A/C issues

[stir_fry_boy]

Thanks. I just watched a video from Eric the Car Guy on recharging AC. The link you supplied didn't work but maybe it's the same one I just watched.

The big question I have is I wonder if DIY mechanics are actually taking their vehicle to a place that can reclaim the refrigerant and follow the EPA rules, or are they just vacuuming it out into the atmosphere. [MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION], I'm not expecting you to answer this question in a public setting.

Unless you actually had a leak or a failure of some part of the system and the refrigerant is already evacuated, you're technically suppose to reclaim the refrigerant, and then draw a vacuum to remove moisture from the system before you recharge it.

Since one of the main points of DIY Mechanics is to save yourself some money, I'm having a hard time believing people are actually going to pay a shop to properly reclaim the refrigerant.

Anyways, I guess I'm thinking out loud with this post but I'd be interested to hear from people who have brought their rig to a shop to evacuate the refrigerant to find out what they were charged for this service.

I fixed the link - sorry.

Initially I did take it to a jiffy lube or some place that did AC and they captured it for free. Call around and see who is willing to do it for free.

For the capture, It seriously takes 2 min for them to do it. Once the refrigerant is out, There is a lot of time standing around waiting for the pump to get all of the air out of the system, and recharging. Shops charge for the time your car is in the service bay.

 

[TheDurk]

Any chance you and [MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION] could recommend YouTube videos or point me to good write-ups on how to use the manifold gauges and vacuum to service the AC system? I think I'm going to buy that Harbor Freight gauge set both of you have and then grab that vacuum pump that [MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION] recommended on Amazon. I'm thinking maybe it would be good to get both from Harbor Freight since it will be much easier to return if something isn't working right or they break.

I'm also taking care of 3 vehicles and it would be nice to service the AC systems on them with more confidence than trusting those hokey gauges that come with the refrigerant.

First, some hard to find and essential resources. Here is the full chart that those can/gauge manufacturers were to lazy to put on their products and shows why those can/gauges are useless:

A/C System Performance Testing Part 1-MDH Motors | MDH MOTORS

Here is all you need to know about oil:

http://www.technicalchemical.com/techsupport/lubricantguide4.pdf

Ok, now, basic troubleshooting:

Troubleshoot Automotive Air Conditioning Problems

Troubleshooting with Gauges FAQ

Now, how to recharge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lglPJuBXVeE

Eric forgets to flush the yellow fill line by cracking the hose at the manifold and blipping the can valve until gas comes out before you start. This is best practice but maybe not essential. I would do it.

Forums/General info:

Automotive Air Conditioning Bulletin Board ? Index page

Car Air Conditioning Problem Diagnosis & Repair Help

Automotive Air Conditioning Information Server: Home

Automotive Air Conditioning Bulletin Board ? View forum - A/C Questions and Opinions

That should keep you busy.

 

[TheDurk]

Thanks. I just watched that video from Eric the Car Guy on recharging AC before I saw you responded to my post.

The big question I have is I wonder if DIY mechanics are actually taking their vehicle to a place that can reclaim the refrigerant and follow the EPA rules, or are they just vacuuming it out into the atmosphere. [MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION], I'm not expecting you to answer this question in a public setting.

Unless you actually had a leak or a failure of some part of the system and the refrigerant is already evacuated, you're technically suppose to reclaim the refrigerant, and then draw a vacuum to remove moisture from the system before you recharge it.

Since one of the main points of DIY Mechanics is to save yourself some money, I'm having a hard time believing people are actually going to pay a shop to properly reclaim the refrigerant.

Anyways, I guess I'm thinking out loud with this post but I'd be interested to hear from people who have brought their rig to a shop to evacuate the refrigerant to find out what they were charged for this service.

So far I have not faced that issue on the three full recharges i have done. Two of the cars involved total loss of refrigerant, one due to collision with a 'coon and the other an O-ring failure. The third was a new system install on a base model Hyundai born without A/c. So no need to recapture refrigerant on any of those. The other issue I was able to fix was electric issues on a tight system (a bad pressure switch that could be changed without losing refrigerant). The 4Runner needed a single top-up after sixteen years but does not have a real leak.

If I get faced with a compressor or expansion valve failure on a tight system or similar, yes, then I'll have to make that choice.

 

[mtbtim]

First, some hard to find and essential resources. Here is the full chart that those can/gauge manufacturers were to lazy to put on their products and shows why those can/gauges are useless:

A/C System Performance Testing Part 1-MDH Motors | MDH MOTORS

Here is all you need to know about oil:

http://www.technicalchemical.com/techsupport/lubricantguide4.pdf

Ok, now, basic troubleshooting:

Troubleshoot Automotive Air Conditioning Problems

Troubleshooting with Gauges FAQ

Now, how to recharge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lglPJuBXVeE

Eric forgets to flush the yellow fill line by cracking the hose at the manifold and blipping the can valve until gas comes out before you start. This is best practice but maybe not essential. I would do it.

Forums/General info:

Automotive Air Conditioning Bulletin Board ? Index page

Car Air Conditioning Problem Diagnosis & Repair Help

Automotive Air Conditioning Information Server: Home

Automotive Air Conditioning Bulletin Board ? View forum - A/C Questions and Opinions

That should keep you busy.

I reckon I will be busy reading all this info. Thanks a lot for supplying me with it.

 

[diverscale]

for your information to anyone who could be in that situation and looking for a basic troubleshoot before going into more complicated things:

My A/C was blowing warmish air, it didn't even feel cool at all, so much that most of the time it was just better off with windows down. Verified the pressure with a cheap gauge, it was ''good'' at approx 40-45 psi on the low pressure side and clutch was engaging.

So after a bit of troubleshooting, cleaning the condenser and evaporator, air would stay warm.

Finally my system was overcharged, that 40-45psi that seemed good was not, I had to discharge a large amount of freon, and you really don't need pressure gauges, just the front sight glass.

You have to get the right amount of freon so that there are bubbles in the sight glass, while the A/C clutch is engaged, at idle, and the bubbles shall disappear when you run the engine at approx 2K rpm (use the throttle body cable under the hood).

Now the A/C is blowing cold as new. Today it's 30 celcius, 38 with humidity, and the thing finally keeps me cool.

Lesson 1: overcharge = even warmer air than undercharge
lesson 2: sight glass is a better indication than low side pressure, so if you are overcharged, or undercharged, begin by adjusting your freon amount with this simple tool ready on the vehicle.

 

[apb2148]

for your information to anyone who could be in that situation and looking for a basic troubleshoot before going into more complicated things:

My A/C was blowing warmish air, it didn't even feel cool at all, so much that most of the time it was just better off with windows down. Verified the pressure with a cheap gauge, it was ''good'' at approx 40-45 psi on the low pressure side and clutch was engaging.

So after a bit of troubleshooting, cleaning the condenser and evaporator, air would stay warm.

Finally my system was overcharged, that 40-45psi that seemed good was not, I had to discharge a large amount of freon, and you really don't need pressure gauges, just the front sight glass.

You have to get the right amount of freon so that there are bubbles in the sight glass, while the A/C clutch is engaged, at idle, and the bubbles shall disappear when you run the engine at approx 2K rpm (use the throttle body cable under the hood).

Now the A/C is blowing cold as new. Today it's 30 celcius, 38 with humidity, and the thing finally keeps me cool.

Lesson 1: overcharge = even warmer air than undercharge
lesson 2: sight glass is a better indication than low side pressure, so if you are overcharged, or undercharged, begin by adjusting your freon amount with this simple tool ready on the vehicle.

Where is the site glass located


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cvc7chris]

i've been having issues with mine, it kicks on and them the clutch like stops and squeals

i would check to make sure the AC clutch is kicking on, fuses and if not check the connector to the AC compressor and see if its connected properly and go from there.

 

[diverscale]

Where is the site glass located


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is in front of the condenser (the front radiator), on the passenger side of the truck, between the grill and the condenser.

If you open your hood, look at your lower left, just beside the headlight. You'll have to clean the lens real good, and use a flashlight. The lens is approx 1/2 in diameter.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

for your information to anyone who could be in that situation and looking for a basic troubleshoot before going into more complicated things:

My A/C was blowing warmish air, it didn't even feel cool at all, so much that most of the time it was just better off with windows down. Verified the pressure with a cheap gauge, it was ''good'' at approx 40-45 psi on the low pressure side and clutch was engaging.

So after a bit of troubleshooting, cleaning the condenser and evaporator, air would stay warm.

Finally my system was overcharged, that 40-45psi that seemed good was not, I had to discharge a large amount of freon, and you really don't need pressure gauges, just the front sight glass.

You have to get the right amount of freon so that there are bubbles in the sight glass, while the A/C clutch is engaged, at idle, and the bubbles shall disappear when you run the engine at approx 2K rpm (use the throttle body cable under the hood).

Now the A/C is blowing cold as new. Today it's 30 celcius, 38 with humidity, and the thing finally keeps me cool.

Lesson 1: overcharge = even warmer air than undercharge
lesson 2: sight glass is a better indication than low side pressure, so if you are overcharged, or undercharged, begin by adjusting your freon amount with this simple tool ready on the vehicle.

The sight glass only provides a general idea of the undercharged status. No bubbles will pass if it's overcharged. You still don't know what the pressure is on the low or the high side (where the sight glass is). Some cars don't even have one - most Hondas. I wouldn't rely on the sight glass alone when it takes 2 minutes to hook up the gauges and see what it's doing.

My philosophy is if you are going to do it - do it right the first time and get the right tools. I sometimes just glance at the sight glass while the engine is running to see if any bubbles pass while revving it up a little. Then I get my gauges out if I do and add some freon if the high side is below 200 psi. Maybe every 2 years or so.

 

[diverscale]

The sight glass only provides a general idea of the undercharged status. No bubbles will pass if it's overcharged. You still don't know what the pressure is on the low or the high side

My philosophy is if you are going to do it - do it right the first time and get the right tools.

well, -obviously- you have to know, first, if you are over or undercharged. I used a cheap pressure gauge I already had to notice this.

jeesus, this simple procedure just saved me lot of time, and probably money, because it worked, and my A/C is blowing ice-cold, and wanted to share it, since I was not aware of this before, like probably many others, and I have my share of work on cars.

If this simple method works as in my case, well, great, not everyone want/have time to dig further. If it doesn't work, then go into more complicated troubleshooting, buy the tools, etc.

As the first sentence of my post said, and I verified that I had it underlined ''basic troubleshoot before going into more complicated things''. But even then, I guess that discrediting my post made you feel intelligent, then I am happy for you.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

well, -obviously- you have to know, first, if you are over or undercharged. I used a cheap pressure gauge I already had to notice this.

jeesus, this simple procedure just saved me lot of time, and probably money, because it worked, and my A/C is blowing ice-cold, and wanted to share it, since I was not aware of this before, like probably many others, and I have my share of work on cars.

If this simple method works as in my case, well, great, not everyone want/have time to dig further. If it doesn't work, then go into more complicated troubleshooting, buy the tools, etc.

As the first sentence of my post said, and I verified that I had it underlined ''basic troubleshoot before going into more complicated things''. But even then, I guess that discrediting my post made you feel intelligent, then I am happy for you.

Please don't take it personally. This forum is full of people that seek the absolute truth or best way to do something. Apologies if what was written came across demeaning. Certainly wasn't intended.

My view is that they shouldn't even sell those cheap low side only gauges. Hooking up a set of manifold gauges is a simple diagnostic step. The cheap low side only gauges only tells you half the story. Certainly not enough to make a diagnosis. While your method worked, and will work for anyone's system that is operating properly, the best way is to hook up a manifold gauge set. I rely more on the high pressure side than anything when charging or diagnosing an AC system. When charging a system, I actually only occasionally glance at the low side just to make sure the expansion valve is working properly. It's rare to have one go bad by itself. Knowing the pressure of the high side shows you how the compressor is working.

 

[amalik]

Please don't take it personally. This forum is full of people that seek the absolute truth or best way to do something. Apologies if what was written came across demeaning. Certainly wasn't intended.

My view is that they shouldn't even sell those cheap low side only gauges. Hooking up a set of manifold gauges is a simple diagnostic step. The cheap low side only gauges only tells you half the story. Certainly not enough to make a diagnosis. While your method worked, and will work for anyone's system that is operating properly, the best way is to hook up a manifold gauge set. I rely more on the high pressure side than anything when charging or diagnosing an AC system. When charging a system, I actually only occasionally glance at the low side just to make sure the expansion valve is working properly. It's rare to have one go bad by itself. Knowing the pressure of the high side shows you how the compressor is working.

Do you recharge even if everything is working OK? I mean you personally.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Do you recharge even if everything is working OK? I mean you personally.

Nope. Hooking up the gauges you loose a little bit of freon as well.

 

[01thunder]

take it to a shop and have it done right with the AC machine and gauges, if not done yet. nickel and diming with auto part store crap isn't worth it.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

take it to a shop and have it done right with the AC machine and gauges, if not done yet. nickel and diming with auto part store crap isn't worth it.

$800 in 2 hours isn't with it? Thats what we saved by replacing the compressor, condenser, drier, coolant, seals, then evac and recharge in my brothers TSX. It costs $1100 at the dealer, he spent $300 in parts.

I would disagree.

 

[TheDurk]

$800 in 2 hours isn't with it? Thats what we saved by replacing the compressor, condenser, drier, coolant, seals, then evac and recharge in my brothers TSX. It costs $1100 at the dealer, he spent $300 in parts.

I would disagree.

I'm with you. The obsession with these $3000 machines bothers me. Our family's first airconditioned car was a '66 Plymouth that you could keep meat in, that AC was so strong. Not only did computerized AC machines not exist then, computers didn't exist then (except for big data centers). People maintained AC systems just fine before those things came along for many years. I'm doing fine without one and saving a LOT of money..

 

[mtbtim]

[MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], I have an AC recharge question for you. Say for instance you have an AC system completely evacuated of refrigerant either due to a component replacement or you had a bad leak. You repair whatever and then you pull a vacuum and are ready to recharge. The FSM says to fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side with the engine off of course. They make it sound like you can fully fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side without every having to turn on the vehicle and get the compressor running. I've also read to fill via the High Side with liquid refrigerant (can upside down) until no more refrigerant will go in. Then you close the High Side, start the vehicle, turn the AC on full blast and finish filling via the Low Side.

I think every video I've watched regarding AC recharges always says to charge via the Low Side port. What do you guys think about this High Side recharge technique? It seems perfectly safe as long as you don't forget you can't turn the vehicle on with the High Side valve open.

The following question is for both of you guys and anyone else reading this post. Do you know of any nationwide shop, like Pep Boys, Firestone, or whoever that will do an evacuation and recovery of refrigerant for a free or a fair price? I called a local Jiffy Lube and they said they don't do that for people. I called a couple other independent shops with high Yelp reviews and one told me they don't do that for people and the other said sure, they'd do it for $90. $90 bucks to do 2 minutes of work? One of the main reasons to invest money in AC tools is to save yourself money in the long run. If you can't find a reasonable price to recover the refrigerant properly, you're left with the choice to either get bent over or do it the illegal way and evacuate it into the atmosphere. Now, I know an evacuation and recovery is only going to be needed when you've either found a slow leak and you want to fix it now rather than waiting for it to completely leak out on it's own or you have a failed component, like a compressor and you need to evacuate the refrigerant before removing and replacing the part. I'm just thinking ahead in case I'm ever in this situation.

 

[TheDurk]

[MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], I have an AC recharge question for you. Say for instance you have an AC system completely evacuated of refrigerant either due to a component replacement or you had a bad leak. You repair whatever and then you pull a vacuum and are ready to recharge. The FSM says to fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side with the engine off of course. They make it sound like you can fully fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side without every having to turn on the vehicle and get the compressor running. I've also read to fill via the High Side with liquid refrigerant (can upside down) until no more refrigerant will go in. Then you close the High Side, start the vehicle, turn the AC on full blast and finish filling via the Low Side.

I think every video I've watched regarding AC recharges always says to charge via the Low Side port. What do you guys think about this High Side recharge technique? It seems perfectly safe as long as you don't forget you can't turn the vehicle on with the High Side valve open.

The following question is for both of you guys and anyone else reading this post. Do you know of any nationwide shop, like Pep Boys, Firestone, or whoever that will do an evacuation and recovery of refrigerant for a free or a fair price? I called a local Jiffy Lube and they said they don't do that for people. I called a couple other independent shops with high Yelp reviews and one told me they don't do that for people and the other said sure, they'd do it for $90. $90 bucks to do 2 minutes of work? One of the main reasons to invest money in AC tools is to save yourself money in the long run. If you can't find a reasonable price to recover the refrigerant properly, you're left with the choice to either get bent over or do it the illegal way and evacuate it into the atmosphere. Now, I know an evacuation and recovery is only going to be needed when you've either found a slow leak and you want to fix it now rather than waiting for it to completely leak out on it's own or you have a failed component, like a compressor and you need to evacuate the refrigerant before removing and replacing the part. I'm just thinking ahead in case I'm ever in this situation.

I've never had to recharge the 4Runner, just the other cars in the family fleet I take care of. I've just topped it up. I didn't even know about the high side thing. I'll take a look at the FSM but I have no experience doing it that way. I'd probably do it the way I know how which is from the low side with engine running.

Yeah, the recovery thing is an issue. All my recharges have been done to empty systems, so I haven't faced the issue yet. I know my local junk yard couldn't care less. If a car has a full system and you want a compressor or whatever, they just let it vent. Probably illegal but...

 

[stir_fry_boy]

[MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], I have an AC recharge question for you. Say for instance you have an AC system completely evacuated of refrigerant either due to a component replacement or you had a bad leak. You repair whatever and then you pull a vacuum and are ready to recharge. The FSM says to fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side with the engine off of course. They make it sound like you can fully fill the system with refrigerant via the High Side without every having to turn on the vehicle and get the compressor running. I've also read to fill via the High Side with liquid refrigerant (can upside down) until no more refrigerant will go in. Then you close the High Side, start the vehicle, turn the AC on full blast and finish filling via the Low Side.

I think every video I've watched regarding AC recharges always says to charge via the Low Side port. What do you guys think about this High Side recharge technique? It seems perfectly safe as long as you don't forget you can't turn the vehicle on with the High Side valve open.

The following question is for both of you guys and anyone else reading this post. Do you know of any nationwide shop, like Pep Boys, Firestone, or whoever that will do an evacuation and recovery of refrigerant for a free or a fair price? I called a local Jiffy Lube and they said they don't do that for people. I called a couple other independent shops with high Yelp reviews and one told me they don't do that for people and the other said sure, they'd do it for $90. $90 bucks to do 2 minutes of work? One of the main reasons to invest money in AC tools is to save yourself money in the long run. If you can't find a reasonable price to recover the refrigerant properly, you're left with the choice to either get bent over or do it the illegal way and evacuate it into the atmosphere. Now, I know an evacuation and recovery is only going to be needed when you've either found a slow leak and you want to fix it now rather than waiting for it to completely leak out on it's own or you have a failed component, like a compressor and you need to evacuate the refrigerant before removing and replacing the part. I'm just thinking ahead in case I'm ever in this situation.

I've never filled via the high side. Everything I've read says not to do it. Once you evacuate, the pressure switch won't allow the compressor to turn on until you have reached the minimum threshold. All I do is start the car, turn AC on full blast, and fill always via the low side. If the truck is off, it won't matter which side you fill on because there is no difference in pressures between the high and low. Not sure why the FSM states this. There also is no way you could fill the entire system without the truck running and filling via either side.

As far as the recovery, you are correct, $90 is crazy. I would keep calling around.

 

[kball]

$90 isn't even a full hour charge these days so it sounds about right to me. If they have to use their equipment and hook up to your car and run that pump for 30-60min, it's taking up a spot in their garage that could have another customer in there.