$10K KDSS Repair!!

[Jetboy]

If braided steel lines can fail on my water heater in 12 years (lines that do not flex daily, and are only subject to line pressures of 60 PSI) I imagine they can fail in automobiles a lot sooner. Rust was not even a factor. Pinholes in the underlying rubber.

For hard pipe, ask any plumber why do pipes leak in the middle where there’s not even a joint? Corrosion from the inside. No visible rust may be present upon observation. I’m thinking some sort of galvanic reaction?

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Kind of apples and oranges here. The lines on KDSS are pretty different from the lines on your water heater. They're closer to an oversized brake line. The soft line portion is short. Most of the KDSS line system is rigid stainless steel. Just like the brake lines. I wouldn't be surprised if it's all the same material just scaled up for the fluid volume KDSS requires. Brake lines can wear through, or fail for other reasons like metal fatigue from flexing. But it's pretty darn rare for that to happen. Replacing flexible brake hoses isn't a common maintenance item and they typically last for the life of the vehicle. KDSS lines should be the same way. And it seems to be for the vast majority of Land cruisers and 4Runners.

In the case of stainless steel and aluminum together, aluminum will be the anode so the aluminum will corrode, not the stainless. I suspect that's the case in the corrosion examples I've seen on KDSS systems. Add enough electrolyte and water and the aluminum will start to corrode.

Without seeing the actual problem it's pretty much impossible to tell what's going on in this case.

It would be nice if Toyota built an easy way to flush the fluid like they did on the LX570 AHC. I don't know that that helps a lot for longevity though. There are so few problems with KDSS or AHC that there's really no way to tell which one is more reliable.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Can I interest you in an X-REAS system [emoji23][emoji23]


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[CutthroatSlam]

We really like our Kdss. OP has 220k miles in the rust belt. Probably not many of the competition vehicles from 2010 still on the road in high salt use areas.

Just not seeing the cost/reward benefit. Downside risk of costly repairs. Upside is that corners with less body sway at 70 mph….err wrong vehicle for that use anyway.

 

[chrisridebike8]

for that price, I think I would look into an aftermarket setup like Currie Antirock. And I'm not sure if it works, but it looks like there are threaded holes up front where the non-KDSS sway bar would bolt up. And then you could maybe get someone to fab up the mounts for the rear sway bar. Just get rid of the system all together

 

[bayaz]

Hi all, Our local Toyota dealer quoted me $10,000 to fix the KDSS system on my 2010 4R Trail, with 220K miles. The KDSS light comes on now and then, and they said it was very rusty (salty upper Midwest roads) and leaking slightly from the unit. The $10K is to replace the unit and all four lines. Does this sound right to you? Many thanks for sharing your insights!!

Spoke about KDSS wear and replacement at my local dealer in California. He said that once it fails it can’t really be fixed but has to be replaced. Also, KDSS has finite life, so 220k miles is a good run. Dealer Said they just did it and it was about $4k, but could be more because it’s very labor intensive (about $2k in parts and $2k in labor). A viable alternative he suggested is asking the dealer to remove KDSS. It’s cheaper and gives you more aftermarket options.

 

[jasxn]

Just not seeing the cost/reward benefit. Downside risk of cost repairs. Upside is it corners with less body sway at 70 mph….err wrong vehicle for that use anyway.

lol i like to hit my corners hard. kdss gives me confidence lol.
but i've been in a 3rd gen with the sways pulled. omg it was the scariest experience. i swear i thought we were going to tip over all the time lol.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

That seems a little excessive... when you say "unit" what are you referring to?

There's a cylinder front and rear, a central pump/valve assembly, and the lines in-between all of them. If your vehicle is as rusty as you say, it wouldn't surprise me if they've quoted every single bracket, bolt, retaining clip, etc. along with additional labor to Sawzall and torch things off. Still seems a bit high for all that, but I haven't priced out a KDSS system or looked into the labor for replacing the entire system.

One horribly rusty Sequoia I worked on needed a Sawzall and our oxy-acetylene torch to remove the old shocks, brake lines, and other bits (they spent way too much money on this thing when it should have been junked). Much of the brake system, power steering lines, and such including brackets were zip-tied to the frame or strapped because the frame had holes or was soft in spots.

 

[RAVL 2016]

There is always more to these stories.

What they are telling you with that price is they don’t want to do the work/. The truck is too rusty and they don’t want the headache associated with taking it apart and having problems for which they will be responsible. So instead of telling you that they give you a high price to send you somewhere else.

Unfortunately frame rust is an issue on all these trucks as they age/. Have some friends who live in Pittsburgh and the cars and trucks there last about 10 years max even with good care. Just too much continuous salt.

 

[ovmiowa]

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. On a few people's advice, I took the vehicle to a Lexus dealer. The KDSS warning light turned off on the hour-long drive to the Lexus dealer. They found an older stored code C1851, "Low Pressure Malfunction in KDSS system". They believe the KDSS valve may have been stuck and worked its way free. So for now, I will wait and see what happens next. I do park my 4Runner on a non-level surface.

 

[RobS10]

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. On a few people's advice, I took the vehicle to a Lexus dealer. The KDSS warning light turned off on the hour-long drive to the Lexus dealer. They found an older stored code C1851, "Low Pressure Malfunction in KDSS system". They believe the KDSS valve may have been stuck and worked its way free. So for now, I will wait and see what happens next. I do park my 4Runner on a non-level surface.

Did the Lexus dealer give you an idea how much it would cost to fix had the valve stayed stuck, just to compare to the other estimate?

 

[redshift83]

I did a good bit of research on KDSS when i bought my '10 Trail and initially panicked because of the costs people were being quoted. After reading up on it though, it's really just a hydraulic system and really isn't more complicated than brakes.

There are procedures that outline how to bleed all the actuators and the accumulator and the worst part of it is the need for a hydraulic (either hand operated like the original Toyota service tool, or air over hydraulic like it's replacement..I'm guessing techs' arms got tired, lol). There was even a video out there on YT from someone that showed the process over on ih8mud.com, but apparently YT removed the account. That person even used ATF instead of the super expensive AHC fluid. I'd probably spend the extra $$ myself if i was doing it but that's me.

Point is, it's not voodoo, and can be serviced by humans. I think the Toyota dealers don't have the service tools because they never see it and that is why they charge so much. I've also heard Lexus dealers won't work on Toyotas typically too, but apparently they did in this case which is good news.
Fortunately, my 4r is relatively rust free and gets coated yearly, including removing the KDSS accumulator skid plate, cleaning it, then spraying down the accumulator with fluidfilm or similar. This is CRITICAL to keeping the system working for a long time, imo. The accumulators seem to be the most common failure point and it always seems to be due to corrosion. The actuators can also leak sometimes, but there's not a ton of preventative maintenance you can do to fix that.

I hope my KDSS lasts the life of my 4r, but if it doesn't and i'm faced with a 4k bill you can bet i'm going to try to fix it myself. I will also make a super detailed thread about how i did it so others can also save money in the future.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

There is always more to these stories.

What they are telling you with that price is they don’t want to do the work/. The truck is too rusty and they don’t want the headache associated with taking it apart and having problems for which they will be responsible. So instead of telling you that they give you a high price to send you somewhere else.

Unfortunately frame rust is an issue on all these trucks as they age/. Have some friends who live in Pittsburgh and the cars and trucks there last about 10 years max even with good care. Just too much continuous salt.

Problem is that customers don't like hearing their vehicle isn't worth fixing or that a technician/shop can't give them a definitive repair quote on their barely held together vehicle. We've gotten into this argument with customers too often, so we just waste our time documenting everything, pricing it out, and giving it to the customer. Hard to argue with numbers and pictures most of the time.

There is plenty of times if love to just P&A "[x1] Road Flare [x5] Gal, Gasoline" for the customer than waste 2hrs documenting everything wrong with their vehicle and then wasting my part's department's time quoti g out a 15k repair bill on a 20yr old 300k vehicle that just needs to be put out of it's misery and saved from it's neglectful owner.

 

[RAVL 2016]

Problem is that customers don't like hearing their vehicle isn't worth fixing or that a technician/shop can't give them a definitive repair quote on their barely held together vehicle. We've gotten into this argument with customers too often, so we just waste our time documenting everything, pricing it out, and giving it to the customer. Hard to argue with numbers and pictures most of the time.

There is plenty of times if love to just P&A "[x1] Road Flare [x5] Gal, Gasoline" for the customer than waste 2hrs documenting everything wrong with their vehicle and then wasting my part's department's time quoti g out a 15k repair bill on a 20yr old 300k vehicle that just needs to be put out of it's misery and saved from it's neglectful owner.

You make a good point and what you said makes sense (and gave a good chuckle). Thank you for that perspective. My original inclination here, fwiw, is to be sympathetic to the shop. They don't want to argue with the customer but they don't want to do the work either because it is too much of a headache.

 

[Brandonium]

Do you own a 4Runner with KDSS or is this just a knee jerk reaction to a post about someone having a KDSS issue on one out of how many 4Runners currently on the road that are equipped with KDSS?

KDSS is definitely off the list of options on the next 4Runner.

 

[Mike Beyers]

Problem is that customers don't like hearing their vehicle isn't worth fixing or that a technician/shop can't give them a definitive repair quote on their barely held together vehicle. We've gotten into this argument with customers too often, so we just waste our time documenting everything, pricing it out, and giving it to the customer. Hard to argue with numbers and pictures most of the time.

There is plenty of times if love to just P&A "[x1] Road Flare [x5] Gal, Gasoline" for the customer than waste 2hrs documenting everything wrong with their vehicle and then wasting my part's department's time quoti g out a 15k repair bill on a 20yr old 300k vehicle that just needs to be put out of it's misery and saved from it's neglectful owner.

It has to become a safety concern eventually. My guess is that some shops just will not go down the road to hell that one of these repairs can become.

 

[Grug556]

Best thing I ever did was take a huge set of bolt cutters and chopped the whole xreas hydraulic system, shocks, lines and cylinders to bits..

Watch out for the oil spray otherwise far easier than ****ing around with flare nut wrenches on old rusty shit.

 

[chompster4runner]

Love my KDSS.

 

[BearBio]

KISS!!!!

Keep it simple!

One reason I like my nice and simple SR5 Premium!

 

[CutthroatSlam]

Do you own a 4Runner with KDSS or is this just a knee jerk reaction to a post about someone having a KDSS issue on one out of how many 4Runners currently on the road that are equipped with KDSS?

No, simply evaluating next 4Runner purchase. Keep it simple prevails once again.

How about you? I assume you are pregnant with a 4Runner that has KDSS.

 

[Brandonium]

Nope, not at all. Have had KDSS since 2016 so I know what I am working with. Own the product so can speak to it. Many people in this forum who have never owned said product make generalized statements as though a few issues within these walls paint said product in a certain way.

Some 4runners also have needle bearing issues. Perhaps a 2WD (simpler than 4wD) would spare you from this potential nightmare also?

No, simply evaluating next 4Runner purchase. Keep it simple prevails once again.

How about you? I assume you are pregnant with a 4Runner that has KDSS.