97 Limited 5 speed swap

[toyotaspeed90]

Well... after our 1997 SR5 manual was in an accident and deemed a total loss by their insurance... we were on a hunt for a manual but needed a 2nd car quickly.

We bought an 06 RX400h as it fit the bill and was very close in price to what insurance gave us.

We were pretty sure we would just fix our SR5 and just leave some of the damage.... but then a 97 limited, in white, with lower miles and very clean (but with a rod knock) came on the market at a good price.


So, instead of half fixing the body (I dislike body work) I'm going to swap the mechanicals.


The plan will be to pull the engine, trans, and J shift transfercase(and the driveshaft, most peripherals, and even our new/perfect radiator) and drop them into the limited.

Before I sell anything (locally) I'll compare some of the harnesses. There are some splices into the engine harness on the limited I don't like so I plan to swap the engine harness/ecu from the sr5.

I know that the limited probably has some variation due to the AT and the partially electric transfercase but is the body/ecu plug completely different?

I'm by no means new to electrical/swaps, especially with Toyotas so if there is some wiring I'm not concerned (a few examples... had an 86 more that I swapped in a 91 mr2 engine/trans without so much as cutting the 86 body harness and making it plug/play, an 87 MR2 on megasquirt that was built in 2004.. a 1990 corolla that had a smallport 4age running quite well on a modified 4afe ecu/jdm 4age bigport dizzy and some ignitor tomfoolery). I've also had more cars (mostly Toyota) than I like to admit.

Is there links for some electrical diagrams if there's much variation? I wouldn't mind taking a peek as I'm just in the disassembly of the Limited phase.

Thanks.

 

[phattyduck]

Since you have both trucks, the swap should be doable.

The '97 Limited will have the push-button transfer case (push-button 4H, mechanical lever for H/N/L) that you will likely be eliminating for the fully manual case on the 5-speed... The extra wires/control between the dash and engine/trans harness and 4WD computer guarantee there will be at least some differences.

I'd suggest buying the '97 EWD from eBay or similar so you can study the physical diagrams and take notes. PM me your email and I can send you a digital copy of the '97 diagrams too...

-Charlie

 

[St Runner]

The issue will be the 4wd. The limited also has 6 ends on the engine harness and the SR5 and the base model have 5( I am guessing that ithe 6th plug is the transfer case 4wd wiring) The plugs that don't go into the ecu on the engine harness are the same on both the auto and manual. My suggestion would be to run the manual engine, transmission, transfer case and engine harness. Then take the wiring to the 4wd button on the limited transfer case shift lever and run it to a button on the dash. 4wd will be engaged with the dash button and the only thing the j shift transfer case will do is low range.

 

[toyotaspeed90]

I'm confused. The J shift is mechanical high 4wd and low 4wd, is it not? I can always wire a switch or even wire the (assumen it has one) 4wd switch (which is common on landcruisers) which is just a 2 wire on/off that tells the electronics it's in 4wd....?

 

[St Runner]

The 4wd switch engages the front diff on the limited and the 2001-2002. The j shift engages the front diff when you put it in 4 high. The limited and j shift are always locked at the transfer case but the 2001-2002 is unlocked at both the transfer case and front diff until you hit the buttons. Because the front diff is engaged by the switch on the limited it is easier to move the switch to the dash than trying to get it engaged off the j shift transfer case. There is probably also more than 2 wires as it also activates the light on the dash. It will be easier just to keep the system intact and just move the wires that run to the transfer case 4wd button

 

[toyotaspeed90]

That doesn't make any sense to me still, maybe there is something I'm missing.

Both rigs are a 97. When the J shift is shifted from 2wd to 4h or 4l, does it not 'engage' to output to the front diff mechanically? There's no locker in the front, so what is there to engage in the front?

The 80 series (93 triple locked) I had used a basic 2 wire switch identical to reverse switches. It's a roller ball switch that would be "switched" when moved to 4L - which was a basic way to send a looped signal to the locker computer (and the dash) to indicate 4L was engaged, thus the lockers could be engaged. I'm 90% sure I had to remove/inspect/clean similar switches on my 2001 LX. The 1988 AE95 had a front diff lock switch that was a simple 2 wire switch on the dash that controlled 2 VSVs thatbused vacuum to lock the center diff and when the transfercase locked, it had an internal 2 wire switch (same roller ball/reverse type) that would tell the dash it was locked. I'm pretty sure my old FJ62 had the same VSVs to engage the front as it had a separate switch to engage 4wd (but that's internal on the tranfercase).

Point being I'm not sure why Toyota would reinvent the wheel on the J-shift 4Runner.... I could be wrong but I assume the 4wd switch on the Limited is a switch that tells the 4wd computer to engage the motor and when it engages the motor in the transfercase- there would be a switch that translates back (a 2 wire roller ball type) that the motor did its job to engage the front drive in the transfercase.

I'm under the assumption that the J shift does something similar, but I could be wrong.

Are you stating that by moving the J shifter theres no mechanical linkage and its electronic?

 

[phattyduck]

That doesn't make any sense to me still, maybe there is something I'm missing.

Both rigs are a 97. When the J shift is shifted from 2wd to 4h or 4l, does it not 'engage' to output to the front diff mechanically? There's no locker in the front, so what is there to engage in the front?

Are you stating that by moving the J shifter theres no mechanical linkage and its electronic?

St Runner is confusing you a bit...

There is an actuator on the front diff to engage it for 4WD operation. For the '96-'00 models, it is a vacuum actuator - and when it moves the position switch for that (the ball type you mention) is what actually turns on the switch in the dash for the j-shift type. So, no locker, but there is a shift collar that links the right axle to the right side of the diff output. That's the ADD system. For 01/02, that is an electric actuator - but of no concern here.

For the standard J-shift case (base/SR5 for '96-'00), The 2WD to 4WD is fully mechanical. When the 4WD switch indicates the transfer case is in 4WD, it engages the ADD Relay (passenger footwell) which powers the ADD VSVs which actuate the front diff.

For the push-button 4WD case (Limited, '96-'98), 4WD is engaged by pressing a button on the side of the 4WD shifter - there is no mechanical movement in the shifter to engage or disengage 4WD. The shifter button sends a signal to the 4WD ECU (driver's footwell), which runs the transfer case actuator. When it senses that the transfer case is fully shifted into 4WD, it actuates the ADD VSVs, waits for the ADD actuator to complete its movement, then the 4WD computer lights the 4WD indicator solid on the dash. Mechanical shifter positions are just H-N-L.

A little confusion happens with the '99/'00 Limited multi-mode case - it looks like a j-shifter, but the 2WD and 4WDL positions are not mechanically linked to anything in the transfer case other than position switches. The button on the side of that shifter is for the 'AWD' mode of the transfer case. All controlled by a 4WD ECU, again. The '01/'02 multi-mode system is basically the same, but uses a 4WD button again on the shifter for 4WDU, and a button on the dash to lock the center diff.

So, the issue here is that the Limited dash harness will be set up for a 4WD computer and transfer case actuator, and the SR5 dash harness will be setup for the simpler ADD relay. You can't swap dash harnesses due to the auto AC wiring.

It may be possible to fool the Limited ECU into thinking it is connected to the actuator, or you might have to use just a bit of your SR5 dash wiring (add Relay) to use the standard j-shift case. You could also move the Limited transfer case and its related wiring to your manual harness.

Your choice - that's why I suggest you get the diagrams and figure out what you are most comfortable with.

Since you have both trucks, you have all the parts you need - whichever way you choose to go.

-Charlie

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Ah, ok, that all makes sense.

I'm thinking a relay might be able to be used to activate the VSVs.

In the AE95 a problem I ran into was one went bad (athose are rare, so not cheap) and I wanted to control 2 VSVs via 2 relays but never got around to it. I could actually just swap vacuum hoses and engage the CDL (at least in that vehicle the switch only controlled the VSVs, if I manually moved the vacuum hoses the light o the 4wd selector (CDL) would light up independent of the switch. I'm guessing the 4runner is slightly more in depth than that.

However in my 93 FZJ I was able to simply jumper the 4lo switch without actually moving the transfercase into low to then test the lockers - meaning the systems weren't quite as intertwined as one might think.


I'll have to give it some thought- if the VSVs are simply controlled via power (or ground) then this seems like a lot of fuss for very little... or if I can just nab parts of the SR5 system and integrate it pretty easily then that seems like the best solution.



I'm curious about the auto AC (assuming auto climate?). I don't see any difference in climate controls and the SR5 has AC integrated into the defrost... is there actually an auto climate mode that's inherently built in? Toyota is usually pretty good about identifying the auto systems by either a separate button (mode) or labeling (like in the 85 mr2s having a different climate control completely that's controlled via an electronic servo on the heater valve... which was all done away with in 86-89 models for a mechanical system).

Our limited T4R seems to have a mechanical heater valve on both front and rear heaters, is this a vehicle that does auto climate via an electronically controlled flapper door?

 

[phattyduck]

I'm curious about the auto AC (assuming auto climate?). I don't see any difference in climate controls and the SR5 has AC integrated into the defrost... is there actually an auto climate mode that's inherently built in?

Oh shoot... that looks like a '99 upgrade. There were a few different types of AC/Heater controls through the years/trims.

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

Ah, ok, that all makes sense.

I'm thinking a relay might be able to be used to activate the VSVs.

In the AE95 a problem I ran into was one went bad (athose are rare, so not cheap) and I wanted to control 2 VSVs via 2 relays but never got around to it. I could actually just swap vacuum hoses and engage the CDL (at least in that vehicle the switch only controlled the VSVs, if I manually moved the vacuum hoses the light o the 4wd selector (CDL) would light up independent of the switch. I'm guessing the 4runner is slightly more in depth than that.

I've built a manual trans and auto trans Alltrac Camry... well versed in those VSVs on the car-based AWD systems. The VSV pair is actually very similar on the 4Runner - and can probably be swapped between the cars and 4Runners in a pinch.

The stock SR5 system uses a single multi-pole relay to do the job of switching vacuum for the front diff. All the wiring will be there in your SR5, you just need to use the bits you need.

And I took a look at the diagrams a bit... it looks like all signals of interest might be at the location where the 4WD ECU is, so you might be able to basically replace it with the ADD Relay from your SR5.

I used a '97 4WD SR5 donor 4Runner on my '99 2WD when I did the swap. I only had to run about 6 wires total to get the system to run completely like OEM...

-Charlie

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Curious on consensus....


Pull engine/trans/transfercase all as one unit or separate?

I would far prefer pulling as 1 unit....

But I had a 97 LTD parts rig that I pulled the engine/trans/transfercase and remember it being an extremely tight fit for the transfercase and firewall.... as in, I think the body actually took damage.

Thoughts? I've read both ways are easy.... I can do either and have the tools, but...

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Well.... transfercase came out pretty easily. Should have drained the transmission first... but seems easiest to drop the transfercase and then pull engine/trans together...


On the limited we have stripped the interior, so far, seats, carpet, center console, lower leg covers. Its surprisingly clean and we haven't even cleaned up yet.


The 5sp is still complete - waiting for the engine/trans from the limited to sell so that the host is free and I don't have to worry about pushing 2 vehicles around.

Have had several people flake out on actually coming to buy it now that it's out... irritated for sure.

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Old drivetrain gone....

Now I'm a bit shocked by what I see.

It isn't uncommon to have varying parts or wiring between trim levels...

Buy the body is literally stamped different between an SR5 and a limited.

The limited has a very different opening at the center console than the SR5.... the floor plans are literally stamped different instead of having a variation of something that simply bolts (or even rivets) in place.

Guess I'll be cutting it here soon...

 

[St Runner]

The 5speed and the limited will be different in the body opening for the transmission /transfer case. You will have to trim the limited body a little bit to get the manual transmission to fit. Not sure if the auto SR5 is different than the limited

 

[phattyduck]

2WD, 4WD and 4WD manual are all different around the tunnel opening. The reinforcement plate underneath and the hole for the shifter are different in each. It has nothing to do with trim, just drivetrain options.

Here's the 2WD vs. 4WD shifter area when I did my 2WD to 4WD swap, for reference (won't exactly help here - the 5-speed opening is just a single big hole):

Use a cutout of the 5-speed donor and use it for reference on the auto body.

-Charlie

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Yeah, that's what I was referencing. Cutting it isn't a big deal at all.

I'm just shocked Toyota did it this way. Usually they're more conservative, where it would make more sense to have the floor pan fit the biggest opening and then make steel adapters with rubber boots to fit the trim.

I'll get it all to work... it's what I do....

 

[phattyduck]

I'm just shocked Toyota did it this way. Usually they're more conservative, where it would make more sense to have the floor pan fit the biggest opening and then make steel adapters with rubber boots to fit the trim.

That's not my experience *at all*. Flat spot on the firewall for a clutch master? Sure... but there are plenty of incompatibilities between engine/trim/transmission versions of most Toyotas.

The Alltrac Camry that I have is literally 100% different through the WHOLE floor pan compared to a FWD Camry. From the bottom of the of the firewall back to the rear bumper.... Sheet metal, exhaust, suspension, wiring, gas tank... But from the outside of the car, you can't tell other than the badge on the trunk.

As opposed to Subaru - that uses the same firewall stamping for LHD and RHD with just different holes punched in it... and basically every part for any Impreza from '93 to '07 is cross-compatible.

-Charlie

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Well, the alltrac models are different beasts for all models... and the cost variation to make them (with their, assumed, lack of interest in the US) is probably a determining factor to axe them in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if the Camry shares a flooroan/platform with another Japanese model.

The AE95 is probably one of the better examples of this... it's an alltrac Corolla wagon. Except the alltrac wagon shares almost nothing with the fwd wagon (different body entirely, all lights, interior) save a few things like handles, cluster (etc). Most likely the sedan Corolla alltrac uses the same Carib floorplan.

This is also back in the day when Toyota made an insane plethora of trims of each model that overlapped other trims and models.

Example... in 1988 you could buy a 4 door fwd corolla with a carb'd 4af, an awd sedan with an EFI 4afe, a 2 door corolla coupe with a 4af, a "sports" 2 door Corolla GTS coupe with a 4age, an MR2 with a 4age (a 2 door sports car), I believe the ae82 FX16 was still an option in 1988, a variety of trim levels of a Celica (2 door sports car... in fwd and awd trims), a camry (variety of trim levels that shared engine platforms with the celica, in fwd and awd)... just to notate a few models.

Toyota became more conservative in their model line ups in the early 90s, right around 92/93 when the model changes took place. As you know the alltrac Camry was axed when the 92 model year switch happened with the Camry (though they did bring the 2 door as an option), but I wouldn't be surprised if they still had an alltrac model elsewhere in the world.

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Received the wiring diagrams (thanks Charlie) and most of the diagrams between the 4wd switch and "ADD" system are nearly identical. The junctions, ecu pins, wire colors are almost all the same.

The 4wd select switch actually ties to the same connections the transfercase detection switches connect to.

So... a switch can do 1 of 2 things and have 1 of 2 different results. A simple switch can:
Open current or close current

The results could be the signal received is ground (whether self grounded or through a system) or the signal received is voltage.

In this case it doesn't matter.

In both diagrams the constant is the W-B wire to the 3 transfercase detection switches... the only variation being the outputs on ADD run through the ADD relay to the VSVs and the 4WD ECU controls the transfercase and then outputs to the VSVs. The W-B is ground as notated on pin 8 of the 4wd ecu (and they all connect).

So, in short, the 4wd switch simply sends a ground to the 4wd computer on pin 5.

It also receives a ground signal on pin 6 from the transfercase 4wd detection switch.

So... if I plug in the manual sr5 harness and it seems that the 4wd detection works, then I simply would need to jumper pin 5 and pin 6. This would effectively tell the limited 4wd computer that the "4wd switch" is clicked when the J shift transfercase "detection" switch grounds out. It seems the junction location and wiring is almost all the same... almost.


Now I could be wrong, but I doubt the 4wd ecu will actually care if the transfercase motor exists or not. The ecu simply outputs a signal to the motor (probably in actuality 2, one for in and one for out) and stops trying when it gets ground from the 4wd detection switch.

We will see....

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Photos of the 2 vehicles, 2nd motor out today.

The 2 "detection" switches on the manual tranfercase a d the third on the adapter between trans/case