2004 vs 2005 V8???

[Pwrl3ss]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and not quite yet an owner of a 4Runner. I'm considering buying one but I am uncertain as to whether I should wait for the 2005 models with the new V8 or jump on a deal for a 2004 model.

What I'm currently looking at is a 2004 SR5 4X4-V8. What is keeping me from buying though is the fact that the 2005 now is rated at 270/330(I think).

My question is would there be a real noticeable difference in performance between the two V8's? Is the extra 35hp worth an extra $1000+.

Thanks

JT

 

[4RNR-LOVN]

JT, only you can answer that question. Some would say to hold off on buying early models as the VVT-i is new to the iForce V8 but Toyota has worked with this technology for years and they certainly get it right the first time more than any other auto mfr. In fact, it's been in the 4.0 V6 since introduction. It also depends on what you will be using the V8 for (around town or pulling something). If it's the latter I would say get the '05. Additional power is always better and it will probably bring a little higher resale value down the road but who knows.

 

[peter78]

We have discused this before. See links below. As I understand it, the horse power will come in the higher revs, most of the time you won't feel it. Chances are it will be more than $1,000 if you figure getting a 04 at the end of the year. My 2 cents would be, if you are keeping the 4Runner for over 8 years, it won't matter if you get a 04 or 05 at the time of trade in. But if you trade every 3 to 4 years a new model may be the way to go.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=5645&highlight=2005

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=5211&highlight=2005

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=5341&highlight=2005

 

[Cliff s]

With the V8's not being available until the
end of the year, the 04' V8's are getting
scarce. I don't think the dealers are really
going to deal on them.

Since the 05' V8's are delayed when they
do arrive there will be a pent up demand
and the dealers know that, so again they
are not going to deal.

You will not get any kind of deal now until
about April or May.

The old story of supply and demand.

Cliff s

 

[pnokeo]

Hi,

I am also interested in the '05 Ltd V8. Does anyone know if '05 has any interior changes?

Thanks!

 

[Good Times]

v6 05's are out so check them out on the dealer lot.

as for the v8's for the 05, they're due jan but word is that it might be out early as november. (cross those fingers).

personally speaking, i'd just get the 05 v8 but that's me. yeah vvti engine will be new and might have issues but i highly doubt that they'll have any problems. it's just a head replacement anyway so don't worry.

hold off for the v8 05 if you're planning on getting a v8.

as for deals, if you're not getting 04's for way under invoice and i mean way under invoice then you're getting screwed. new 05's are being sold for 450-500 over invoice. do keep in mind that once you buy that 04, you lose out on the 1st year depreciation the instant it goes onto the street (1st year depreciation is alot so factor that in when you buy an 04 vs an 05.

good luck

 

[Pwrl3ss]

Thanks for the feedback...

The 2004 SR5 V8 I've been looking at are about $1600 below invoice at Carmax (not sure how accurate that is). But what is really holding me back is the new V8 with VVTi.

More newbie questions :

1. Someone mentioned the extra horsepower kicks in at a higher RPM (not sure if I said that right); does that really make a difference when you're cruising around 70-75mph? Or does the extra hp make more of a difference across the entire range?

2. Also, is another extra 10/lbs of torque that significant?

3. VVTi - will that make the new V8 more fuel efficient?

Thanks again!

 

[Kanab]

I would just order the 05, the increase in MPG will be worth the wait. Check out the new Sequoia's that are out with the new VVTi engines, go drive one and then drive an 04 Sequoia with the 235 HP V8 and see how it feels. Also note that the Sequoia rates the 05 as saving a couple of MPG over the 04. This Sequoia comparison might give you an insight into the 04/05 4runner differents.

 

[Cliff s]

Here are some facts about VVT( I owned a motor shop for years and built many
a race car motor).

What VVT does, is advance the intake lobe of the camshafts with RPM. This
adds more overlap to the profile and increases scavaging during overlap which
makes more top end HP(above 3000 rpm). If you advance the intake under
about 3000 rpm all you do is reduce the motor HP, you might notice that race
cars idle at 1500 rpm because they just won't run any slower, this happens when you
increase the overlap.

What VVT does is run normal cam timing under 3000 rpm and then slowly advance the
cam timing with rpm. This gives more peak HP and HP sells. In practice your motor
rpms seldom run above 2500 so effectively the VVT does nothing in normal operation.

Cliff s

 

[Kanab]

Cliff, good post, now why does Toyota show that the VVTi engines get a couple of MPG better mileage?

 

[Cliff s]

Probably the same reason that the mileage readout on the dash is about 2 mph
higher than your actual milage.

As most have found out the advertised mileage has little to do with the actual mileage
you get in your normal driving.

Technically mileage is a pretty complicated subject. There are certain compromises that are made, and of course the manfacturers take advantage of them.

Basically with VVT, you can computer tweak more of the operating parameters and maybe come up with a little better efficiency. I suppose they could of back off on the low speed timing to get a little better economy. Since all the parameters of a motor are now computer controlled, improved programming could easily make the difference.

The only way you can measure a motors effeciency is with a dyno run and measure the B.M.E.P(Brake Mean Effective Pressure) vs fuel consumption, usually in lbs of fuel per minute.

When measuring fuel economy it will depend of rear axle ratio and transmission gear ratio to put the motor at its most efficient rpm. This is modified by certain corrections. Even changing the shift points on the transmission will effect the mileage.

Actually VVT has been around for at least 50 years. It was used to move the power points around on race cars, certain tracks like more low end and others more high end power. Racing associations soon found out about this and outlawed it.

Cliff s

 

[4RNR-LOVN]

Also note that the Sequoia rates the 05 as saving a couple of MPG over the 04.

Why does Toyota show that the VVTi engines get a couple of MPG better mileage?

The mileage increase in the Sequoia is due to the tranny change from a 4 speed to a 5 speed. They haven't stated the new mileage for the V8 4Runner but I would be very suprised if there is a change.

 

[bulldog-yota]

cliff good explanation.

I would like to add a little to it and disagree a bit. When engineers design an engine they need to decide what parametrs it will work under and what they have to play with.

cam profile/timing is very important as it normally determines the torque curve of the engine. the good old question of do you want power low down or high up. normally they settle for something in between as that is where most people use the engine.

with vvt it gives them the option on manipulating the cam timing a bit more. so they can effectively stretch the torque curve a bit. the more torque you can generate higher up the more HP you have, if you keep the torque flat at higher rpm you get more HP. But it gives you the option to create a bit more low down torque as well. Until I see the actual torque curves of the new V8, my suspicion is that they focussed more on getting hgh end power. However they did get a bit more low end torque, the peak torque figure is 10 lb/ft more at the SAME rpm.

SO I believe there will be more power at 2000 rpm, but not likely to be noticed to the seat of the pants dyno. However it probably allowed them to tweak some other parameters a bit for slightly better MPG.

but cliff as you said in reality most people will only notice the high end power increase.

ok enough geek discussion

 

[bulldog-yota]

back to original discussion

if it was me. I would wait for the 05 V8 and till they give me a good price. better power, better resale value and the everlasting "I should have waited" feeling.

money in the bank earns interest and you can always get the 4R whenever you want.

go with that attitude to the dealer. if they dont make you happy with a great price on an 04 they can jump in the lake. lance stated that 05's can be had for 500 over invoice, so at least 1500 below invoice sounds more interesting for an 04.

If you can wait, wait unless they give you a killer deal.