2005 4WD V6 4_Runner with 84,000 mi. catalyitic converter failure - Advice please!

[Major SNAFU]

The title says it all.

I bought it with 5K on it from a dealership. Bought the extended 6-year, 100K warranty but the converters are NOT covered because it is only the "Gold" plan.

(From now on when I buy warranties I am only going to demand a list of what isn't covered I don't care what is.)

This is a really frustrating problem. I traded away my Tahoe for the 4Runner because of pressure to get something more economical. I will not buy/drive anything that isn't built on a truck-chassis.

Over time, I came to like the 4RUnner 90% of the time. The anti-slip logic frustrated me often in deep snow when sometimes you just have to go all out, but no biggie. Only on major family trips was the vehicle too small. We wound up having to take both the 4-Runner and the Rav on every major trip because of this (so much for improved gas mileage).

But I came to like the vehicle over all and had settled my mind to drive it into the ground. But now this has happened and I need some serious advice.

There are 4 converters on this thing and 2 have gone bad. Dealer wants $2K to replace them, another shop will do it for about $1500K. Too much money for a 6-year old vehicle with 2 more converters that I have to assume are on the brink as well.

Because it shows up as a engine fault, it also disables all of the traction control. Thank goodness is isn't winter right now or I would be really screwed.

So, what to do? Based on friends who have 4Runners, I was expecting an easy 150000 miles before any major problems. If I have these problems at 84000, I am reluctant to pour money into a potential money-pit.

I am also disinclined to get another one. Every GMC truck I have owned hit the 150000k mark with ease without any major fault.

Also, one other observation is that I would like to make, since I track the mileage of all our vehicles constantly is this. Yes, the 4-Runner got as high as 26 mpg on the highway - with only me and no load on it. Put the canoe and other things on top of it and the best you could do was 21 mpg. Ad the headwinds going west across Ohio and I have recorded as low as 14 mpg with only 4 people and luggage and a bag on top.

The point is that my Tahoe, with the 350 V8 got 20-21 mpg on the highway, all of the time. Canoe, load whatever. Unless I hooked on a 2000 lbs or more trailer, the thing was a rock.

So is the 4_runner or something like it really more economical over the long run?

I am not trying to troll, I need advice and data from more knowledgeable 4_Runner users that am I.

Thanks in advance.

 

[chaz]

id try s a private shop instead of the dealer which will cost more, but depending on code, it may be just the o2 sensor/s this is for 3rd gen but might help . http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/60196-00-needs-new-cats-help.html

 

[Major SNAFU]

id try s a private shop instead of the dealer which will cost more, but depending on code, it may be just the o2 sensor/s this is for 3rd gen but might help . http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/60196-00-needs-new-cats-help.html

Hi and thanks for the link.

I want to be clear that this is less about the money and more about I do not want to start putting money into this vehicle at this low mileage. My experience is that once a vehicle starts eating money, it doesn't end until you get rid of the vehicle.

The dealership ran the tests, and I asked about the O2 sensor. They said is was the main Cat and one other one, but maybe just the main cat.

Here is what the report on the dealer service sheet says:

Code P0430 is set. Cat efficiency bank 2 code
Need new cat to fix. parts not it stock (never are, are they?)
installed $1927.20 plus tax for both cats.


It was explained to me that this in only 1/2 of the cats on the vehicle as well.

Now, if they should have tired replacing the O2 sensor and sent me back out, or if this was an option, then this is a mark against them in my book.

When anyone comes to me with a vehicle with this low of mileage and says it needs $2,000.00 of work, the thoughts in my mind aren't "How am I going to pay for this?", it is "Well, time for a new vehicle and not another one of these." That is pretty poor customer handling (I have been in sales and now am in marketing) and sure as heck isn't the way to cultivate a repeat customer. I put it on par with telling someone they have cancer when you aren't' bloody well certain that they do indeed have cancer.

If I have someone replace the O2 sensor now and it fixes it, I won't ever take it back to that dealer again.

So I really hope you are wrong, but I will call the manager and go through this with him.

 

[BigEd]

Doesn't the Sulfer TSB replace the cat's? Can't he take it to a dealer (maybe a different one) and bring it in complaining of sulfer smell?

 

[oblivionis]

I had one catalytic converter go out at about 100K. It cost me $1200 to have it replaced (along with oxygen sensor) at the dealer. I was very dissapointed too but I'm hoping it will be worth it in the long run if I keep the truck for few more years without any problems.

 

[John619]

I would try to price a used set from a wrecking yard.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I wrote a lengthy post on an older thread about diagnosing catalytic converters, I'll have to find it later and link it. But basically the only way to validate a catalytic converter is to do an intrusive test (drilling a small hole, using a 4 or preferably 5 gas analyzer and seeing what is going on inside the cat) or if it has physically failed. (melted, disitigrated, ect.)

I will tell you right now, most of the time the dealership is going to call for new cats because they don't want you to come back because the sensors are not the answer.

Do you have any issues with engine performance? Misfires, uneven idle, ect? The vehicle sounds like it is in good running condition, I would venture to guess that it is unlikely that the catalytic converters are bad. They only go bad if something in the engine causes them to become damaged, catalytic converters should last the life of the vehicle (or as I see, more likely 150K~200k range for most).

I would look into the Sulfer TSB and see if you can find a dealership willing to work with you on that, in the mean time insist they put new sensors first before doing anything else.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Most if not all car manufacturers use the same testing parameters for catalytic converter efficiency, they will use a Pre-Cat O2 or AFR Sensor and a Post-Cat O2 sensor to measure the effective "oxygen storage" and from that it gives its result on what it thinks the catalytic converter's health is. That's it plain and simple, the ECU will look at Pre-Cat O2 levels and then Post-Cat O2 levels to determine if the catalytic converter is actually working. This presents a small plethora of possible problems and scenarios ranging from complete catalytic converter failure to biased O2 Sensors. The reality is that this is nothing more than a Go, No Go test, because the catalytic converter does not deal only in O2. The only proper and 100% accurate way to test a catalytic converter's efficiency is to preform an intrusive test, where you drill into the cat and use a 4 or 5 gas analyzer to verify functionality. But, most people don't want to drill into the cat and most customers don't like that idea either...

In any case, if one of these codes is tripped you should always assume an "innocent until proven guilty" frame of mind towards the problem. First test the O2 sensors individually and then compare to what the scantool is providing as information. After verifying that the sensors are working properly and that the scantool data is in-line with the sensors I would hook up a 4 or 5 gas analyzer to the exhaust and measure the gases. This won't give you a 100% accurate view of what is going on, but it will help you figure out what the catalytic converter is doing. Without going deeply into the operation and chemical reactions that occur inside of the catalytic converter, the gases will vary according to what is actually happening. For example, if your catalytic converter was working well there would be little Oxygen coming out the tailpipe because it is used in reaction to modify quantities of NOx, CO, CO2, and HC. Keep in mind also that the catalytic converter is NOT the problem, a catalytic converter should last the life of the vehicle or at the very least a whole hell of a lot longer than most people will keep the vehicle. If the vehicle is operating as it is supposed to your catalytic converter should not fail prematurely, this is a SYMPTOM of another problem, not a problem in it self. Something to keep in mind when dealing with these codes/repairs, because I have seen guys slap a set of sensors and cats on a car and have it come back with the same problem months down the line because the real problem trashed the cats again.

There are other things to consider, such as if the vehicle has been driven with faulty sensors for a long time sustained damage to the catalytic converter may have occurred and it will need to be replaced anyways. The sensors may have damaged the cat but it could be "brought back to life." I have seen catalytic converters be brought back to life before, but really its a 50/50 shot in the dark.

And yes I realize this is an old thread, but it was something that I felt should be cleared up since the two gentlemen who were mechanics ended up bickering more than really trying to help the poster.

Here are some links:
HowStuffWorks "How Catalytic Converters Work"
http://www.converterwarehouse.com/te...rter-&News=100
Catalytic Converter Tech Tips : Catalytic Converter Replacement : ConverterWarehouse.com
All Catalytic Converters - How do I know if my catalytic converter is defective?

This is the post I made in response to an old thread I came accross: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/61631-catalitic-converter-lifespan.html

 

[Major SNAFU]

I wrote a lengthy post on an older thread about diagnosing catalytic converters, I'll have to find it later and link it. But basically the only way to validate a catalytic converter is to do an intrusive test (drilling a small hole, using a 4 or preferably 5 gas analyzer and seeing what is going on inside the cat) or if it has physically failed. (melted, disitigrated, ect.)

I will tell you right now, most of the time the dealership is going to call for new cats because they don't want you to come back because the sensors are not the answer.

Do you have any issues with engine performance? Misfires, uneven idle, ect? The vehicle sounds like it is in good running condition, I would venture to guess that it is unlikely that the catalytic converters are bad. They only go bad if something in the engine causes them to become damaged, catalytic converters should last the life of the vehicle (or as I see, more likely 150K~200k range for most).

I would look into the Sulfer TSB and see if you can find a dealership willing to work with you on that, in the mean time insist they put new sensors first before doing anything else.

The vehicle has not given me a single problem until now. I think an O2 sensor might have been replaced last year, but it might also have been the Rav. Is has no problems starting, running or idling. All maintenance has been done at the dealership at the recommended times.

Now I am also concerned about how long this would take to resolve. I travel a fair amount and having to go back to the dealer again and again to get this sorted does not excite me.

Can someone explain this sulfur thing a bit more? Won't they test-drive it and notice that there is nothing?

Thanks for listing out all of the steps needed to test, but I would need to rely on the dealership (or another one) to do all of this. Is it likely that I could take this list in and tell them that I want all of this done and that they will do it? How much is it going to run me in time and labor to have all of this done and then perhaps still need to replace the cats?

What is the right threshold to decide to go with a different vehicle?

I am thinking about calling the service manager and asking how cofident he feels this diagnosis is that that Toyota is on the edge of loosing a customer if the cats have truly failed just to see what their response is.

 

[Dogwood]

The title says it all.

I bought it with 5K on it from a dealership. Bought the extended 6-year, 100K warranty but the converters are NOT covered because it is only the "Gold" plan.

(From now on when I buy warranties I am only going to demand a list of what isn't covered I don't care what is.)

This is a really frustrating problem. I traded away my Tahoe for the 4Runner because of pressure to get something more economical. I will not buy/drive anything that isn't built on a truck-chassis.

Over time, I came to like the 4RUnner 90% of the time. The anti-slip logic frustrated me often in deep snow when sometimes you just have to go all out, but no biggie. Only on major family trips was the vehicle too small. We wound up having to take both the 4-Runner and the Rav on every major trip because of this (so much for improved gas mileage).

But I came to like the vehicle over all and had settled my mind to drive it into the ground. But now this has happened and I need some serious advice.

There are 4 converters on this thing and 2 have gone bad. Dealer wants $2K to replace them, another shop will do it for about $1500K. Too much money for a 6-year old vehicle with 2 more converters that I have to assume are on the brink as well.

Because it shows up as a engine fault, it also disables all of the traction control. Thank goodness is isn't winter right now or I would be really screwed.

So, what to do? Based on friends who have 4Runners, I was expecting an easy 150000 miles before any major problems. If I have these problems at 84000, I am reluctant to pour money into a potential money-pit.

I am also disinclined to get another one. Every GMC truck I have owned hit the 150000k mark with ease without any major fault.

Also, one other observation is that I would like to make, since I track the mileage of all our vehicles constantly is this. Yes, the 4-Runner got as high as 26 mpg on the highway - with only me and no load on it. Put the canoe and other things on top of it and the best you could do was 21 mpg. Ad the headwinds going west across Ohio and I have recorded as low as 14 mpg with only 4 people and luggage and a bag on top.

The point is that my Tahoe, with the 350 V8 got 20-21 mpg on the highway, all of the time. Canoe, load whatever. Unless I hooked on a 2000 lbs or more trailer, the thing was a rock.

So is the 4_runner or something like it really more economical over the long run?

I am not trying to troll, I need advice and data from more knowledgeable 4_Runner users that am I.

Thanks in advance.

What year was your Tahoe?

 

[MikeInNH]

I've seen MANY mechanics replace perfectly good catalytic converters when the actual problem was the O2 sensor. An bad O2 sensor will give a reading that when you look it up says the catalytic converter is bad. A GOOD mechanic will do further testing to determine if it's actually the catalytic converter or the O2 sensor.

As for going to the dealer....There are some very good aftermarket converters at much cheaper cost....I'd NEVER go to the dealer for something like this. Way too expensive.

As for getting a used one...By law you can't. A used catalytic converter is NOT allowed to be installed.

Every GMC truck I have owned hit the 150000k mark with ease without any major fault.

My last GMC truck was junk at 100k miles. I started putting MAJOR money into it starting at 80k miles. It was costing me more money in lost wages to keep that truck running...I sold it at little over 100k miles. My next vehicle (1990 Pathfinder)...It's first hickup was around 210k miles......Sold it in 98 to buy a new Pathfinder when it finally had about 320k miles....Put less then $1000 into it beyond normal maintenance....I was well into OVER $2000 on my GMC pickup before it reached 100k miles

 

[Byznyrn]

Ask a Service Manager at your local dealer to contact their Toyota Rep to see if they can goodwill a Federal 8/80 Emissions warranty...

 

[08SilverB]

re

Wow, a total of 4 Catalytic Converter's on the 4th generation 4-Runner's...

Following this post I noticed a point came up no one else has expanded on...

Someone mentioned IF a Converter goes bad there's usually a reason why. Catalytic Converter's very seldom just go bad on there own.

With that said, what Engine problem's could cause a Converter to not function properly? The 02 Sensor's have been mentioned several times but what other Mechanical thing's can cause a Cat to fail and need replaced?


Concerning the heavy Sulfur smell... What if your also getting Jet Black residue (kinda like coal dust) built up on the inside end of the Tailpipe. Is this NORMAL or could there be an internal Engine problem?