2018 TRD Pro or Offroad and KDSS question
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probos
New member
Kidding aside -- I really think you're over thinking this from the perspective of which one is better "off-road". If it's gonna be your daily driver and be used for trail driving to hunting/camp either would serve your purpose well. KDSS is reportedly better on-road (I've never driven one with it personally). I have a 2015 Pro, I've never had it off road with the exception of an occasional dirt trail. It's an on-road queen and I love it. If you have a budget that should probably drive your buying decision more than which is better "off-road". Also, you have to like what you drive aesthetically -- get one you like at a good price. Most of the models of 4Runner will suit your needs well for what you're looking for.
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billnourse
New member
My thoughts. The Pro has an upgraded suspension and some badging, not much more. The Off Road has KDSS and with 1,700 you can add a suspension lift to get it better than the Pro. My Off Road Premium with Sun Roof and KDSS was under 40,000.
I can't speak to your question on wheel travel, but my Off Road with a Toytec lift has 12.5" from ground to front skid plate. I think the pro has about 10.5 in stock configuration, but not sure.
If you intend to upgrade tires, the Pro has 7" wheels while the Off Road has 7.5" wheels. This gives you a little more choice and still be within wheel to tire size spec.
You can usually get a "Deal" on an Off Road and save around 2,500 to 3,000 off MSRP. Haven't seen any Pro's that you can get that kind of deal on. So you can get the Off Road with the same capability as the Pro for 3,000 to 5,000 less money.
If you want a little extra status the Pro is the way to go. If you want to get the job done the Off Road might be a better choice.
Bill
I can't speak to your question on wheel travel, but my Off Road with a Toytec lift has 12.5" from ground to front skid plate. I think the pro has about 10.5 in stock configuration, but not sure.
If you intend to upgrade tires, the Pro has 7" wheels while the Off Road has 7.5" wheels. This gives you a little more choice and still be within wheel to tire size spec.
You can usually get a "Deal" on an Off Road and save around 2,500 to 3,000 off MSRP. Haven't seen any Pro's that you can get that kind of deal on. So you can get the Off Road with the same capability as the Pro for 3,000 to 5,000 less money.
If you want a little extra status the Pro is the way to go. If you want to get the job done the Off Road might be a better choice.
Bill
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Another thought and my main consideration when buying a vehicle I plan to keep for 300K miles. KDSS is another failure point and is costly to repair in the event of failure. It's also difficult to find mechanics with a good understanding/expertise of the KDSS system, even Toyota dealers.
Also, if you live in an area where roads are salted and/or undercarriage rust is common, then I would stay away from KDSS. There have been multiple reports of failures for users in rust prone areas.
KDSS is a great system when it works properly. It does add complexities when modifying the vehicle and certainly as the vehicle ages could be an issue.
My non-KDSS Fox suspension equipped 4Runner feels quite planted on and off road and I do not see the need for it personally. YMMV
Also, if you live in an area where roads are salted and/or undercarriage rust is common, then I would stay away from KDSS. There have been multiple reports of failures for users in rust prone areas.
KDSS is a great system when it works properly. It does add complexities when modifying the vehicle and certainly as the vehicle ages could be an issue.
My non-KDSS Fox suspension equipped 4Runner feels quite planted on and off road and I do not see the need for it personally. YMMV
Jetboy
New member
If you want the color - buy the pro. Otherwise the OR - with or without KDSS it's more than enough cheaper to upgrade the suspension to something better than the Pro has like Fox/King/Icon/SAW. After having put a bunch of miles recently on an ICON compared to my FOX setup - I'd go with ICON. There's a common misconception that the ICON is digressive on compression like the bilstein shocks. ICON is digressive in rebound only - and progressive in compression. The dampening is spot on. I plan to re-shim my FOX to match next time I pull them out. OR and Pro have the same ground clearance. Contrary to what you may find, KDSS DOES NOT LOWER GROUND CLEARANCE. It fits under the TRD Pro skid. Enough said on that.
OR wheels are better. They are wider and have protected valve stems. No real debate on that. Pro wheels look cool though. I assume tire go away no matter what you buy if you want to go offroad a lot, so it's a wash in that respect. The wider OR wheels will be a bit better for 285s. The offset of the OR wheels will allow for larger tires with less rubbing.
KDSS for me is a must have. As far as I know there are maybe 5 reports of KDSS issues out of hundreds of thousands of models. It's not magic. It's far less complex than your brakes for example. IMO KDSS is something you buy for highway benefits more than offroad. Yes it gives you more articulation than any other model in stock form, and does a good job of stabilizing the body in rock crawling situations, but it's not a rock crawler or a desert racer. The 4runner is a good highway driver that also is *pretty good* in the dirt. It is not optimized for offroad use in any trim. Don't expect it to be a trophy truck or a buggy. It's great for camping - which now has a bunch of new names like overlanding or expeditions.
The best thing you can do is test drive them back to back.
OR wheels are better. They are wider and have protected valve stems. No real debate on that. Pro wheels look cool though. I assume tire go away no matter what you buy if you want to go offroad a lot, so it's a wash in that respect. The wider OR wheels will be a bit better for 285s. The offset of the OR wheels will allow for larger tires with less rubbing.
KDSS for me is a must have. As far as I know there are maybe 5 reports of KDSS issues out of hundreds of thousands of models. It's not magic. It's far less complex than your brakes for example. IMO KDSS is something you buy for highway benefits more than offroad. Yes it gives you more articulation than any other model in stock form, and does a good job of stabilizing the body in rock crawling situations, but it's not a rock crawler or a desert racer. The 4runner is a good highway driver that also is *pretty good* in the dirt. It is not optimized for offroad use in any trim. Don't expect it to be a trophy truck or a buggy. It's great for camping - which now has a bunch of new names like overlanding or expeditions.
The best thing you can do is test drive them back to back.
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e60ral
Banned
even if i have an expensive KDSS repair 10 years from now that really doesn't seem like a big deal to me in the lifetime cost of owning a vehicle, and its worth it for the benefits i enjoy. if the KDSS repair cost is a major concern, i would suggest that you may be buying more vehicle than you can actually afford.
someone in this thread said they couldn't tell the difference between KDSS and non-KDSS vehicles. it's entirely your preference which you prefer but ignore anyone who says they can't tell a difference between the two. they must be the least aware driver when it comes to vehicle handling and feedback if they can't tell a difference, because the vehicle dynamics are extremely different, it's very noticeable.
someone in this thread said they couldn't tell the difference between KDSS and non-KDSS vehicles. it's entirely your preference which you prefer but ignore anyone who says they can't tell a difference between the two. they must be the least aware driver when it comes to vehicle handling and feedback if they can't tell a difference, because the vehicle dynamics are extremely different, it's very noticeable.
mattyrides07
New member
We have a stock '11 without KDSS we bought brand new.
We have a slightly modified '13 TE with KDSS, we bought stock with 33K miles.
We were in your same situation because we're selling the '11. We decided to get the '18 with KDSS because it IS that much better on and off road. FYI- After I did my 3" ICON lift with KDSS I have a more capable vehicle than the PRO on and off road.
We have a slightly modified '13 TE with KDSS, we bought stock with 33K miles.
We were in your same situation because we're selling the '11. We decided to get the '18 with KDSS because it IS that much better on and off road. FYI- After I did my 3" ICON lift with KDSS I have a more capable vehicle than the PRO on and off road.
Toffees
Member
There is no "better off road," but each may be better or worse for you depending on how you plan to use them. If you want a short answer (from someone who owns none of these):
TRDOR no KDSS: best if you want to do major changes to suspension
TRDOR w/ KDSS: best if you want to stay mostly stock, want better on road handling
TRDP: best if you want to stay mostly stock, like the Pro package
Then again, you can read what people have specifically written about them and see if their experiences match your expectations.
Here is my opinion...
I had a 4R with KDSS for 6 years for reference
1. If you don't know what KDSS is or what it really does, you will probably never be able to determine if you are driving a 4R with it or not
2. If you do know what it is, will you really be putting yourself in the situations for which it is intended? Ppl say better on road handling, but honestly, any suspension is your biggest factor there
3. Do you want the look of the Pro? If this is the only factor, buy the Pro, sure you can get a less expensive model and then spend the time and money on all the parts, taking your truck apart and putting it back together, but that gets expensive and in the end you'll prob spend the same - unless you like doing the work, then go for it!
4. Resale - this is the one most ppl leave out when they say the OR is less expensive. In 3 years you can still sell a true Pro for MSRP or more, the OR will go for about 50-60% of MSRP
In the end it comes down to what you want - I have TRDP on the way, in black, so no special color. I like the way it looks and I don't have to do any work...for now. I'm sure I'll rip it apart in a year or so, but that's a choice you make and if I decide to sell it in a few years I know I'll get my money back as if I drove it for free
I had a 4R with KDSS for 6 years for reference
1. If you don't know what KDSS is or what it really does, you will probably never be able to determine if you are driving a 4R with it or not
2. If you do know what it is, will you really be putting yourself in the situations for which it is intended? Ppl say better on road handling, but honestly, any suspension is your biggest factor there
3. Do you want the look of the Pro? If this is the only factor, buy the Pro, sure you can get a less expensive model and then spend the time and money on all the parts, taking your truck apart and putting it back together, but that gets expensive and in the end you'll prob spend the same - unless you like doing the work, then go for it!
4. Resale - this is the one most ppl leave out when they say the OR is less expensive. In 3 years you can still sell a true Pro for MSRP or more, the OR will go for about 50-60% of MSRP
In the end it comes down to what you want - I have TRDP on the way, in black, so no special color. I like the way it looks and I don't have to do any work...for now. I'm sure I'll rip it apart in a year or so, but that's a choice you make and if I decide to sell it in a few years I know I'll get my money back as if I drove it for free
Well said, I agree 100%.
Followup and a few comments
This forum rocks. You guys are great. I have been 10 years driving 4Runners, and member here 4 or 5 years but never really asked much so thank you all. Here are a few pics of the trail I deal with now. Some sections are much worse then anything pictured but worth a look still.
This forum rocks. You guys are great. I have been 10 years driving 4Runners, and member here 4 or 5 years but never really asked much so thank you all. Here are a few pics of the trail I deal with now. Some sections are much worse then anything pictured but worth a look still.
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Jetboy
New member
There is no such thing as a Pro vin. So no buyer could ever determine if your vehicle is a pro or not. If it's not the unique color - it's indistinguishable from any other model to a potential buyer if you were to convert the parts. It's no different from someone at the port doing the same thing.
Resale is about the same. If you buy a TRD Pro at MSRP and a OR at invoice plus $500, (about going rates), the resale loss over 3 years will be roughly $3k for each. MSRP for a TRD Pro is $41k, typical sale price for a TRD ORP w/o kdss is $36500. Assuming you were to sell both at NADA clean trade in value, the TRD Pro would be $38k, the TRD OR would be $33k. You can do the math. The TRD Pro resale is very good. So is every other model of 4runner. They all have approximately the same depreciation in the same period of time.
Resale is about the same. If you buy a TRD Pro at MSRP and a OR at invoice plus $500, (about going rates), the resale loss over 3 years will be roughly $3k for each. MSRP for a TRD Pro is $41k, typical sale price for a TRD ORP w/o kdss is $36500. Assuming you were to sell both at NADA clean trade in value, the TRD Pro would be $38k, the TRD OR would be $33k. You can do the math. The TRD Pro resale is very good. So is every other model of 4runner. They all have approximately the same depreciation in the same period of time.
r6morrison
New member
I've been able to drive vehicles with and without (granted, they're two very different vehicles, Landcruiser and my 4Runner) and I think the main advantages of the KDSS are flatter cornering on road, and your suspension will have a little less resistance to flexing when off road. I've got the TRDP because I've got a long history of modifying vehicles and I wanted to buy a vehicle that had enough "mods" on it to keep me from modding it myself. So far, the only things I've done are rock sliders and went to 33" BFG KO2's. I know the Landcruiser isn't a 4Runner, and this might not be a fair test, but I've been able to feel how the KDSS keeps it more balanced in corners and yet lets it still be very good off road. The only advantage of the Pro vs the Landcruiser with KDSS is in high speed stuff from what I've been able to personally test. On our local baja track that is disguised as a main road (our roads are truly awful with washboard crap and everything - seriously, some of the trails I've seen people get stuck on are smoother than these roads) my 4Runner rides smoother, but only when going faster. At the 35mph speed limit, the LC is smoother. But, when you take them both up to 60-70 (not advised as it's double the speed limit) the 4Runner becomes smoother and more stable. 99.9% of the rest of the time, you can tell the KDSS is a fantastic system. If I were in the market for a 2nd 4Runner, I'd 100% go with one that has KDSS. Off road on trails, with equal tires, you won't notice any difference at all. They'll both go all the same places with the same ease. On road is where you'll notice the main advantage. I only bought the Pro model vs the Trail (Off Road) because I didn't want to mod it as much as I have other vehicles in the past. My wallet is happier, and I've got a vehicle that I am thrilled with and suits the stuff I want to do with it. You will be thrilled no matter what you buy, and whichever one you get, you'll eventually feel like you picked the perfect one for you regardless of what it is. They're all 4Runners, KDSS or not, Pro or not and they're all fantastic haha.
In terms of ground clearance, that's all gonna be in your tire size. The larger lift will only allow you to clear bigger tires, but bigger tires will lift your pumpkin and everything else off the ground. I seem to be one of the few people to fit 33's without any rubbing whatsoever, but with some very minor adjustments (if any, you could be lucky like me), you'll be able to fit them onto an Off Road model too. There is a whole other post regarding that which is easy to find, but I'll send the link if you need it. In terms of wheel travel, there won't be a difference EXCEPT that the KDSS will likely be a little less restrictive. KDSS basically behaves like a very thick sway bar on road and a very thin one off road all without having to change it out when you hit the trails. That's the simplest way to put it. The Pro has a very thin one all the time. I don't mind the added body roll, but coming from low sports cars, I feel like a truck based vehicle should roll more than what I'm used to, so it feels normal. For the trails you posted, you likely won't notice any difference at all vs a Pro and one with KDSS.
Whatever you get, post pics! Remember, you can add the visual stuff on the Pro very easily, so don't let looks be a factor. It really is just a Trail model with some black accents instead of silver and a different grill in terms of looks.
In terms of ground clearance, that's all gonna be in your tire size. The larger lift will only allow you to clear bigger tires, but bigger tires will lift your pumpkin and everything else off the ground. I seem to be one of the few people to fit 33's without any rubbing whatsoever, but with some very minor adjustments (if any, you could be lucky like me), you'll be able to fit them onto an Off Road model too. There is a whole other post regarding that which is easy to find, but I'll send the link if you need it. In terms of wheel travel, there won't be a difference EXCEPT that the KDSS will likely be a little less restrictive. KDSS basically behaves like a very thick sway bar on road and a very thin one off road all without having to change it out when you hit the trails. That's the simplest way to put it. The Pro has a very thin one all the time. I don't mind the added body roll, but coming from low sports cars, I feel like a truck based vehicle should roll more than what I'm used to, so it feels normal. For the trails you posted, you likely won't notice any difference at all vs a Pro and one with KDSS.
Whatever you get, post pics! Remember, you can add the visual stuff on the Pro very easily, so don't let looks be a factor. It really is just a Trail model with some black accents instead of silver and a different grill in terms of looks.
Adventurer
New member
Just curious if a rear E locker comes with the TRD PRO or if it is an option. I don't think I read any comments about that yet. IMO the elocker is a must have for offroad abilities. I know my 2016 trail w KDSS has it.
I have not driven the PRO but I've driven a lot off road vehicles in my life and my 4runner trail w KDSS has been the best blend of on and off road performance I have experienced.
The PRO seems like it would be better for hauling ass on some desert wash. but I think that's about it.
I have not driven the PRO but I've driven a lot off road vehicles in my life and my 4runner trail w KDSS has been the best blend of on and off road performance I have experienced.
The PRO seems like it would be better for hauling ass on some desert wash. but I think that's about it.
It's standard
r6morrison
New member
The Pro has all of the Off Road focused features of the OR model - locker, multi terrain select, crawl control, etc. just different suspension and looks
Baystate4Runner
New member
Except that it's on the window sticker (which many new buyers keep) and on the purchase and sale agreement. So yes you could let a future buyer know that your car was a Pro when purchased.
I think your numbers might be off some. See the link.
https://www.carfax.com/Used-Toyota-4Runner-TRD-Pro_t6696
Of course these are asking prices, but many forum members have reported sales comparable to these asking prices. Seems like white models suffer the greatest depreciation.
Also, it would make no sense to sell a car, private party, for its trade in value. That is, you would be better off trading it in and reaping the sales tax savings.
Brandonium
Member
I love my KDSS TEP. You will hear from both lovers and haters on this particular topic. Many say if you lift over 3" then go without. Realistically how many people here are lifting over 3"? Most of what I see is between 1-3" so..
Only gotcha is perhaps long term maintenance down the road once the vehicle gets high up in age or dealing with idiot dealers who are not equipped to service the system.
Only gotcha is perhaps long term maintenance down the road once the vehicle gets high up in age or dealing with idiot dealers who are not equipped to service the system.
