boston_kevin said:

Most countries standardized on refining the raw petroleum to diesel not gasoline, so their costs are lower. Also, the EPA does not enforce emissions outside of the US, so the refineries do not have to meet the more strict standards.

It is much cheaper to refine the raw petroleum to diesel... No question about that, even if they had to meet the EPA standards. The problem is that is costs too much money to build new refineries to do this (also the reason why gasoline is not more common in other countries). Also, gasoline refineries are much more sensitive to fire and sparks, which most countries don't want the risk. Diesel fuel is hard to ignite which makes it safer to work with.

Diesel was (and still is) the staple for so many countries because of the effiency and power of the diesel engine. Not to mention that it takes a serious effort to destroy a diesel engine internally, and there is little maintenance required (no plugs, distributor, etc).

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diesel! diesel! diesel!

You guys are forgetting Biodiesel!

I own a 99 6cyl 4r w/151k

our business owns an 05 dodge ram 2500 w/ the cummins 5.9L turbo diesel. I run a 50% blend of biodiesel/highway diesel whenever I can find a bio station. Runs great! Last time I filled up with bio, it was $3.06 vs. $3.30 dino juice. Smells like french fries. Emissions are not a problem since there's 0% sulfur in the soybean based biodiesel.

I came on here tonight to find out some info on either importing a diesel 4r or any skunkworks 4r hybrid coming up.

Bio diesel will be our fuel of the future in the United States... or... a biodiesel hybrid!