5th Gen Jury Still Out

[Jeremy556]

Some did but that was soooooo long ago that the Internet was nicer and more respectful (except on Pirate4x4). :smashputer:

We must be remembering a different Internet, or you weren't on usenet newsgroups.

 

[ToyotaDoodz]

We must be remembering a different Internet, or you weren't on usenet newsgroups.

I started on dial-up BBS's @ 1,200 baud before there was a WWW, then Genie and Compuserve. Yes there were some Usenet groups that were more lively than others.:becky: Most of my Usenet participation back then was on software testing. It was still nice because you had to have a clue just to get connected, then AOL happened and it all went down hill from there.

I remember participating in a group buy for a first ever brand new blazing fast U S Robotics v.42 bis 14,400 modem for the great price of $768. Big and black and fast. I still have it some where.

 

[philsey]

....
I remember participating in a group buy for a first ever brand new blazing fast U S Robotics v.42 bis 14,400 modem for the great price of $768. Big and black and fast. I still have it some where.

Pffft ... 300b acoustic coupler FTW.

 

[Canazes9]

My 5'2" wife doesn't need all of the vertical travel in our 5th Gen. She was also able to adjust the seat height w/o a lesson....

David

 

[Jeremy556]

I started on dial-up BBS's @ 1,200 baud before there was a WWW, then Genie and Compuserve. Yes there were some Usenet groups that were more lively than others.:becky: Most of my Usenet participation back then was on software testing. It was still nice because you had to have a clue just to get connected, then AOL happened and it all went down hill from there.

I remember participating in a group buy for a first ever brand new blazing fast U S Robotics v.42 bis 14,400 modem for the great price of $768. Big and black and fast. I still have it some where.

Hayes>USR.

I'm typing this on the keyboard that came with my IBM PS/2

 

[ToyotaDoodz]

Hayes>USR.

I'm typing this on the keyboard that came with my IBM PS/2

LOL, it's just now getting broken in assuming the letters are still readable on the keys. Just turn it upside down and shake out the wildlife occasionally . . . .

 

[JB.]

Don't fool around with the 5th Gen. Everyone knows that the 4th Gen was the best 4Runner ever. Just buy one of those and be done with it and keep it forever. Don't believe me? Go to the 4th Gen section and ask lol.

.....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]'s sarcasm aside, I personally find the 4th Gens to be slightly better than the 5th gens in some respects.

-The lack of upgrading to the 1UR-FE 4.6L V8 drivetrain that underpins the GX460 was a large strike against it in my book. This was instead replaced with the 2TR-FE 2.7L I4 for a single model year due to impending CAFE Standards (a ridiculous mistake that should never have been made, but was rectified after a single model year)

-As was the 2014 styling refresh (I still believe the artists should be hung for their lack of proper design competence in that respect)

-The lack of the Torsen T3 Center Differential across all trim levels was another big strike against the 5th Gen, a step backwards in my eyes.

-The de-contenting that was done to the 5th gen combined with the price hike for such lack of features only raised other red flags to me. Things like the lack of a window switch on the keyfob (they could have fixed the age old issue and given a Down AND up option, but instead they removed it completely), the Hold-Start features being completely removed, ect.

-The transmission & engine programming being centered more for fuel efficiency which results in some awkward shift points & engine response. Some members (including myself) have even noticed that sometimes the 5th Gen feels slower than its 4th Gen brother with the SINGLE VVTi 1GR-FE 4.0L V6.

-The 20" dub-step Wagon Wheels... did I mention the 20" dub-step Wagon wheels on a 4WD SUV? (Which is also probably why they seem taller than the 4th gens since many 5th Gens come standard with 18" and 20" rims, we all know the easiest way to increase ground to differential height is physically taller tire/wheel combos.)

-The interior is not as comfortable as the 4th Gens; buttons, dials, and other objects seem just out of reach or in places they shouldn't be (window switches for example, though the 4th gen's windows switches are far too low also.) This leads to a both comfortable feeling sitting in the 5th Gen, but uncomfortable feeling when trying to adjust or do anything in the vehicle itself. Ergonomically the 5th gen tends to be a wash for me compared to the 4th gen which aside from a couple nit picks feels more well thought out in placement.

~

In conclusion does this mean I HATE the 5th gen? No not at all, I strongly considered purchasing the 5th gen when they came out and had they brought out the 1UR-FE 4.6L Drivetrain and Torsen T3 Center Differential equipped model I'd forgive all the transgressions of the 5th gen.

Its a good 4Runner and while some major and minor issues make it feel like it takes 2 steps forward, but one step back; it still is a good successor to the 4Runner name. I don't think its significantly better than the 4th gen (no where near enough to justify the price hike vs. the 4th Gens in my honest opinion), but it is an improvement in many respects that most consumers won't notice. The 4th gen mechanically had some better features that helped make its 4WD system one of the most flexible systems around for its price point, the 5th gen seems to have taken a wobbly stance on that with the heart of that system being gutted by Toyota. But many creature comforts were added as well as well as some improvements to the vehicle (the 1GR-FE Dual VVTi being a big plus in my book, while the KDSS being sort of a wash in my eyes to be honest...)

The big take-away here is that while the 5th Gen isn't neutered as a 4WD Vehicle, but it was clear that Toyota was more concerned about making it appealing as a mall-crawler/soccer mom Mid-Line Luxury SUV than a serious Off-Road contender. Its not a bad 4Runner and if it is your first 4Runner, you'll be happy and you probably won't ever notice its shortcomings. But many people on this forum have owned at least a 4th Gen or even a 3rd Gen and do take their vehicles off-roading regularly; this is where many of those gripes and nit picks come from. Its mainly from a place of feeling as though the 4Runner name is inevitably doomed to becoming another mainstream "Luxury SUV" built on a Unibody with a AWD system that can barely handle more than a pebble infested driveway.

So, in conclusion:

-The 4th Gen feels like a better, albeit more "soft" looking package in terms of Luxury, Off-Road Flexibility, and 4Runner name

-The 5th Gen is an incremental, but stated improvement to the 4Runner name that feels over-priced due to obvious cost-cutting and focus drawn away from its 4WD roots (but not enough to neuter it in a significant manner.)

So we can all gang up on the UniBody 4Runner Owners when they come out and tease the about how their 4Runners are crap knock-offs.

 

[smallfry]

Just got back from test driving a SR5 since the dealer didn't have any trails and truth be told the test drive didn't help sway me one way or another.

I was able to get the seat adjusted properly so it felt right and visibility wasn't as bad as I thought out the back. It's a lot quieter and comfortable on the freeway but didn't feel overly peppie. I still didn't care for the overall bulkiness of the interior some of the layout of buttons and such.

It's a nice ride but I'm still not sure. Maybe because I've had a 3rd gen for so long so it feels like it fits me better.

I'll probably revisit it again when I'm completely back from Colorado and see where I go from there.

The test drive gave me a few things to think about.

 

[Slowgoat]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]'s sarcasm aside, I personally find the 4th Gens to be slightly better than the 5th gens in some respects.

-The lack of upgrading to the 1UR-FE 4.6L V8 drivetrain that underpins the GX460 was a large strike against it in my book. This was instead replaced with the 2TR-FE 2.7L I4 for a single model year due to impending CAFE Standards (a ridiculous mistake that should never have been made, but was rectified after a single model year)

-As was the 2014 styling refresh (I still believe the artists should be hung for their lack of proper design competence in that respect)

-The lack of the Torsen T3 Center Differential across all trim levels was another big strike against the 5th Gen, a step backwards in my eyes.

-The de-contenting that was done to the 5th gen combined with the price hike for such lack of features only raised other red flags to me. Things like the lack of a window switch on the keyfob (they could have fixed the age old issue and given a Down AND up option, but instead they removed it completely), the Hold-Start features being completely removed, ect.

-The transmission & engine programming being centered more for fuel efficiency which results in some awkward shift points & engine response. Some members (including myself) have even noticed that sometimes the 5th Gen feels slower than its 4th Gen brother with the SINGLE VVTi 1GR-FE 4.0L V6.

-The 20" dub-step Wagon Wheels... did I mention the 20" dub-step Wagon wheels on a 4WD SUV? (Which is also probably why they seem taller than the 4th gens since many 5th Gens come standard with 18" and 20" rims, we all know the easiest way to increase ground to differential height is physically taller tire/wheel combos.)

-The interior is not as comfortable as the 4th Gens; buttons, dials, and other objects seem just out of reach or in places they shouldn't be (window switches for example, though the 4th gen's windows switches are far too low also.) This leads to a both comfortable feeling sitting in the 5th Gen, but uncomfortable feeling when trying to adjust or do anything in the vehicle itself. Ergonomically the 5th gen tends to be a wash for me compared to the 4th gen which aside from a couple nit picks feels more well thought out in placement.

~

In conclusion does this mean I HATE the 5th gen? No not at all, I strongly considered purchasing the 5th gen when they came out and had they brought out the 1UR-FE 4.6L Drivetrain and Torsen T3 Center Differential equipped model I'd forgive all the transgressions of the 5th gen.

Its a good 4Runner and while some major and minor issues make it feel like it takes 2 steps forward, but one step back; it still is a good successor to the 4Runner name. I don't think its significantly better than the 4th gen (no where near enough to justify the price hike vs. the 4th Gens in my honest opinion), but it is an improvement in many respects that most consumers won't notice. The 4th gen mechanically had some better features that helped make its 4WD system one of the most flexible systems around for its price point, the 5th gen seems to have taken a wobbly stance on that with the heart of that system being gutted by Toyota. But many creature comforts were added as well as well as some improvements to the vehicle (the 1GR-FE Dual VVTi being a big plus in my book, while the KDSS being sort of a wash in my eyes to be honest...)

The big take-away here is that while the 5th Gen isn't neutered as a 4WD Vehicle, but it was clear that Toyota was more concerned about making it appealing as a mall-crawler/soccer mom Mid-Line Luxury SUV than a serious Off-Road contender. Its not a bad 4Runner and if it is your first 4Runner, you'll be happy and you probably won't ever notice its shortcomings. But many people on this forum have owned at least a 4th Gen or even a 3rd Gen and do take their vehicles off-roading regularly; this is where many of those gripes and nit picks come from. Its mainly from a place of feeling as though the 4Runner name is inevitably doomed to becoming another mainstream "Luxury SUV" built on a Unibody with a AWD system that can barely handle more than a pebble infested driveway.

So, in conclusion:

-The 4th Gen feels like a better, albeit more "soft" looking package in terms of Luxury, Off-Road Flexibility, and 4Runner name

-The 5th Gen is an incremental, but stated improvement to the 4Runner name that feels over-priced due to obvious cost-cutting and focus drawn away from its 4WD roots (but not enough to neuter it in a significant manner.)

So we can all gang up on the UniBody 4Runner Owners when they come out and tease the about how their 4Runners are crap knock-offs.

:thumb3:

Good post.

 

[rick.deckard]

All good points. As a subculture, we aren't Toyota's primary demographic for the 4Runner, or any other vehicle they make. I don't know how well the FRS is doing, and with the retirement of the FJ I think they continue to focus on extracting maximum profit while limiting the number of lower volume vehicles.

The problem I experienced when I was deciding to purchase was "purchase what?" if it isn't a 4Runner. I don't want to pay $70K for a Land Cruiser, and they're just too damn big now. GX460? It's even uglier than the 2014 4Runner. Crazy ugly. And it's $10K+ more than a 4Runner. I don't want a Taco. So, the choice makes itself if you want a Toyota, unless you want to buy used.

 

[Jeremy556]

The big take-away here is that while the 5th Gen isn't neutered as a 4WD Vehicle, but it was clear that Toyota was more concerned about making it appealing as a mall-crawler/soccer mom Mid-Line Luxury SUV than a serious Off-Road contender.

Put the crack pipe, down. Frame reinforcements, manual transfer case lever, locking rear diff, much stronger rear diff, these are mall crawler parts? Center diff is important for the soccer mom crowd, who can't be bothered with a traditional 4WD system. How many dedicated trail rigs do you see being fitted with center diffs? That's right, not a single damn one.

You can still get the torsen center diff in a 5th gen, just have to get the soccer mom-oriented limited edition.

I see a lot more stock 5th gens on the trails in Moab and Ouray than 4th gens, though I do see the occasional, sweet, built 4th gen. 1-3rd gens outnumber the rest by a large margin.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Put the crack pipe, down. Frame reinforcements, manual transfer case lever, locking rear diff, much stronger rear diff, these are mall crawler parts? Center diff is important for the soccer mom crowd, who can't be bothered with a traditional 4WD system. How many dedicated trail rigs do you see being fitted with center diffs? That's right, not a single damn one.

You can still get the torsen center diff in a 5th gen, just have to get the soccer mom-oriented limited edition.

I see a lot more stock 5th gens on the trails in Moab and Ouray than 4th gens, though I do see the occasional, sweet, built 4th gen. 1-3rd gens outnumber the rest by a large margin.

A manual lever that requires an electronic system to engage and manage still for all applications (the VF2, VF2BM, and VF4BM transfer cases still use a 4WD ECU to manage the ADD for the front axle, so its still partially electronically controlled.) The frame reinforcement I still would like to see better data on how significant it is as dimensionally the 150 is almost the same as the 120 in about every measurement. I'm sure some metallurgical improvements have been made, but from all the Toyota documentation I have seen, you should be able to bolt a 4th Gen cab to a 5th Gen frame with no issues at all as they appear almost identical from a structural standpoint.

You're right about the center differential in terms of dedicated trail rigs, but many people don't use their trucks JUST for trails. You're confusing flexibility for capability; I said the center differential was what made the 4th gen's 4WD very flexible, something can can be appreciated in situations where you don't need to go full-Rubicon all the time. If we're talking about 4WD capability we might as well start complaining about a lack of Solid Front Axles and manual hub locks. Also the VF4BM in the Limited only uses a Torsen T1 Center Differential.

The 5th Gen Rear is still the same as the old units last I checked (the E-Locker units are slightly different than the live units), they haven't been changed as far as I was aware (still using the V6/Turbo 8" unit if I remember right for the non-locking units); not to mention the E-Lockers seem to be more prone to pinion shearing last I read (haven't seen one yet though, but I remember FJ guys mentioning it.) The locking rear differential was also available on old 4th Gen Trail Editions as well. The front clamshells are also carry-overs from the 4th gens, which are slightly smaller than the 4WD V8's unit.

If we want to nit pick stuff, that is.

 

[sandcrawler]

The 5th Gen Rear is still the same as the old units last I checked (the E-Locker units are slightly different than the live units), they haven't been changed as far as I was aware (still using the V6/Turbo 8" unit if I remember right for the non-locking units);

no, it isn't. and to [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION]'s point, Toyota upgraded the 5G's rear axle to a stronger 8.18" ring gear, -vs- 7.87" for the 4th Gen. this doesn't read as "mall-crawler" pandering to me.

The locking rear differential was also available on old 4th Gen Trail Editions as well.

c'mon, the '09 Trail Edition was so rare it was a unicorn farting rainbows; only a handful made. if anything, it was a single model year's teeny-tiny prelude to Toyota's recommitting to the 4Runner's roots with the 5G redesign. now the Trail Edition is actually produced in numbers and every single one has a factory e-locker and lever-actuated VF2A transfer case. again, this doesn't read as "mall-crawler" pandering to me.

also, i can't put the finest point on it, but the couple hundred pounds the 5G gained over the previous Gen is almost certainly due in part to the 150 platform frame reinforcements referenced ad nauseam. i don't know whether you could bolt a 4G body to a 5G frame (ew, IMHO) but i'm sure the reinforcements were to avoid further issues like the fender cracks with the FJ. again, i don't think Toyota did this in case Buffy hit the curb outside Macy's.

honestly, i think you've got this whole thing upside-down. you're the first person i've seen invoke the "decontenting" trope in years, in fact. seems to me that Toyota did a good job segmenting the 2010+ SR5, Trail, and Limited trims into specific customer-targeted packages, whereas the 4G was pretty much the same across all trims. (also, only 4G's had 18" OEM wheels.) i don't see these "price hikes" you speak of, as 4Runner pricing has remained nearly flat stretching back to the 90's.

big changes: no standard Torsen, no 2UZFE V8. it's been done to death, and not the least of which by yours truly. i do think, in trade, Toyota delivered a pretty well conceived and executed product that represents a compelling upgrade for 4G owners like yourself when Father Time finally insists upon a break from the past.

If we want to nit pick stuff, that is.

precisely. :nerd:

 

[tired_old_dave]

Thanks for this thread. I don't need a new vehicle now. The H3 doesn't even have 100k miles on it. Guessing the Borg Warner center diff clutches won't be a problem. I just don't want to decide in a year to grab a last bof 4x4 or the rumored unibody with a di motor and maybe with a turbo.

I didn't think about the front axle until the ADD was mentioned in a thread. Assume the vacuum part is gone. Learned about torque sensing diffs in the early eighties. Does the 4runner have a T1 and the GX a T3. What's the difference.

This has me leaning to a base GX and installing a rear locker. Don't think I want the new improved ARB or one with clutches. I remember correctly or incorrectly Pewe driving a land cruiser and getting stuck. He lamented the tires and lack of rear locker. Shouldn't the trail model be limited to 99mph and come with the lightest LT possible for strength and least strain of the front end.

The JKUR and H3 both came with load range c tires. Both jeeps had unset e brake from the factory and stupid cable designs for the transfer case and emergency brake.

 

[tired_old_dave]

Oops I did it again. Both jeeps=kj crd and jkur.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

no, it isn't. and to [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION]'s point, Toyota upgraded the 5G's rear axle to a stronger 8.18" ring gear, -vs- 7.87" for the 4th Gen. this doesn't read as "mall-crawler" pandering to me.


c'mon, the '09 Trail Edition was so rare it was a unicorn farting rainbows; only a handful made. if anything, it was a single model year's teeny-tiny prelude to Toyota's recommitting to the 4Runner's roots with the 5G redesign. now the Trail Edition is actually produced in numbers and every single one has a factory e-locker and lever-actuated VF2A transfer case. again, this doesn't read as "mall-crawler" pandering to me.

also, i can't put the finest point on it, but the couple hundred pounds the 5G gained over the previous Gen is almost certainly due in part to the 150 platform frame reinforcements referenced ad nauseam. i don't know whether you could bolt a 4G body to a 5G frame (ew, IMHO) but i'm sure the reinforcements were to avoid further issues like the fender cracks with the FJ. again, i don't think Toyota did this in case Buffy hit the curb outside Macy's.

honestly, i think you've got this whole thing upside-down. you're the first person i've seen invoke the "decontenting" trope in years, in fact. seems to me that Toyota did a good job segmenting the 2010+ SR5, Trail, and Limited trims into specific customer-targeted packages, whereas the 4G was pretty much the same across all trims. (also, only 4G's had 18" OEM wheels.) i don't see these "price hikes" you speak of, as 4Runner pricing has remained nearly flat stretching back to the 90's.

big changes: no standard Torsen, no 2UZFE V8. it's been done to death, and not the least of which by yours truly. i do think, in trade, Toyota delivered a pretty well conceived and executed product that represents a compelling upgrade for 4G owners like yourself when Father Time finally insists upon a break from the past.


precisely. :nerd:

I've looked over the body repair manuals and been staring at many 5th gen frames in the air for a while now, there's no significant changes to the frames externally in terms of bracing, structural additions, ect. The 120 platform and the 150 platforms are near identical, so if there are changes its in the metallurgy and possibly the thickness of the frame rail metal in one or two sections. I'd still like to see data that suggests what they changed, is it 5%, 10%, ect. stiffer in one section or what? A large majority of the weight gain on the 5th gen is creature comforts, larger body, and such, which isn't too surprising in that respect.

I do agree Toyota did a great job of segmenting the 4Runner, dropping the Sport in favor of the Trail was a good idea in marketing. The price difference for throwing in a cheaper manual lever transfer case (that still needs the 4WD ECU to engage the ADD, thus the system is still prone to electronic faults) in the Premium isn't that ridiculous; though it isn't any stronger than the other VF family as they are all roughly the same in drive.

The axles I need to look into myself as I was pretty sure they hadn't changed much if at all, but the TIS information is a bit wonky in that area.

I still like the 5th Gen, just not enough to upgrade is all. I want to play with a TRD Pro unit if we get one, they look nice.

 

[smallfry]

Well, the jury decided and verdict is too wait.

I decided for the time being I'm going to keep my 3rd gen unless something major happens. I think it be wiser to finish paying off my credit card and my student loan before taking on a car payment. Once, those two are taken care of then I'll pick back up on the search.

 

[ant-ny]

That sounds like a very responsible decision. Good for you.