2005 V8 4Runner Sport - engine trouble...

[FishPatty]

I have a 2005 V8 4Runner Sport Edition...

A little bit of background...

Last May, the Toyota service department changed the oil and one week later my engine seized. The tech hadn't removed the gasket from the old oil filter and put a new filter and gasket on top, which of course didn't seal. They replaced my engine and said it was good to go.

Just last weekend I went to start her up and she idled really fast and made a popping noise, which it turns out was my pistons slamming into the valves and seizing another engine. Toyota says the water pump pulley broke, leading to a damaged timing chain/belt, and therefore the pistons were off timing and damaged the valves.

I am not a mechanic and just need to clarify what happened. My question is could this second occurrence be due to poor labor in replacing the first engine? Does the water pump pulley have to be dealt with when replacing a new engine? If it has to do with their labor, I want the new engine warranty to cover it and not my warranty. The service department says no, but I don't trust them further than I can throw them...

Thanks!
FishPatty

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The 2UZ-FE (4.7L V8) is an interference engine utilizing a timing belt, the waterpump is in fact driven off the timing belt; but their explanation is a little odd in my eyes.

You you provide us with some more information? When the engine was replaced was it replaced with a short block (only the engine block, crankshaft, pistons, and associated engine block components), long block (includes engine block, cylinder heads, camshafts, ect), or a complete crate engine? (Basically plug-n-play, no parts used from old engine.) This is important as it will answer your question in regards to a mistake in reassembling/installing the new motor.

As for the water pump pulley. As a customer you would have a very difficult time diagnosing or noticing a water pump pulley failing before it would be too late (I'm talking about the water pump locking up, pulley bearing growling severely, ect; not a leak.) If the dealer has not recommended you a waterpump prior to this engine failing, there is no real way you could have known this would happen no any way it can be blamed on "poor customer maintenance;" granted this sometimes just happens anyways without anyone having to mess things up. But to be honest with you I have never personally seen a waterpump on a 2UZ-FE lock-up, a co-worker did rebuild one due to a lock-up pump killing the belt; this was due to high mileage, leaking pump, and customer negligence more than anything though. Also, it must have been an aftermarket filter because I have never seen one of our Toyota OEM filters with the o-ring style seal stick to the pedestal (I will admit I did something similar a long time ago, had become so used to the o-rings not sticking I made a mess in my stall when I had removed an after market filter to install a Denso one. :hiding: But usually they spray enough oil that you notice before leaving the stall...)

 

[FishPatty]

Thanks for the reply.

When they installed the engine back in June, they replaced it with a short block. As for the specifics of what else they did, I am not certain. I know they didn't replace the water pump or timing belt when they replaced the engine. I took the vehicle to the Toyota service department for the oil change, so I assumed that it was a Toyota OEM filter.

 

[M1911]

So how old was the timing belt and water pump when they broke?

 

[Rattlecanpaint]

If they put the old timing belt and water pump on a new engine and it broke, THEY need to put you another engine in it for free. Why the F would anyone take that chance?

 

[FishPatty]

The car had ~71000 miles on it when the first engine was replaced, and it currently has ~78000 miles on it.

 

[gm350reratliff]

This sounds like the worst service dept. in history. Any other dealers around? I've never heard so much trouble from one of these engines.

 

[FishPatty]

Haha, welcome to Fairbanks, Alaska... Terrible service! There are other dealers in town, but I figured I should take it back there if it was their mistake from the get go. I just really want to know what I am talking about before I go in there and cause a ruckus. Not even a ruckus, I just want it fixed properly.

 

[ebg18t]

It seems a little odd to me that someone will install an new block yet reuse a water-pump and belt that has 71k miles on it.

 

[28.]

If they put the old timing belt and water pump on a new engine and it broke, THEY need to put you another engine in it for free. Why the F would anyone take that chance?

That's axactly what I was thinking. Like buying new shoes and reusing old shoe laces... Good grief :nono:

 

[GLP]

I am pretty sure that these timing belts are to be replaced at 7 years or 100k miles, which ever comes first, for you it was 7 years. So they should have replaced the TB for sure, as for the WP, that is not truly a maintenance item but any good dealer would do it when the belt is changed (charge you for it, not as part of warranty), especially if a new engine is going in.

It's tough to say whether you have any chance of warranty on this because the TB didn't break and the WP is technically not maintenance. They could say the WP would have broke even if you were still on the first engine. It's worth a try and bring up the fact that the TB should have been replaced last May.

 

[Gatafly]

Its only been 7k miles on the new engine, wouldnt it still be under a warranty?

 

[20034RunnerV84x2]

It depends. I'd contact Toyota headquarters directly & speak with them about it. The timing belt is supposed to be replaced at 90k or 7 maybe 8 years. I think it's 7 though. Dealers usually recommend to replace the water pump with the bearings, tensioners, etc with the timing belt because it already all apart.

I have a 03 V8 and I just turned over 78k. Everything is fine.

Sounds to me like you're going to one terrible sour dealer. Demand them pay a different one and have the engine replaced there. It's completely unacceptable.

Did they use all OEM parts the first time?

 

[ChaosStarter]

Are you sure they didn't just get a junkyard motor and you had some bad luck with that motor down the line?

 

[FishPatty]

I just went to the service department this morning to talk with the service tech. He went over the engine with me and said that the timing belt was replaced in May with the "new" engine. I was told at that time (May) that they don't put new engines in old vehicles, only refurbished ones. This time, I was told they only put new engines in... I am so frustrated!

They said the water pump was in good condition, so they didn't deem it necessary to replace it. The engine is under warranty, but they are claiming this doesn't have anything to do with their work, but it is just a bad luck sort of thing. I have a hard time believing it. I am going to contact Toyota headquarters to see if I can get some regular maintenance rules for replacing the water pump, etc. The service manager at this dealership said they don't normally replace them until 120k miles.

I appreciate all of your help. I feel like I am getting jerked around because I don't know much about engines. I am learning a lot here though.

 

[jimithing]

I just went to the service department this morning to talk with the service tech. He went over the engine with me and said that the timing belt was replaced in May with the "new" engine. I was told at that time (May) that they don't put new engines in old vehicles, only refurbished ones. This time, I was told they only put new engines in... I am so frustrated!

They said the water pump was in good condition, so they didn't deem it necessary to replace it. The engine is under warranty, but they are claiming this doesn't have anything to do with their work, but it is just a bad luck sort of thing. I have a hard time believing it. I am going to contact Toyota headquarters to see if I can get some regular maintenance rules for replacing the water pump, etc. The service manager at this dealership said they don't normally replace them until 120k miles.

I appreciate all of your help. I feel like I am getting jerked around because I don't know much about engines. I am learning a lot here though.

BlackWorks can probably tell you about Toyota procedures for replacing engines but in my line of work I can tell you that we almost never replace a system with a brand new unit. They're just about always refurbished. Of course refurbished means different things to different companies. For us it might as well be new. In a lot of ways we go over refurbished units more closely than a new unit. It's probably not the same for an engine. They probably don't tear them down and rebuild them. My guess is if something is wrong with it they'll fix it but if everything is working they don't touch.

 

[ChaosStarter]

BlackWorks can probably tell you about Toyota procedures for replacing engines but in my line of work I can tell you that we almost never replace a system with a brand new unit. They're just about always refurbished. Of course refurbished means different things to different companies. For us it might as well be new. In a lot of ways we go over refurbished units more closely than a new unit. It's probably not the same for an engine. They probably don't tear them down and rebuild them. My guess is if something is wrong with it they'll fix it but if everything is working they don't touch.

I, along with Blackworks, will tell you that Toyota does not offer remanufactured or brand 'new' long blocks. They offer the short block only as a 'built' part. If the heads are damaged, they'll sell you new heads too and need to shim them for the correct cold spec gap for valve adjustment. If the heads are ok and not cracked or warped, you can probably reuse them. Even if valves bend, they don't always screw up a head. However, they can mess up the piston faces if they hit hard enough.

The reason I asked about the junkyard motor was because if they had to pay for it, that is probably they're cheapest option. A short block will go for a couple grand easy I would imagine plus probably 20+ hours to assemble. It cheaper for them both parts and labor to do a junkyard motor and slap a new t-belt on there. I have no idea if Jasper remans a motor for this (they probably do), nor do I know how much it would cost because we never use them. Junkyard or rebuild for us at my dealer.

On the older 1.8T VW turbo 4cyls, when a timing belt went (and they were interference too), they would bend 16 out of the 20 valves every single time. They usually didn't do enough damage to the pistons to warrant replacement. Replace the bent valves, grind 'em with some valve compound and your set. They'd run like new. Those water pumps would break on the impellar side due to a dumb plastic design, eventually separating from the shaft.



EDIT: And for the record, even with people with Toyota Extra Care (Toyota's extended warranty): they'll put junkyard motors into vehicles if the price for a rebuild is too high.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Oh yeah... I don't think I've ever seen anything but brand new short blocks, even then most of them are "factory rebuilt." We have sourced junkyard motors in the past for older Toyotas that the warranty did not want to spend money on.

At this point you're going to have to muscle the dealership to get you records of what was approved by the warranty company and also muscle the warranty company to fess up to where they tried to save money on the job. If the techs are worth their salt they will have recommended the new belt and parts before going to the warranty company, mostly to cover their ass if something like this happens (at least they should be doing that if they're smart enough...)

I'm going to go ahead and blame the warranty & dealer for this as this problem was more than likely a result of reusing components that probably should not have been reused for the job.

 

[FishPatty]

I just got a call from the Toyota shop and they said my warranty will cover the engine. Thank goodness someone is going to cover it.

I do have one other question... I'm sorry if any of you have already explained this to me...

Does the water pump have to be removed or worked on when a new short block is put in the car?

 

[slyfox75]

So ask them what their plan is on this one? Junkyard motor or shortblock again? JY(ask how many miles) and what if anything they are going to replace. If they do a compete JY motor, they don't have to replace the water pump. If they do short block they will need to put a water pump on the SB.....are they using your old one? new one?(probably a "new" reman).
Since the timing belt broke, if they do SB they will have to put a new one on.....at 78K, if they go SB and they say they are going to reuse your water pump, id tell them to put a new one on and they should only charge you for parts as the labor would be the same either way(or you could raise more hell and try to get a new one for free due to your troubles).

Good luck brah!