3rd gen vs 4th gen

[JohnsD90]

The 3rd generation just looks sweet, i dont understand how someone can look at a 4th gen stock, and say "mmmm, thats a great looking vehicle". I'm sure the 4.0 is a quick engine, but hey, i didnt buy my 4runner to be a quick car, mine zips around just fine. And then the 4th gen aka "the Minivan" loses the whole Utlitarian feel (which to me is the essence of the 4runner) and look to it, it turned from a workhorse to a grocery getter and soccer mom car.

 

[THEROK]

The 3rd generation just looks sweet, i dont understand how someone can look at a 4th gen stock, and say "mmmm, thats a great looking vehicle". I'm sure the 4.0 is a quick engine, but hey, i didnt buy my 4runner to be a quick car, mine zips around just fine. And then the 4th gen aka "the Minivan" loses the whole Utlitarian feel (which to me is the essence of the 4runner) and look to it, it turned from a workhorse to a grocery getter and soccer mom car.

why don't you post up a pic of your 3rd gen and we'll do the same.

the 4th gen will make your 3rd gen look like it was built in the 80s... esp that dated interior.

cheers! :trophy:

 

[2003Can4runner]

The 3rd generation just looks sweet, i dont understand how someone can look at a 4th gen stock, and say "mmmm, thats a great looking vehicle". I'm sure the 4.0 is a quick engine, but hey, i didnt buy my 4runner to be a quick car, mine zips around just fine. And then the 4th gen aka "the Minivan" loses the whole Utlitarian feel (which to me is the essence of the 4runner) and look to it, it turned from a workhorse to a grocery getter and soccer mom car.

Really? Workhorse vs. Grocery getter? Ive had both and wheeled both. The 4th is no slouch. If you want to go beyond just wheeling, I traded my 3rd because it didnt have the towing capability making my 4th V8 more of a versatile "workhorse". I tow horses, snowmobiles, campers, and encloses trailers that the 3rd couldnt even imagine. Dont get me wrong I loved my 3rd but your statements are very exaggerated.

 

[JB.]

Really? Workhorse vs. Grocery getter? Ive had both and wheeled both. The 4th is no slouch. If you want to go beyond just wheeling, I traded my 3rd because it didnt have the towing capability making my 4th V8 more of a versatile "workhorse". I tow horses, snowmobiles, campers, and encloses trailers that the 3rd couldnt even imagine. Dont get me wrong I loved my 3rd but your statements are very exaggerated.

Why all the talk about what the 4Runner will DO?

Looks and image are what matter. Get with the program.

 

[Presta24]

Drive one and you will see the BIG difference. The ride is much better. If you are into off-roading (a lot), then you can make some arguments (a bit weak) about 3rd gen's superiority. However, on-road, there is no comparison...4th gen rides like a luxury SUV.

I have never driven a 3rd gen but i have a 4th gen v8 AWD and love it. It does ride very well for an suv with plenty of power

my only complaint is it is electronically limited at 115mph...

 

[Thai]

The 3rd generation just looks sweet, i dont understand how someone can look at a 4th gen stock, and say "mmmm, thats a great looking vehicle". I'm sure the 4.0 is a quick engine, but hey, i didnt buy my 4runner to be a quick car, mine zips around just fine. And then the 4th gen aka "the Minivan" loses the whole Utlitarian feel (which to me is the essence of the 4runner) and look to it, it turned from a workhorse to a grocery getter and soccer mom car.

Really? Workhorse vs. Grocery getter? Ive had both and wheeled both. The 4th is no slouch. If you want to go beyond just wheeling, I traded my 3rd because it didnt have the towing capability making my 4th V8 more of a versatile "workhorse". I tow horses, snowmobiles, campers, and encloses trailers that the 3rd couldnt even imagine. Dont get me wrong I loved my 3rd but your statements are very exaggerated.

Don't mind John...he has zippo experience off-road...talks only thru OTHER people's experiences which he heard from the grapevine that is grown in another country somewhere far from here....

The only things that John knows are: manual transmission is cool and Land Rovers have no reliability issues. So, there, you have facts that we all can learn from.

I think that his 3rd gen is a base SR5 with tiny tires....

 

[theizzardking]

Don't mind John...he has zippo experience off-road...talks only thru OTHER people's experiences which he heard from the grapevine that is grown in another country somewhere far from here....

The only things that John knows are: manual transmission is cool and Land Rovers have no reliability issues. So, there, you have facts that we all can learn from.

I think that his 3rd gen is a base SR5 with tiny tires....

coming from a mivi-van prius driver eh?

got pics of you wheeling that pruis? lol

lol, sorry couldn't resist, all in good fun thai not looking to start anything ;-)

these sort of threads are silly, 4th gen is greater for on road and 3rd gen is great for off road it's simple as that, there's no verses here, each one excels at different things and for various reasons.

3rd gen comes with greater t-case (true 4x4 none of this power management crap) and axle options (locker stock), and is built more stout.

4th gen come with more power,greater road manners and creature comforts


there's no denying the 3rd gen is under powered in the top end,boxy (some like that though) and a bit bare on the inside, with the only known common problems is the rear axle seals and pink milk shake

as opposed to the 4th gen being 10 years newer has rust issues,frame issues, and a whole bunch of cool electronic stuff that breaks,rattle,flutters and a bunch of other stuff.

and honestly that's not 4th gens fault it's just the state of the world, alot of stuff isn't manufactured to the same level as it used to be, i think we can all agree on that, companies trying to bumper revenue buy using a cheaper steel or cheaper components, basically cutting corners somewhere, inflation has gone up,wages have gone down and the price of the rigs have stayed the same, something has to give somewhere in the line.

there are large groups of people in the know who have skipped the 4th gens all togther and went straight to the 5th gen because it would appear that the original toyota quality is back! and to be honest i'll probably do the same, skip to the 5th gen, just needs a few more years to be proven, 2-3 and i'll be happy.

bottom line is WGAF, drive what makes you happy,get what you like, and don't let anyone else sway your opinion- even my statements, everyone has their own opinions, and given enough money & time you can over come any problem with any of these vehicles and build them to suit you.

my basic statement is this from the box 3rd gen is greater for off road, from the box 4th gen is great on road, do the math on how much it'll cost you to get each rig the way you want and go that route.

maybe next time we can start a thread called:

green vs blue

which one is better?:roadkill:

 

[JohnsD90]

SR5 isnt Base, and 31's are the tallest tires factory availabe, both are options i have, and i have the bigger of the 2 motors available.

 

[Thai]

coming from a mivi-van prius driver eh?

got pics of you wheeling that pruis? lol

lol, sorry couldn't resist, all in good fun thai not looking to start anything ;-)

3rd gen comes with greater t-case (true 4x4 none of this power management crap) and axle options (locker stock), and is built more stout.

4th gen come with more power,greater road manners and creature comforts


there's no denying the 3rd gen is under powered in the top end,boxy (some like that though) and a bit bare on the inside, with the only known common problems is the rear axle seals and pink milk shake

as opposed to the 4th gen being 10 years newer has rust issues,frame issues, and a whole bunch of cool electronic stuff that breaks,rattle,flutters and a bunch of other stuff.

Just wait...a 5 inch lift Prius is coming.... :hatsoff:

Greater t-case?? true 4x4? Power management...you mean ATRAC? I am not sure if that is directly related to t-case. The 4th gen has a t-case too, same 4lo ratio too i think. But, the 4th gen has a better CRAWL ratio, which can make a world of difference off-road.

Don't forget, the 2009 Trail Edition has a factory rear locker too.

A locker can always be added. 4-wheel traction canNOT be added. The nice thing about adding a rear locker to a 4th gen is that you get the rear locked and traction control managing the front IFS (simlar to having a LSD up front and a rear locker).

Built more stout? Not sure where you get this from. The frame for the 4th gen is bigger/thicker. Crash tests are significantly better.

Rust? I don't know...the Tacoma (and Tundra) of the same age as the 3rd gen was a rust magnet...so, i am not sure about your theory on newer cars being more cheaply made.

Not sure, but i like to have 4-channel ABS system, stronger frame (and thus safer), rear disc brakes, better crawl ratio, ATRAC (or, even better, A-TRAC on 2009 Trail), rear locker (2009 Trail) over a 3rd gen. For me, the 3rd gen was excellent off-road, but sucks on-road. The 4th gen made massive improvement on-road while still retaining most of the off-road capability (and in the 2009 Trail Edition, surpassing any stock 4runners before it).

 

[theizzardking]

Just wait...a 5 inch lift Prius is coming.... :hatsoff:

Greater t-case?? true 4x4? Power management...you mean ATRAC? I am not sure if that is directly related to t-case. The 4th gen has a t-case too, same 4lo ratio too i think. But, the 4th gen has a better CRAWL ratio, which can make a world of difference off-road.

Don't forget, the 2009 Trail Edition has a factory rear locker too.

A locker can always be added. 4-wheel traction canNOT be added. The nice thing about adding a rear locker to a 4th gen is that you get the rear locked and traction control managing the front IFS (simlar to having a LSD up front and a rear locker).

Built more stout? Not sure where you get this from. The frame for the 4th gen is bigger/thicker. Crash tests are significantly better.

Rust? I don't know...the Tacoma (and Tundra) of the same age as the 3rd gen was a rust magnet...so, i am not sure about your theory on newer cars being more cheaply made.

Not sure, but i like to have 4-channel ABS system, stronger frame (and thus safer), rear disc brakes, better crawl ratio, ATRAC (or, even better, A-TRAC on 2009 Trail), rear locker (2009 Trail) over a 3rd gen. For me, the 3rd gen was excellent off-road, but sucks on-road. The 4th gen made massive improvement on-road while still retaining most of the off-road capability (and in the 2009 Trail Edition, surpassing any stock 4runners before it).

better crash stats but weaker frame, you know you can improve the crash rating from better crumple zones and just by design alone, it doesn't necessarily mean thicker steel and better materials...

just one example
Motor Mount/Frame Failure - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum
btw that truck is 3 years old....

search there are lots of stories about rust and frame issues on the 4th gen, a vehicle that's 10 years newer then the taco's and the other ones your talking about, if your comparing a truck that is 10 years newer and they both have the same amount of rust what would you think?

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/tsb/5...ns-table-contents-4th-gen-toyota-4runner.html

various rust tsb's here as well.

again 10 year difference.


as for the t-case thing, I'm not even a big fan of the vsc and trac systems in the later 3rd gens either, managing any sort of 4x4 system with applying breaks is pretty fake imo,

but that's a personal preference thing, but generally speaking the 3rd gen has a better 4wd system, there maybe 1 model that can compete with the vast majority of the 3rd gens, you know what I'm saying the number of years a e-locker was added to the 3rd gen vs the number of years that got it in the 4th gen, that column goes to the 3rd gens.

and that's the thing_ like i said at the end you can build any truck to anything you want, and there will always be that 1 trail edition model or one competing model between generations to keep people hooked but when talking about this stuff and trying to remain objective you got to speak in generalities, and i still feel that my original statement is correct regardless of my reasons, that GENERALLY speaking the 3rd gen is better for off road and the 4th gen is better on road, from the box.



do you really think that the quality of things being made has gone up over time? wow....lol j/k
i just feel like everything is made of crap now, my t-shirts have gotten thinner same with my jeans, remember when a $20 pair of levi's weighed like 5-8 lbs because they were so thick? now a days same jeans,same cut,same price, 1/3 of the weight....and this can be seen across the board and it truly is an engineering thing.....

but back to the main argument/debate whatever you want to call it,

i think the fact here is like i said
generally speaking from the box, the 3rd gen is better for off road and the 4th gen is better for on road. there are a few exceptions but generally speaking that's how it is.

i feel that any points or reasons beyond that statement become conjecture and/or opinion, and the funny thing is that's my opinion of the matter so who's too say i'm right? it's just how i see it and feel that I'd be agreed with from a majority of people out there, but heck i could be wrong as well....
the only thing i do know is that a 4runner is better then a jeep grand Cherokee, i don't think anyone would argue with that.....:frog:

again
green vs blue
which one is better?

 

[DocMT]

I had both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen. They were both awesome, but the 4th gen has far more power (and mine is a V6) and much better ride & handling. The interior seems more roomy too.

I don't think I'd ever go back to a 3rd gen again, even though it's a great vehicle. The improvements on the 4th gen are just to great to ignore. The 5th gen still isn't growing on me at all, so I'll hold on to my 4th gen until I see what Toyota has in store for the 6th gen. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Toyota keeps the body-on-frame and solid rear axle in the 6 gen, but I guess you never know. The 6th gen is still far away at this point.

 

[Thai]

better crash stats but weaker frame, you know you can improve the crash rating from better crumple zones and just by design alone, it doesn't necessarily mean thicker steel and better materials...

just one example
Motor Mount/Frame Failure - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum
btw that truck is 3 years old....

search there are lots of stories about rust and frame issues on the 4th gen, a vehicle that's 10 years newer then the taco's and the other ones your talking about, if your comparing a truck that is 10 years newer and they both have the same amount of rust what would you think?

as for the t-case thing, I'm not even a big fan of the vsc and trac systems in the later 3rd gens either, managing any sort of 4x4 system with applying breaks is pretty fake imo,

do you really think that the quality of things being made has gone up over time? wow....lol j/k

Actually, according to Toyota's PDF when the 4th gen came out in 2003, toyota stated that the 4th gen's frame is thicker and has one more crossmember i believe.

Yup, i remember BlairB's issue. Isolated? I don't know. The rust issue on the Tacoma/Tundra is a lot more severe than anything that i have seen on a 4th gen. We're talking about frames breaking/rotting due to rust...have not seen any of that kind of rust on a 4th gen. Have you?

ATRAC is proven...every off-roader nowadays has it...and is becoming more and more appreciated by off-roaders. Does it beat a locker? No. But it is far better than an open axle.

VSC is also proven for on-road safety...and will be mandated on every vehicle by 2012. IIHS has plenty of data to support it being as important or more so than ABS itself. Same with side curtain airbags, etc..

The last part is interesting. Although i agree with you on some parts that newer stuff is cheaper...but you have to take a look at the whole picture. Newer cars have more technology and safety features which leads to interior plastics being cheaper...all to keep the price the same as the old days. There are plenty of exceptions. For example, i know that the 3rd gen Prius is both more technologically superior AND has higher quality interior than the previous gen. And you stated yourself:

went straight to the 5th gen because it would appear that the original toyota quality is back!

But, overall, i can understand your viewpoint...but until you experience the benefit of ATRAC firsthand, you are blinding yourself to something that does actually work. Remember, i am a lover of both ATRAC and lockers (since my previous G-wagen had both)...so, i am not bias to one or ther other. I know that a few folks on here have converted after seeing what a ATRAC (or, even better, A-TRAC) can do off-road in conjunction with a locker.

 

[JB.]

3rd gen comes with greater t-case

I have no desire to get into the details of the whole discussion, but the specific transfer case claim is just bizarre. The 4th gen transfer case is its single most distinguishing feature. 4WD, center locked or unlocked, in hi or lo range. Unlocked utilizes an extremely durable, capable Torsen-C diff which makes the unlocked modes useful in both hi and lo. Lock/unlock is quick and easy at any speed. Plenty of things to recommend a 3rd gen, but forget about the transfer case.

 

[theizzardking]

We're talking about frames breaking/rotting due to rust...have not seen any of that kind of rust on a 4th gen.

atrac
and is becoming more and more appreciated by off-roaders.

VSC is also proven for on-road safety...


The last part is interesting. Although i agree with you on some parts that newer stuff is cheaper...but you have to take a look at the whole picture. Newer cars have more technology and safety features which leads to interior plastics being cheaper...all to keep the price the same as the old days. There are plenty of exceptions. For example, i know that the 3rd gen Prius is both more technologically superior AND has higher quality interior than the previous gen. And you stated yourself:

newer cars.....
the thing about the 3rd gen pruis and 5th gen 4runner is that they have to do that imo, after they screwed up the previous renditions, otherwise they start losing customer support and sales when word leaks out that their product is on par with Chrysler. you know what i'm saying it's not always a down hill trend, well it is on a long enough scale but it does pop back up again from time to time, such as when there's law suits and epic complaints that are severely damaging profit margins. bottom line is that google returns 18K hits for "3rd gen rust" 4runner
and
16K hits for "4th gen rust" 4runner
i know not the best way but it's a good over view, that rust issues have only been brought up 2k more times on a 10 year newer truck is pretty bad, even if it's just people complaining about rusty bolts, you get those people with the 3rd gens as well. by no means is this undebatable proof, but you have to admit there is something to that.

as for the as trac systems, no doubt they are becoming more popular but they are not quite there yet, more parts='s more things to break and harder time fixing it. and again personal preference.
but i would put a truck with a locker and mech run 4x4 system against a trac electronic based system in a duel to teh death any day of the week and have my money on the mech run system, there's a reason why expedition vehicles are still running the older trucks when support might be an issue.

vsc/atrac 2
many people with vsc and trac in the 3rd gen disable it, due to fear of dying
lol, i'm not quite comfortable with it yet, and that's really is just a personal thing. it could just be the 3rd gens systems and the fact that i work as a mech engineer that i don't feel as confident in a electronic system as i do a mech system.
but i really do feel a mech system of the same equivalent will be better then the electronic system, the mech equal to the newer atrac system would be a dual t case with front ,rear lockers and cable brakes. like they use in the hard core rock buggies.




but again all personal preference on my part there, and same could be said for your liking of the e-controlled systems.

i just think if you took every single stock 3rd gen and every single stock 4th gen regardless of options and trim level put them on a trail both would surely die on ,the larger majority of the 3rd gens will get further down that trail then the 4th gens, again just trying to point out the generalities here,
i mean generally speaking do you think the 4th gen is better in every way then the 3rd gen? if so that's pretty fan boy, or is it just that hard to admit that i'm right in the most broad general speaking terms? lol, you know what i'm saying?

it either has to be that i'm wrong and the 4th gen is better in every single way regardless of trim options or anything, every 4th gen is better then any 3rd gen ever made

or that i'm right and in the "broadest" "most general" terms the 3rd gen 4runner is better off road then 4th gen and that's it's strong point over the 4th gen so far.....

no way am i going to argue road comfort by saying well you could change the shocks and swap out the seats and put a nice hd in there and it's just as good, that makes for re****ed arguments...
or bring up some rare model and try to argue that one model with a limited production run against a common production model that is readily available
again re****ed arguments emerge...

i don't know what else to say , if you don't agree with me fine if you do cool, it's just the world through izzard colored glasses i guess, lol

 

[Thai]

theizzard, one small correction...ATRAC does not really use any additional parts other than a more advance ECU and 4-channel ABS unit (vs. 3-channel on your 4runner). ATRAC (along with VSC) uses existing parts to perform its duties. (Actually, in VSC, you need a G-sensor and other electronic dodads to measure understeer and oversteer, but you get my point.) So, in essence, an ATRAC vehicle would not be any less durable nor reliable than a vehicle with ABS. Now, if you don't believe that ABS is reliable and durable, then you got me there!

 

[THEROK]

the harkening back to the good ol' days of manufacture needs to just stop in the land of commodities esp mass produced commuter/utility vehicles that is the 4R.

it's myopic, ignorant, and simple minded in the worst way.

the very same company that made your 3rd gen made the 4th and now the 5th. don't make them like they used ta? wth is that supposed to mean? that since the early 2000s toyota hasn't implemented technological advancements and innovations created/bought/baked through its vast R&D budget? that they somehow blooded in "good enough" into its corporate culture?

the 4th gen is the superior car to the 3rd gen and if not for the world's renewed focus on extricating itself from our dependency on finite resources like oil, we'd still be looking down at a fuel thirsty (silky) v8 under the hood of the 5th.

if the locker is the best thing you can come up with, well then, have fun with this:

cuz i'd rather be in front of these

 

[theizzardking]

Actually if you want to use the abs analogy that's great , what is cheaper ,easier , and less likely to break ?

A 1970's truck with disc breaks all around operated by cables , everything brand new ?

Or a
New abs system on any given truck ?


My moneys on the old truck for sure .

Abs was solely invented for people who can't drive , not for any reliability issue, it's still common for people to disable that as well.

So yeah it may be safer for the.average user but it's not as reliable as a simple.cable.system , sensors pick up dirt , wires can short ect and there is no quick fix, heck in my old van I used my shoelace as a throttle cable.to limp home , try that now.a days .....

Honestly a kiss style mechanism will always beat a computer operated.system even if they use the same parts you have to have extra controllers in the electrical system .

Again that's just me and to be honest what we're taking about here isn't that big of.a deal , it's not as if this stuff matters much if your running trails on the weekend or just trying to go skiing or something ....but if your trying to drive across Africa that's another ..

I don't think many would disagree the less computers and wires the better in that situation .

Heck alot of 4th gen guys swap their cases out with cable.pull atlases for more Reasons then just the lower gear .

That said and from the conversation I feel a bit better about the trac system in the 4th gen, but again I still give the edge to the 3rd gen for stock off road ability .

 

[theizzardking]

the harkening back to the good ol' days of manufacture needs to just stop in the land of commodities esp mass produced commuter/utility vehicles that is the 4R.

it's myopic, ignorant, and simple minded in the worst way.

the very same company that made your 3rd gen made the 4th and now the 5th. don't make them like they used ta? wth is that supposed to mean? that since the early 2000s toyota hasn't implemented technological advancements and innovations created/bought/baked through its vast R&D budget? that they somehow blooded in "good enough" into its corporate culture?

the 4th gen is the superior car to the 3rd gen and if not for the world's renewed focus on extricating itself from our dependency on finite resources like oil, we'd still be looking down at a fuel thirsty (silky) v8 under the hood of the 5th.

if the locker is the best thing you can come up with, well then, have fun with this:

cuz i'd rather be in front of these

Lol,

1. Good enough is uttered far more then you'd expect , you obviously don't understand how manufacturing works, otherwise everything would be cheap made like a rock and never break , you always have to build to a budget and materials haven't got any cheaper so you tell me how that works out , is toyota just eating the price difference in steel from 1998 to present , sticker price for both trucks was are the same from new .


2. Nice dash looks good but what does that have.to do with off roading ? The only contention I made with the 3rd gen regarded stock off road ability....

3. Cool you believe in global warming and peak oil , here's a gold star...or are.you trying to compare 10 year old truck on gas milage ?
Who in their right mind would argue that ? Do you also want to compare the 4runner to a pruis ?


Im not saying 4th gens are bad and not to buy.one if it suits you , I'm saying for me I like the 3rd and 5th gens, why in the heck do I care.what you drive ?
The 4th gen owns the 3rd in some regards and not in others, fuel usage , power, a bunch of things.
And you can believe it or not but besides the 4th gen section of the forums the 3rd gen is considered more capable off road from the box , I know I'm not the only one who.shares this view point , in fact I would say it's the general point of view that's out there and.sure you can always argue against that , but this conversation isn't anything new .

These better threads.are stupid.as it's all choice , I just got sucked in here because johns gay and can't make valid points lol

Sorry john , haha

 

[THEROK]

Lol,

1. Good enough is uttered far more then you'd expect , you obviously don't understand how manufacturing works, otherwise everything would be cheap made like a rock and never break , you always have to build to a budget and materials haven't got any cheaper so you tell me how that works out , is toyota just eating the price difference in steel from 1998 to present , sticker price for both trucks was are the same from new .


2. Nice dash looks good but what does that have.to do with off roading ? The only contention I made with the 3rd gen regarded stock off road ability....

3. Cool you believe in global warming and peak oil , here's a gold star...or are.you trying to compare 10 year old truck on gas milage ?
Who in their right mind would argue that ? Do you also want to compare the 4runner to a pruis ?


Im not saying 4th gens are bad and not to buy.one if it suits you , I'm saying for me I like the 3rd and 5th gens, why in the heck do I care.what you drive ?
The 4th gen owns the 3rd in some regards and not in others, fuel usage , power, a bunch of things.
And you can believe it or not but besides the 4th gen section of the forums the 3rd gen is considered more capable off road from the box , I know I'm not the only one who.shares this view point , in fact I would say it's the general point of view that's out there and.sure you can always argue against that , but this conversation isn't anything new .

These better threads.are stupid.as it's all choice , I just got sucked in here because johns gay and can't make valid points lol

Sorry john , haha

coming from stanwood, your ability to write and comprehend suits you.

i'm not even going to begin to talk about supply chain mgmt, streamlined business processes, nor anything else related to manufacturing a mass produced vehicle because you've provided enough for me not to with your point #1. WAHHAAH internet man.

these cars weren't designed for the .001% of owners who offroad their 4Rs. they're sold to work well on pavement and marketed to those aspirations (not people) to get out in the wilderness to see some dirt.

given the breadth of utility to meet the needs of the typical 4r buyer (families), the 4th gen is the superior truck compared to the 3rd. aside from the whole engine discussion (v8 v. v6), i like the 5th gen better. the v6 in the 3rd gen is not even in the conversation.

so you skipped the 4th gen. good. the 3rd gen was never even on the radar for me cuz it's just too dated.

so if we're to debate the merits of both gens as a complete body of work, it's clear that the 4th gen is an absolute upgrade to the 3rd. the 5th gen is not as much a leap, but it is an improvement over the 4th.

 

[Thai]

Actually if you want to use the abs analogy that's great , what is cheaper ,easier , and less likely to break ?

A 1970's truck with disc breaks all around operated by cables , everything brand new ?

Or a
New abs system on any given truck ?


My moneys on the old truck for sure .

Abs was solely invented for people who can't drive , not for any reliability issue, it's still common for people to disable that as well.

Hmmm, i thought that we're comparing a 3rd gen vs. a 4th gen???? As far as i know, all 3rd gens have ABS. My point is that the addition of ATRAC on a 4th gen does NOT mean the addition of much hardware, if any at all!! The difference is the requirement of a 4-channel ABS system, which coincidentally also improve ABS function vs. the old 3-channel system. And i think that there are plenty of African trucks and SUVs with ABS....

But, since you mentioned ABS vs. none, you do realize that ABS does things that NO HUMAN CAN DO, even if he/she has all 4 feet! ABS is NOT just for people who can't drive, as you suggested. That is a fairly short-sighted statement IMO...and seems to imply that you do not understand why ABS is so vital. (I hope that i am wrong.) You need to read up on what ABS does and how it is far better than any old system based on human reaction and foot power.

Most people that disables ABS are folks that go off-roading. (My old G-wagen disabled ABS whenever the lockers locked.) But, even nowadays, this becomes less of a necessity because modern ABS has special programming to read the terrain and thus adjust how aggressive it locks up the brakes. Example? Just look at the Land Cruiser ABS system. Otherwise, the idea of disabling ABS for on-road use is plain idiotic and ignorant IMHO. So, no, i disagree with you about how "common" folks disable ABS! :wtf: