2015 TE Modification option advice

[dieck]

A little background:

My family fills most of our leisure time as rock climbers. Today we drive a 2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited that's lifted on 35s and a 2013 Subaru Outback on stock sized bfg at ko. We use these vehicles as daily drivers and also for many weekend and longer climbing trips. Because we live in central tx it's not uncommon for us to drive 13+ hours each way and then at the destination have a .1-10 mile off-road trail, sometimes quite rough or muddy.

We also have a off-road compact camping trailer with brakes that can be up to 3500 lbs loaded which is too much for the Subaru to pull. So on shorter duration trips we take the Subaru which is a fantastic vehicle both on and off road and on longer trips we take the jeep to pull the trailer. The jeep while great offroad, has been tiring to drive long distances and is not the best tow vehicle. Its so loud on the highway that often by the time we get to our climbing destination we are too tired to climb.

We recently got back from a climbing trip to Indian Creek near Moab and lucked into a rental 4Runner SR5. I was really impressed with the combination of capability and economy the 4Runner provided. We got over 20mpg over 500 miles that included a bunch of 4x4 trails, idling, and high speed 75+ driving. In addition it was quiet, refined, not tiring to drive, and the tech was pretty nice. I also really enjoyed the roll down rear window which was almost as pleasant as having to top off the jeep but is more more practical and easy to close when it rains or you get to a destination.

So I got back to Austin, and ordered a 2015 White 4Runner Trail which I should take delivery of next week and I'll be selling the jeep.

In the last week I joined T4R and spent about 30 hours reading all the build threads, tire recommendations, and a ton of other subjects but I would still like your feedback on the direction I'm thinking of going.

Goal: a reliable do it all daily driver/road trip/off-road capable, tow vehicle that retains excellent drivability and good economy and isn't too tiring to drive for 26 hours in a weekend.

All of my build plans will include an aftermarket transmission cooler, hidden winch, and 6pin trailer wiring.

Option 1: no lift, C Load Range 44lbs - LT265/70-17 Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac tires on stock toyota wheels, airbags in rear springs

Pro - low center of gravity, most aerodynamic for highway travel, more aggressive but still light weight tires of original diameter for fuel economy and towing on and off-road, airbags for trailer load control

Cons - doesn't look as cool to me, low ground clearance (less than the trailer), also the rear door is right at scalping height when open at stock lift levels. Airbags can puncture with heavy off-road use. Stock suspension is a little too soft for my taste and driving habits. Added unsprung weight and rotating mass +4 lbs per tire

Option 2. OME lift front 885. Rear 898, 58lbs - LT255/80-17 Cooper Discoverer S/T Maxx on stock TE wheels

Pro - stiffer springs instead of airbags for trailer are less likely to fail than airbags, better ground clearance, similar ground clearance to trailer other than rear pumpkin, looks cool, rear door less likely to scalp me tire width/rim width very compatible minimal rubbing and trimming, tires are more robust

Con - tires increase unsprung weight and rotating mass +18 lbs per tire, mpg penalty for lift and heavier larger diameter tires, added wear and tear from lift on front drive train components, slightly less reliable due to suspension modification.

So here comes my question. Any predictions what the fuel economy hit is for option 1 and 2? I'm guessing close to stock mpg in option 1 and 2-3 MPG hit in Option 2? Or is it worse? Could I get 17-18 mpg on the highway with the lift and cooper pizza cutters?

Thank you!

 

[Jhalko]

I average 18.5 in mixed driving with my lift etc. with my Limited, probably depends on how your drive. When I went to Moab a few weeks ago my highway average was around 20mpg, but I drive pretty easy on the pavement. others will probably post very different results.

 

[st8rocks]

+1 on the OME lift. You can install and never worry about them.

With cooper 255/80 and my setup I get 20 mpg on the highway. It's competely falt here though.

 

[dieck]

That is shocking! And if true for me, fantastic news! Thank you!

+1 on the OME lift. You can install and never worry about them.

With cooper 255/80 and my setup I get 20 mpg on the highway. It's competely falt here though.

 

[Intruder]

I prefer option 2 simply because there are no air bags involved. Like you said, they can puncture off road. I've only ever wheeled with two vehicles that had air bags and both of them punctured theirs on the trail - two separate occasions and two different trails.

 

[dieck]

Anyone else with 255/80r17 pizza cutters on stock TE wheels want to give a MPG report?

 

[jeffmorris79]

I am running Toytec Ultimate with 285/70/17 duratracs. I am getting 16.5-17 mpg combined. I drive about 30 miles highway and 20 in stop and go traffic everyday. I am not light footed either.

 

[hangman]

I can not seem to get away from 16.6 MPG on my TE. Putting on a CAI this weekend--we'll see if it changes.

 

[dawudih]

18#'s at each corner is a lot.
The airbags will have 2 schrader valves flanking the trailer hitch and can be adjusted for each apllication. Rover uses them so they're plenty strong.
I've got the same car bone stock, it tows fine & a-trac makes it a goat off road. my only mod will be a good set of Michellins soon.

 

[wfo9]

Fellow Austinite here...

Got to be honest though, two statements make me thinking you might making the wrong choice.

We also have a off-road compact camping trailer with brakes that can be up to 3500 lbs loaded.

Goal: a reliable do it all daily driver/road trip/off-road capable, tow vehicle that retains excellent drivability and good economy and isn't too tiring to drive for 26 hours in a weekend.

The tow vehicle part is the red flag for me.

The 5th gen is just not a good tow vehicle. Can it tow 3,500, sure. However, it is under powered for towing IMHO.

Again, personal choice, but I hate towing up a mountain road underpowered. Since you said the Subaru is your non tow choice... I would be looking for something that is more at home towing and possibly diesel powered.

 

[Jetboy]

I had airbags on my last 4runner. Loved the adjustability and weight carrying capacity. I didn't like the ride. Even at minimum pressure they were pretty darn bouncy. It's possible that a better matched shock should be installed with them to match the new combined spring rate.

Never had an issue with punctures or leaks. They are inside the coils on a 4runner and pretty darn puncture resistant - but the lines could be damaged if they weren't properly routed. Same reason ARBs are often called ABR Anything But Reliable. Air actuation is inherently prone to various sorts of failures. Same applies to airbags. Good installation is pretty important to long term reliability. Most ARB failures are due to poor quality installs rather than the internal seal failure that are relatively uncommon.

It's very unusual to see in the USA, but you could use more street type tires and tire chains for mud. If you go to south america you'll see tire chains used really effectively in mud.

 

[dieck]

18#'s at each corner is a lot.
The airbags will have 2 schrader valves flanking the trailer hitch and can be adjusted for each apllication. Rover uses them so they're plenty strong.
I've got the same car bone stock, it tows fine & a-trac makes it a goat off road. my only mod will be a good set of Michellins soon.

Do you tow offroad? What weight trailer/hitch weight?

 

[dieck]

I appreciate the feedback! Admittedly anything I choose will be a compromise. The big diesel trucks are awesome for towing but are less than ideal for me as a daily driver and end up costing quite a bit more per mile when you include depreciation, plus many of the places I travel off road are tight narrow trails. I had a tundra previously and loved it other than MPG and it was too wide and long to maneuver on the trails with the trailer. The smaller footprint of the 4Runner or jeep really helps out when you have to back the trailer down tight trails or turn around in a cramped space w the trailer offroad.

The trailer weighs about 1500lbs empty and is only 4 feet tall and a little narrower than the truck so it doesn't push much air. It usually weighs about 2400 lbs for the road trip and then we fill up w water (30 gal tank) ice and food just before the destination that takes it up to near 3000 lbs.

The reality is of all the miles put on the 4Runner maybe 10% will be towing and maybe 5% will be offroad.

Keep the feedback coming. Thank you for taking the time to respond!

Fellow Austinite here...

Got to be honest though, two statements make me thinking you might making the wrong choice.



The tow vehicle part is the red flag for me.

The 5th gen is just not a good tow vehicle. Can it tow 3,500, sure. However, it is under powered for towing IMHO.

Again, personal choice, but I hate towing up a mountain road underpowered. Since you said the Subaru is your non tow choice... I would be looking for something that is more at home towing and possibly diesel powered.

 

[dieck]

18#'s at each corner is a lot.
The airbags will have 2 schrader valves flanking the trailer hitch and can be adjusted for each apllication. Rover uses them so they're plenty strong.
I've got the same car bone stock, it tows fine & a-trac makes it a goat off road. my only mod will be a good set of Michellins soon.

I agree the weight of all the AT tires even in the stock size is off putting, but it seems to be the price we pay for durability.?

 

[dieck]

Interesting feedback and thoughts especially on the tire chains. I feel I should at the very least upgrade to a c-rated AT tire for durability and offroad survivability while towing. But I'm going to look into the tire chains as a backup plan of things get really hairy in the trail.

I had airbags on my last 4runner. Loved the adjustability and weight carrying capacity. I didn't like the ride. Even at minimum pressure they were pretty darn bouncy. It's possible that a better matched shock should be installed with them to match the new combined spring rate.

Never had an issue with punctures or leaks. They are inside the coils on a 4runner and pretty darn puncture resistant - but the lines could be damaged if they weren't properly routed. Same reason ARBs are often called ABR Anything But Reliable. Air actuation is inherently prone to various sorts of failures. Same applies to airbags. Good installation is pretty important to long term reliability. Most ARB failures are due to poor quality installs rather than the internal seal failure that are relatively uncommon.

It's very unusual to see in the USA, but you could use more street type tires and tire chains for mud. If you go to south america you'll see tire chains used really effectively in mud.

 

[PHXTE]

Sounds like you're going to have to find the right compromise between durability while still maintaining daily drivability. It sounds like you dislike your Jeep mostly because you modified it for these trails, so you probably don't want to go too crazy with the 4R either. If you're pulling a trailer, I can't imagine these trails are too wild, so I'd probably get a good set of ATs and call it a day.

I'd also be careful with the chains because with those, you're going to tear the crap out of whatever terrain it is you're on, especially harder packed terrain, and you might want to check the legality of doing so as well. A lot of states have laws against using tire chains in non-winter months on normal roads.

 

[96r50]

Why not start with better stock size tires and airbags just to see how it goes? The investment is minimal (you can always sell the tires and bags later) and driving it stock will let you figure out what you actually need to do to improve the truck. If you can make it in to places in a stock Outback with AT tires what makes you think you need a lift and 33's?

We towed our Echo5 trailer, which is slightly bigger but similar weight to yours, all over the Rocky Mountains in British Columbia last fall and I never noticed a lack of power at any point with stock size tires on the 4Runner. I personally wouldn't tow much more than that with a 4Runner but for this size of trailer it does quite well. Adding a lift and larger tires will not make the truck tow better either.

FYI, the 4Runner comes with fully wired 7 and 4 pin plugs. All you may need to add is a brake controller and it's prewired for that too.

 

[Speedy Gomez]

So here comes my question. Any predictions what the fuel economy hit is for option 1 and 2? I'm guessing close to stock mpg in option 1 and 2-3 MPG hit in Option 2? Or is it worse? Could I get 17-18 mpg on the highway with the lift and cooper pizza cutters?

In my opinion who cares about MPG or Fuel Economy just enjoy your off road vehicle.

 

[dieck]

Outstanding info. Didn't realize it already had a 7 pin and prewiring for brake controller. Solid points all around. We've dragged our belly many times in the subaru but so far haven't been stuck in it. I would like a stiffer spring /shock combo 4Runner but 3 inches is pushing it for stock front arms. Wish OME made their medium stiff springs in a 2in lift version. Thanks again for the helpful post. My thinking is evolving.

Why not start with better stock size tires and airbags just to see how it goes? The investment is minimal (you can always sell the tires and bags later) and driving it stock will let you figure out what you actually need to do to improve the truck. If you can make it in to places in a stock Outback with AT tires what makes you think you need a lift and 33's?

We towed our Echo5 trailer, which is slightly bigger but similar weight to yours, all over the Rocky Mountains in British Columbia last fall and I never noticed a lack of power at any point with stock size tires on the 4Runner. I personally wouldn't tow much more than that with a 4Runner but for this size of trailer it does quite well. Adding a lift and larger tires will not make the truck tow better either.

FYI, the 4Runner comes with fully wired 7 and 4 pin plugs. All you may need to add is a brake controller and it's prewired for that too.

 

[wfo9]

I appreciate the feedback! Admittedly anything I choose will be a compromise. The big diesel trucks are awesome for towing but are less than ideal for me as a daily driver and end up costing quite a bit more per mile when you include depreciation, plus many of the places I travel off road are tight narrow trails. I had a tundra previously and loved it other than MPG and it was too wide and long to maneuver on the trails with the trailer. The smaller footprint of the 4Runner or jeep really helps out when you have to back the trailer down tight trails or turn around in a cramped space w the trailer offroad.

The trailer weighs about 1500lbs empty and is only 4 feet tall and a little narrower than the truck so it doesn't push much air. It usually weighs about 2400 lbs for the road trip and then we fill up w water (30 gal tank) ice and food just before the destination that takes it up to near 3000 lbs.

The reality is of all the miles put on the 4Runner maybe 10% will be towing and maybe 5% will be offroad.

Keep the feedback coming. Thank you for taking the time to respond!

As long as you know the 4runner will have to really work for it...when it comes to towing. Some people are OK with that, others feel like they are beating it up too bad and it makes them feel uneasy. Luckily, they can take a lot of abuse as long as you keep the transmission cool enough by keeping the converter locked.

It's important to know that Toyota tuned the throttle response on these things to be horrible/fuel economy focused. It eventually responds when you mash it... but it often feels way more sluggish than it really is. In other words, the motor is not responding to your input very quickly. It's unfortunate... but there are 0 tuning options and therefore not much aftermarket support for the motor. There is plenty of potential in it, but Toyota pretty much locked it up and holds the keys. The legality of this type of thing is starting to hit the news recently. You Own the Car, But Do You Own Its Software? | Doug Newcomb | PCMag.com


Anyway, for your intended use, I would highly recommend taking a hard look at the KDSS system. You will have to purchase it via a trail edition in another region (Toyota has stupid regional distributors that don't allow it in the gulf coast states...). It is a fantastic system for those not looking to do long travel... It will increase the offroad capability without really having any downsides on the road. In fact, it will actually handle better on the road.

I would still do a mild lift (OME...) and AT tires in pizza cutter form..

Two sets of wheels is also an option. Run the lighter lower rolling resistance ones when towing... Since you won't be hitting any real trails then.... Run the ATs when you want to go get lost or play.